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Post by aquacat on Oct 15, 2023 21:55:57 GMT -5
I really hope it’s not a negative thing going on with her.
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Post by worksforme2 on Oct 16, 2023 5:49:35 GMT -5
Had sex again today. Can't remember sex two weeks in a row except when we were trying to conceive. The train is still on the rails and I'm not quite sure why. If you figure it out be sure to post your thesis. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 16, 2023 10:48:01 GMT -5
That's quite unusual for someone to have an about-face like that out of the blue.
You mentioned a few things going on in her life, including a renewed interest in fitness.
Is there anyone new in her life who she has to associate with frequently?
Any change in her attentiveness to her phone - the amount of time she spends on it?
Any change with respect to her sense of privacy, regarding her phone or her time?
Does she slip anyone into her mentions more than before, or is anyone new popping up on her social media, liking her posts?
Does she go out more now than she did? Any changes - particularly with weekly social commitments?
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Post by aquacat on Oct 17, 2023 21:19:47 GMT -5
That's quite unusual for someone to have an about-face like that out of the blue. You mentioned a few things going on in her life, including a renewed interest in fitness. Is there anyone new in her life who she has to associate with frequently? Any change in her attentiveness to her phone - the amount of time she spends on it? Any change with respect to her sense of privacy, regarding her phone or her time? Does she slip anyone into her mentions more than before, or is anyone new popping up on her social media, liking her posts? Does she go out more now than she did? Any changes - particularly with weekly social commitments? This is what I was alluding to but didn’t want to come out and say it. I’ve read about this behavior where the one spouse will do an about face and initiate intimacy more because of outside influences. I sure hope that’s not the case here. |
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 18, 2023 6:32:10 GMT -5
That's quite unusual for someone to have an about-face like that out of the blue. You mentioned a few things going on in her life, including a renewed interest in fitness. Is there anyone new in her life who she has to associate with frequently? Any change in her attentiveness to her phone - the amount of time she spends on it? Any change with respect to her sense of privacy, regarding her phone or her time? Does she slip anyone into her mentions more than before, or is anyone new popping up on her social media, liking her posts? Does she go out more now than she did? Any changes - particularly with weekly social commitments? This is what I was alluding to but didn’t want to come out and say it. I’ve read about this behavior where the one spouse will do an about face and initiate intimacy more because of outside influences. I sure hope that’s not the case here. The man is getting laid and all anyone thinks to do is make him paranoid. Enjoy the ride, Musack. Figure stuff out later. Unless you're not averse to divorce and live in Georgia, Hawaii, Illinois, Mississippi, New Mexico, North Carolina, South Dakota or Utah. Then maybe collect the goods, and keep that powder dry. |
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Post by worksforme2 on Oct 18, 2023 7:03:44 GMT -5
In the moment, I feel great. I had been praying for patience and change for quite a while. I am cautious, but trying to he optimistic. If this path continues, awesome. If it doesn't, it was still a great night to remember. You might have some ability to encourage the turn about. I probably do not need to tell you to stroke your W's ego by telling her how good the sex makes you feel. Compliment her frequently during the love making. Women need to be made to feel they are desired. Emotions generally play a larger role in making sex happen for women than for men. A bit of encouragement at the right time can be the coin that tips the scales. Happy for you both....wfm2 |
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Post by csl on Oct 18, 2023 7:03:47 GMT -5
This is what I was alluding to but didn’t want to come out and say it. I’ve read about this behavior where the one spouse will do an about face and initiate intimacy more because of outside influences. I sure hope that’s not the case here. The man is getting laid and all anyone thinks to do is make him paranoid. Enjoy the ride, Musack. Figure stuff out later. Unless you're not averse to divorce and live in Georgia, Hawaii, Illinois, Mississippi, New Mexico, North Carolina, South Dakota or Utah. Then maybe collect the goods, and keep that powder dry. Amen! Like I told shynjguy a couple years ago. we are told that it takes 90 days (or is it 45?) for an action to become a habit, so give her the 90 days. Those of you who were here remember that his wife DID do a complete turnaround |
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 18, 2023 12:13:20 GMT -5
This is what I was alluding to but didn’t want to come out and say it. I’ve read about this behavior where the one spouse will do an about face and initiate intimacy more because of outside influences. I sure hope that’s not the case here. The man is getting laid and all anyone thinks to do is make him paranoid. Enjoy the ride, Musack. Figure stuff out later. Unless you're not averse to divorce and live in Georgia, Hawaii, Illinois, Mississippi, New Mexico, North Carolina, South Dakota or Utah. Then maybe collect the goods, and keep that powder dry. Ya, mirrororchid , that's all I think about. Because this forum is just chock a block with people who suddenly spun their marriage on a dime like that for no apparent reason. How about, I've had this happen to me, and couldn't comprehend how I'd missed it in hindsight. Before I arrived at this forum and its predecessor, I found cause to seek support on infidelity forum (which I don't recommend). But, while I can't vouch for the advice and victim wallowing I found there, I did find some common patterns that matched to what I discovered the hard way was happening in my own "sexless marriage". That's why this raised my eyebrow, and that's why I posed questions rather than advice. In my situation, I had alarming answers to ALL those questions at once, had I ever taken stock. I'm simply suggesting to take stock. I wish that I had done so. |
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 19, 2023 6:09:25 GMT -5
The man is getting laid and all anyone thinks to do is make him paranoid. ...Figure stuff out later.... Ya, mirrororchid , that's all I think about. Because this forum is just chock a block with people who suddenly spun their marriage on a dime like that for no apparent reason. How about, I've had this happen to me, and couldn't comprehend how I'd missed it in hindsight. ... I did find some common patterns that matched to what I discovered the hard way was happening in my own "sexless marriage".... that's why I posed questions rather than advice. In my situation, I had alarming answers to ALL those questions at once... I'm simply suggesting to take stock.... Fair enough! The typical emotional response is seething rage as one digs. I'd rather think that if the suspicions are born out, you hold all the cards and it is a time to embrace every possibility. You can stay, outsource, or leave and no one could judge. If an affair brought about warm feelings for you, take the good with the bad. It may not even be "bad". Maybe just disappointing and sad at first. It would be a key to the prison of sexless marriage. You open the door and walk out if you wish. You don't have to walk out, but if you can... it makes prison a lot less miserable. You may want to break the key off in the door, just in case the warden thinks you can get locked up again. Just cuz you're staying doesn't mean you ever agree to stay against your will again. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 19, 2023 9:48:04 GMT -5
If an affair brought about warm feelings for you, take the good with the bad. It may not even be "bad". Maybe just disappointing and sad at first. It would be a key to the prison of sexless marriage. You open the door and walk out if you wish. You don't have to walk out, but if you can... it makes prison a lot less miserable. You may want to break the key off in the door, just in case the warden thinks you can get locked up again. Just cuz you're staying doesn't mean you ever agree to stay against your will again. Sex can be a wonderful thing, and where I agree with you is that you can get to a point of low esteem in a dysfunctional marriage in which the lift that comes from someone finding you attractive is like rainfall in a desert. It gives hope to the hopeless. I had some version of that too. But, I would have had that irrespective of whether it occurred during separation or in an open relationship. Where I differ is that I think the focus on getting sex is a false goal -close to the target, associated with the target, correlated. You might get sex in your life, and that's nice, but it doesn't solve the problem of the sexless marriage - which is really a dysfunctional relationship. I think the focus should be more on getting to the truth of the relationship. If you get to the truth of the relationship and knowing all the facts, you choose open relationship - then great. If you don't get to the truth of a relationship, then it's likely the lie and conflicts will continue to be expressed within the context of the new relationship format. In an open relationship where trust is particularly important, this can be very destructive. You could have an affair and keep the open part of the relationship a secret, but this just delays the consequence and adds deception to it. It can be unpredictable, and doesn't solve the problem of the marriage. |
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listedship
Junior Member
Posts: 38 
Age Range: 41-45
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Post by listedship on Oct 19, 2023 15:33:49 GMT -5
I have been away from this forum for 5 years. Tried everything I can possibly think of to change my situation.
You gave me a moment of hope.
There is the possibility of change.
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 19, 2023 17:59:34 GMT -5
...I think the focus on getting sex is a false goal -close to the target, associated with the target, correlated. You might get sex in your life, and that's nice, but it doesn't solve the problem of the sexless marriage - which is really a dysfunctional relationship. I think the focus should be more on getting to the truth of the relationship. If you get to the truth of the relationship and knowing all the facts, you choose open relationship - then great. If you don't get to the truth of a relationship, then it's likely the lie and conflicts will continue to be expressed within the context of the new relationship format. In an open relationship where trust is particularly important, this can be very destructive. You could have an affair and keep the open part of the relationship a secret, but this just delays the consequence and adds deception to it. It can be unpredictable, and doesn't solve the problem of the marriage. All valid, but I think we may disagree about sexless marriages always being about something else bigger. In at least some cases the sexlessness is the worst part. Every other annoyance can be overlooked or effectively addressed, worked around, or tolerated when one isn't steeped in physical frustration. A great many relationships are dysfunctional, but not intolerably so. They stick together, with sex or without. The dysfunction, compounded by sexlessness will be worse. Restore the sex and you may manage stability where you otherwise would not. The truth can be that the marriage isn't perfect, but the sexlessness makes in intolerable. To say that sexlessness is never at the heart of doomed marriages is to empower the refusers who claim the refused spouse's demands for sex was what broke the marriage up. Otherwise it would have been fine. You've noted getting sex elsewhere while in a bad marriage can make the dysfunction all the more stark. The better parts of your life are not owed to the marriage. It detracts rather than nourishes. Outsourcing can demolish bad marriages in a hurry. In contrast a sexless marriage caused by untreatable medical condition may truly be great except for the sex. These are rare, sure, but they would not lend themselves to changing much by any search for "the truth". I know that isn't your thrust, but lesser examples could apply the same logic. Earlier I'd said a lot of marriages do not get to the point of resentment. Let me downgrade that to "many" And I speak of those that come saying "Everything is great except the sex." Those rays of hope represent, to me, affection for the refuser and desire to stay married; these two are not conducive to resentment. Of course, such refused spouses can grow in their resentment. Such resentment can trigger divorces. We've surely seen it many times. My phrasing was, frankly, wildly inaccurate and you were right to take exception. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 20, 2023 8:29:32 GMT -5
All valid, but I think we may disagree about sexless marriages always being about something else bigger. In at least some cases the sexlessness is the worst part. Every other annoyance can be overlooked or effectively addressed, worked around, or tolerated when one isn't steeped in physical frustration. A great many relationships are dysfunctional, but not intolerably so. They stick together, with sex or without. The dysfunction, compounded by sexlessness will be worse. Restore the sex and you may manage stability where you otherwise would not. The truth can be that the marriage isn't perfect, but the sexlessness makes in intolerable. To say that sexlessness is never at the heart of doomed marriages is to empower the refusers who claim the refused spouse's demands for sex was what broke the marriage up. Otherwise it would have been fine. You've noted getting sex elsewhere while in a bad marriage can make the dysfunction all the more stark. The better parts of your life are not owed to the marriage. It detracts rather than nourishes. Outsourcing can demolish bad marriages in a hurry. In contrast a sexless marriage caused by untreatable medical condition may truly be great except for the sex. These are rare, sure, but they would not lend themselves to changing much by any search for "the truth". I know that isn't your thrust, but lesser examples could apply the same logic. Earlier I'd said a lot of marriages do not get to the point of resentment. Let me downgrade that to "many" And I speak of those that come saying "Everything is great except the sex." Those rays of hope represent, to me, affection for the refuser and desire to stay married; these two are not conducive to resentment. Of course, such refused spouses can grow in their resentment. Such resentment can trigger divorces. We've surely seen it many times. My phrasing was, frankly, wildly inaccurate and you were right to take exception. That's an interesting perspective, and it's one I used to share. I don't think it's wrong per se. To convince me though, if you wanted, you'd need to address a couple items: 1. The WHY: The latent, unnamed reason the partner doesn't want sex with you. It hangs over the whole relationship. It's heavy. There IS a reason. It's likely because they no longer see you as a viable partner, and THAT happened for a reason too. It may not be fair, or the right reason. It might not even be correct. But it's real enough to them to change behaviour - to change the way they THINK and feel about their spouse. Even if it's not addressed directly, it is felt by both partners. 2. If the person doesn't want to have sex with you - and they DON'T - then how do you propose them going about sex they don't want to have, with a partner they don't want it with? What kind of sex is that going to be? If it's just a matter of using an acquiescent partner as a tool, well... I could do that myself. If contempt isn't already present and the cause for the disconnection, doing this is a great way to arrive there. 3. Many relationships and partnerships may exist without the sex component but they aren't exactly marriages. I'd want to understand on both sides and get full agreement on how whatever this sexless marriage relationship is, is different from an amicable or close separation. How is it different from the ex-wife you get along with? |
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 23, 2023 7:59:59 GMT -5
That's an interesting perspective, and it's one I used to share. I don't think it's wrong per se. To convince me though, if you wanted, you'd need to address a couple items: 1. The WHY: The latent, unnamed reason the partner doesn't want sex with you. It hangs over the whole relationship. It's heavy. There IS a reason. It's likely because they no longer see you as a viable partner, and THAT happened for a reason too. It may not be fair, or the right reason. It might not even be correct. But it's real enough to them to change behaviour - to change the way they THINK and feel about their spouse. Even if it's not addressed directly, it is felt by both partners. 2. If the person doesn't want to have sex with you - and they DON'T - then how do you propose them going about sex they don't want to have, with a partner they don't want it with? What kind of sex is that going to be? If it's just a matter of using an acquiescent partner as a tool, well... I could do that myself. If contempt isn't already present and the cause for the disconnection, doing this is a great way to arrive there. 3. Many relationships and partnerships may exist without the sex component but they aren't exactly marriages. I'd want to understand on both sides and get full agreement on how whatever this sexless marriage relationship is, is different from an amicable or close separation. How is it different from the ex-wife you get along with? 1 and 2. Dr. Pyschmom calls attention to the phenomenon of "responsive desire" to women who are under teh impression that "the mood" must be present at all times. The WHY? can be physical and born of ignorance of physiology and the nature of the Coolidge effect. "The mood" is sometimes a decision, not a natural inevitability. Other times, there can be an empathic rupture that is unforgiven. The identification, disclosure, and resolution can rectify the rupture and allow for re-bonding or dissolution of the marriage, which is another way to fix an SM. A spouse who cannot be forgiven should be discarded. If the marriage is not to be discarded, the spouse must be forgiven. That is why abusive marriages must not be encouraged. It's okay top leave a bad mistake. To take it to a less idealistic level, if sex becomes engaging. The refuser does their best for the sake of the marriage and the refused finds this willful sexuality adequate, the distaste for sex may not need to be respected. Basically, ignore it. This could vary in it's unhappy repugnance. If the wish not to have sex stems from personal religious upbringing or trauma the refuser isn't responsible for, this may be a matter of the refuser getting their head straight, or...merely acknowledging that forcing their refused spouse to put up with their neuroses is not a better solution than their being coerced into overriding their distaste. The capacity to overcome their hesitance may affect their ability to fully engage their spouse, so the whole enterprise could prove rickety. Do you want the marriage to stay intact? It may require things of you that you'd prefer not to do, but you'd prefer them over divorce. The WHY? may not be reason enough and the imperfect effort may be adequate to the cause. Not saying I'm happy about these sexless marriage "cures", but it may move a marriage from miserable to meh. 3. Marriages without sex may be between senior citizens or asexuals where it was never a priority to begin with. Why did they get married in teh first place. Do we declare their marriages null without sex? How is it different besides teh property rights, hospital visitation, automatic inheritance, etc? Maybe we ask gay people in the 1990's. In a situation where the refused takes a lover because of medical conditions of teh refuser, do we say all other commitments are inadequate to dub a marriage? If teh medical condition is an acknowledged lack of libido and the refused's lover is accepted gratefully, are all teh other ties and commitments (children?) no longer enough to label the social contract a "marriage"? Are all those same commitments inadequate if the refused has no lover and is merely wistful? Frustrated but resigned? Furious and consulting a lawyer? Taken a lover on the sly or out in the open, but without approval? The "getting along with" part may or may not be in play. I think I may be talking past some of your points. I beg your pardon. We can dissect some points if you wish. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 23, 2023 8:58:27 GMT -5
1 and 2. Dr. Pyschmom calls attention to the phenomenon of "responsive desire" to women who are under teh impression that "the mood" must be present at all times. The WHY? can be physical and born of ignorance of physiology and the nature of the Coolidge effect. "The mood" is sometimes a decision, not a natural inevitability. It's a distinction without a difference if the decision is always No. As a single man, I can tell you that I and other women I've dated are both readily able to have "why not?" sex, with a hit rate higher than zero. But what about a spouse who cannot be forgiven but who has not made a mistake. I think this is far more common. There comes a point in every relationship where you come to realize that the fantasy of the person you met is replaced with a real person. Here's a real life example. Mrs Apocrypha had an unsatisfactory childhood and family life - and this would be apparent to anyone hearing the tale. By her own word, she thought getting married to me would somehow manifest what she'd missed, especially with kids. She projected her tyrannical and somewhat insane father's persona on to me, especially with any hint of a lack of capability, or any difference in disciplinary style between us, though we differed by degrees. Whatever warmth toward feeling of a home and family she thought would happen in marrying someone like me, did not magically materialize as if it was a gift to her. In the years of therapy she often referred to her disillusionment about that failing to materialize, and blaming me for not knowing everything. Like I'd planned this whole adventure, convinced her to go, and then stranded us. She realized, out loud in therapy that this wasn't exactly fair to me. She realized I was only human, and a new parent as well, and that I wasn't actually a tyrant at all in nearly any way like her father - but it DIDN'T MATTER - because that's not how it felt to her. Her heart couldn't catch up and sift one thing from another. At some point, we all realize we are married to a real person instead of a fantasy. You don't actually have to be abusive or awful to find yourself painted that way. I thought in therapy that her realization at how terribly unfair and mistaken she'd be was the light at the end of the tunnel. It was just the train, because she found she COULDN'T forgive me, but also, I hadn't actually DONE anything to warrant the size of forgiveness she'd have to offer - and by that time, she'd already had an affair and years of enforced celibacy on me. It doesn't tie off neatly like a sit-come, where the puzzle is solved and everyone moves forward. The issue, I think in most of these cases isn't so much the sex itself, but rather how they feel about the person they are having it with. That's not something to ignore. I think that because it's common at the end of marriages to go through a few years of thinking they don't enjoy sex, only to discover sex again with a new partner. In my prolific dating years, I've seen this quite a lot. I think this is an impractical comparison for 99% of the cases on here. If sex was never a priority, then why come here and complain about it. There are a few senior citizens here, but they aren't generally complaining about it because they are old. What's being expected most of the time is that someone at age 20-40 is being asked to effectively fall into an oath of celibacy rather than monogamy. Things may change at 70 years old - could be. But at least you'd have lived a life with sexual expression instead of missing the entire thing. Do you see the difference I'm posing here? There aren't any marriage police checking bedrooms here - our declarations of null and void don't matter. What we are dealing with is people who are hurting and wondering what to do, worried they are going to leave something important behind. I think it's reasonable for health to fail in the senior years and for lifestyle changes to appear as a result of health reasons. But if it's celibacy across your prime years, it's likely NOT health reasons. |
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