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Post by csl on Sept 22, 2023 7:29:29 GMT -5
If you haven't already you need to talk about your feelings on the lack of sex. She may not realize how important the sex is to you. I recently had this conversation with my wife. I'm hoping that now that she knows how important it is, she may make efforts to change her stance on sex. If months go by and there's still no effort on her part to "compromise" as she puts it, I know that from here on out if I stay, it'll be as friends, nothing more. I already had this talk with her in 2017. She completely refused to see a marriage counselor with me or even read a marriage book with me. She cried. She promised to change. She didn't. She knows my views on sex but I can't make the empty threat of divorce since I'm not ready to follow through on it yet. There's nothing left to talk about because it's either already been said or can't be said yet. This reminds me of the old chestnut about the guy who told his wife "I love you" back in '03, and once was enough. I'm wondering if she thinks that everything is just peaches and cream, marriage-wise. I'm not saying that you need to become a Debbie Downer, but is your wife operating under a delusion of your making? |
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Post by h on Sept 22, 2023 12:08:32 GMT -5
I already had this talk with her in 2017. She completely refused to see a marriage counselor with me or even read a marriage book with me. She cried. She promised to change. She didn't. She knows my views on sex but I can't make the empty threat of divorce since I'm not ready to follow through on it yet. There's nothing left to talk about because it's either already been said or can't be said yet. This reminds me of the old chestnut about the guy who told his wife "I love you" back in '03, and once was enough. I'm wondering if she thinks that everything is just peaches and cream, marriage-wise. I'm not saying that you need to become a Debbie Downer, but is your wife operating under a delusion of your making? She doesn't know that I've looked into divorce so she doesn't know it's THAT bad. I can't tip my hand on that subject until I'm financially ready to follow through on it. I'm not going to make empty threats. She does know that our marriage is fundamentally different than it was before 2017. I don't think she can put her finger on it because everything else has gone on as normal but the feeling is "off" and even though she hasn't said anything openly about it, her behavior and tone in conversation is reflecting that difference. She has made comments in the past about my lack of interest in her and my lack of typical pursuit behavior. She misses feeling desired by me and I told her back then that I had felt that way for the entire marriage. She knows something is wrong with the way we interact but either can't say it out loud because she can't identify it, or is intentionally not saying anything to avoid rocking the boat because she already knows it's sitting low in the water. After the last two times she initiated and I couldn't perform, she has definitely acted differently towards me. I think she has the general feeling that things are extremely bad, but doesn't know specifically why. Sex is just not something she considers as a significant factor in the marriage so she will never be able to fathom the depth of my unhappiness with the situation. |
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m76
Full Member
Posts: 416
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Post by m76 on Sept 22, 2023 13:26:28 GMT -5
This reminds me of the old chestnut about the guy who told his wife "I love you" back in '03, and once was enough. I'm wondering if she thinks that everything is just peaches and cream, marriage-wise. I'm not saying that you need to become a Debbie Downer, but is your wife operating under a delusion of your making? She doesn't know that I've looked into divorce so she doesn't know it's THAT bad. I can't tip my hand on that subject until I'm financially ready to follow through on it. I'm not going to make empty threats. She does know that our marriage is fundamentally different than it was before 2017. I don't think she can put her finger on it because everything else has gone on as normal but the feeling is "off" and even though she hasn't said anything openly about it, her behavior and tone in conversation is reflecting that difference. She has made comments in the past about my lack of interest in her and my lack of typical pursuit behavior. She misses feeling desired by me and I told her back then that I had felt that way for the entire marriage. She knows something is wrong with the way we interact but either can't say it out loud because she can't identify it, or is intentionally not saying anything to avoid rocking the boat because she already knows it's sitting low in the water. After the last two times she initiated and I couldn't perform, she has definitely acted differently towards me. I think she has the general feeling that things are extremely bad, but doesn't know specifically why. Sex is just not something she considers as a significant factor in the marriage so she will never be able to fathom the depth of my unhappiness with the situation. I think you need to have the talk that I did. Not with any threats, just talk about how much you enjoyed sex with her and if she's interested maybe you'd be willing to get the little blue pill or some other aid if needed so you could both enjoy it again. |
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Post by h on Sept 22, 2023 22:04:54 GMT -5
She doesn't know that I've looked into divorce so she doesn't know it's THAT bad. I can't tip my hand on that subject until I'm financially ready to follow through on it. I'm not going to make empty threats. She does know that our marriage is fundamentally different than it was before 2017. I don't think she can put her finger on it because everything else has gone on as normal but the feeling is "off" and even though she hasn't said anything openly about it, her behavior and tone in conversation is reflecting that difference. She has made comments in the past about my lack of interest in her and my lack of typical pursuit behavior. She misses feeling desired by me and I told her back then that I had felt that way for the entire marriage. She knows something is wrong with the way we interact but either can't say it out loud because she can't identify it, or is intentionally not saying anything to avoid rocking the boat because she already knows it's sitting low in the water. After the last two times she initiated and I couldn't perform, she has definitely acted differently towards me. I think she has the general feeling that things are extremely bad, but doesn't know specifically why. Sex is just not something she considers as a significant factor in the marriage so she will never be able to fathom the depth of my unhappiness with the situation. I think you need to have the talk that I did. Not with any threats, just talk about how much you enjoyed sex with her and if she's interested maybe you'd be willing to get the little blue pill or some other aid if needed so you could both enjoy it again. I don't need a blue pill because my problem isn't physical. I am not attracted to her anymore. I'm past the point of no return. I don't want to try anymore. She had 15 years to try and never did. If she actually wanted me, she would have done SOMETHING in that time. |
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Post by toughtiger on Sept 23, 2023 14:54:40 GMT -5
"I don't need a blue pill because my problem isn't physical. I am not attracted to her anymore. I'm past the point of no return. I don't want to try anymore. She had 15 years to try and never did. If she actually wanted me, she would have done SOMETHING in that time." quote by h
I agree 100 percent at a point they had several opportunities or years to do SOMETHING... anything.
They chose not to....and that speaks loud and clear that we do not matter to them at all.
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Post by mirrororchid on Sept 29, 2023 4:54:23 GMT -5
My wife also enjoys doing things with me more than any of her friends. I think she believes that friendship and companionship are enough to qualify as a successful marriage. I have never outright rejected her attempts to spend time together, but I don't initiate anything like this. ... I'm not sure you've mentioned her expression of pleasure at your company. Given your frustration with her, that speaks very well of you. Perhaps you are a superior husband. Perhaps she knows that, but cannot change without a dire threat to the marriage or your "monogamy"/agamy. That could bode well for a split later, if it's necessary. Would you stay in an open marriage? Or do you want/need to be married to your lover? Your tone in subsequent posts strikes me as having grown more driven. Congratulations. Is there a timetable for those finances to be sufficient to have "The Talk"? It may make sense to have it as soon as possible. What if it actually did elicit change? You'd miss out on a few months of revival. (As dubious as the odds are.) " She has made comments in the past about my lack of interest in her and my lack of typical pursuit behavior. She misses feeling desired by me and I told her back then that I had felt that way for the entire marriage." That there is a quote to remember. It's not just rejection of desire that killed things. It was the failure to recognize the dysfunction when it is exclusively one-way pursuit. That may be lots to ask from a refuser, ("resposive desire" being an accomplishment for many) but still sucks big time. |
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Post by h on Oct 5, 2023 10:49:05 GMT -5
My wife also enjoys doing things with me more than any of her friends. I think she believes that friendship and companionship are enough to qualify as a successful marriage. I have never outright rejected her attempts to spend time together, but I don't initiate anything like this. ... I'm not sure you've mentioned her expression of pleasure at your company. Given your frustration with her, that speaks very well of you. Perhaps you are a superior husband. Perhaps she knows that, but cannot change without a dire threat to the marriage or your "monogamy"/agamy. That could bode well for a split later, if it's necessary. Would you stay in an open marriage? Or do you want/need to be married to your lover? Your tone in subsequent posts strikes me as having grown more driven. Congratulations. Is there a timetable for those finances to be sufficient to have "The Talk"? It may make sense to have it as soon as possible. What if it actually did elicit change? You'd miss out on a few months of revival. (As dubious as the odds are.) " She has made comments in the past about my lack of interest in her and my lack of typical pursuit behavior. She misses feeling desired by me and I told her back then that I had felt that way for the entire marriage." That there is a quote to remember. It's not just rejection of desire that killed things. It was the failure to recognize the dysfunction when it is exclusively one-way pursuit. That may be lots to ask from a refuser, ("resposive desire" being an accomplishment for many) but still sucks big time. I am working on paying down several debts. I am working on setting myself up with some side gig work for extra income. I need a more reliable car for some delivery jobs I have been looking into. I'm also making a budget and have an outline of all the expenses I will be cutting out to save money. I am prepared for a meager existence to get my future back on track. Unfortunately the numbers are still not palatable for now so no "Talk" will be happening yet. As for open marriage, I don't know if I could do it or not. I feel like I would get overwhelmingly emotionally attached to a new sex partner and it would totally ruin the marriage. Regardless, I don't think she would accept an open marriage. She has extremely strict views about monogamy and a family history full of infidelity. She has a triggered and very hostile view of anything non-monogamous. We actually encountered a non-monogamous family through a relative's friends at a party. A man in a committed relationship (although not a legal marriage due to it being illegal) with 3 women. He had kids with all of them and they all knew about each other and got along together at the party we were at. She was visibly disgusted by it and complained on the way home about how "wrong" it was. She was very irritated when I didn't share in her disgust. I flat out told her, I didn't care. If they were all honest with each other and ok with it, why was it any of our business? It works for them so who cares? That conversation told me she would never be ok with an open marriage. Even asking for that would lead to divorce. |
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 5, 2023 20:59:56 GMT -5
I am working on paying down several debts. I am working on setting myself up with some side gig work for extra income. I need a more reliable car for some delivery jobs I have been looking into. I'm also making a budget and have an outline of all the expenses I will be cutting out to save money. I am prepared for a meager existence to get my future back on track. Unfortunately the numbers are still not palatable for now so no "Talk" will be happening yet. As for open marriage, I don't know if I could do it or not. I feel like I would get overwhelmingly emotionally attached to a new sex partner and it would totally ruin the marriage.... That conversation told me she would never be ok with an open marriage. Even asking for that would lead to divorce. My worry is that any progress you make towards retiring debt might be met with an escalation of standard of living to take advantage of your improved credit rating. Some people look at credit teh same as cash. You might be on a hamster wheel if you don't have some method of making sure any new debt is strictly hers (not sure how you can do that without divorce.) Neglecting your wife is a risk. You'd need to take measures to love, honor, and cherish her in every way she preferred even as you might do the same for your lover. If she divorces you because you refuse her demand to be celibate like a child, I'm not sure that's the story she wants to tell herself or anyone who asks. She finds polyamory disgusting, but some ILIASM members find her neglect and indifference disgusting too. Non-consensual celibacy is weird, warped, abnormal, malicious, and arguably immoral. That's why so many refusers "keep up appearances". The truth is embarrassing for refusers. They hide their shame and are furious you refuse to help them keep their perverted secrets. NOTE: I exaggerate my epithets to counter the tiresome righteousness refused spouses get confronted with. Rufusers have a right to celibacy, just as the refused have a right to refuse it. Refusers wish to claim the mantle of monogamy, but it is the refused who are the ones who respect it. The refusers destroy it and twist it into the lonely charade of sexless marriage. No. They do not get to claim the respected, vaunted term, "monogamy". That isn't what they offer. If they did, the strife would not be nearly so keenly felt. |
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Post by h on Oct 6, 2023 13:10:36 GMT -5
I am working on paying down several debts. I am working on setting myself up with some side gig work for extra income. I need a more reliable car for some delivery jobs I have been looking into. I'm also making a budget and have an outline of all the expenses I will be cutting out to save money. I am prepared for a meager existence to get my future back on track. Unfortunately the numbers are still not palatable for now so no "Talk" will be happening yet. As for open marriage, I don't know if I could do it or not. I feel like I would get overwhelmingly emotionally attached to a new sex partner and it would totally ruin the marriage.... That conversation told me she would never be ok with an open marriage. Even asking for that would lead to divorce. My worry is that any progress you make towards retiring debt might be met with an escalation of standard of living to take advantage of your improved credit rating. Some people look at credit teh same as cash. You might be on a hamster wheel if you don't have some method of making sure any new debt is strictly hers (not sure how you can do that without divorce.) Neglecting your wife is a risk. You'd need to take measures to love, honor, and cherish her in every way she preferred even as you might do the same for your lover. If she divorces you because you refuse her demand to be celibate like a child, I'm not sure that's the story she wants to tell herself or anyone who asks. She finds polyamory disgusting, but some ILIASM members find her neglect and indifference disgusting too. Non-consensual celibacy is weird, warped, abnormal, malicious, and arguably immoral. That's why so many refusers "keep up appearances". The truth is embarrassing for refusers. They hide their shame and are furious you refuse to help them keep their perverted secrets. NOTE: I exaggerate my epithets to counter the tiresome righteousness refused spouses get confronted with. Rufusers have a right to celibacy, just as the refused have a right to refuse it. Refusers wish to claim the mantle of monogamy, but it is the refused who are the ones who respect it. The refusers destroy it and twist it into the lonely charade of sexless marriage. No. They do not get to claim the respected, vaunted term, "monogamy". That isn't what they offer. If they did, the strife would not be nearly so keenly felt. I am specifically focusing my efforts on paying down debts that she cannot add to down the road. A credit card that has only my name on it, student loans, paying extra on a car loan so it's paid off sooner, etc. Any credit card she has access to is either paid by her, or I pay just the minimum or maybe round up to an even amount. I am also putting a few extra dollars into a savings account that she doesn't have access to. She knows I have the account but doesn't know how much is in it. I understand that all assets and debts are shared, so I'm trying to stack up a cushion in my favor so I have somewhere to negotiate from. (Give her the upfront cash and take on more of the debt in exchange for lower alimony or waiving a claim on my retirement.) I'm thinking about the big picture. I'm going to run the numbers again next spring after taxes are filed to see how close I am on the alimony formula. As for her divorcing me, I don't see it happening unless I am openly hostile or confrontational about the sexlessness. If she files, the truth will come out which she won't want. In that event, I will have more support from my family than if I were to file. I would be ok with the outcome eventually. I think she's got reason to be nervous about divorce too. I'm her primary support for all emotional, medical, and financial issues. She's never lived on her own before going straight from her parents' house to an apartment with me. She trusts me more than her own mother on serious issues and I have always acted in her best interests. I think that would deter her from filing but if I'm wrong, so be it. As for love/honor, I don't think that's an issue. I do love her, albeit more like a relative than a spouse. I have honored her decision to remain mostly celibate and accepted her as she is. I won't be the one to go scorched earth in the event of a divorce and even though I know it's going to suck, I'm trying to maneuver it to minimize the pain for both of us. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 6, 2023 13:44:43 GMT -5
I recommend you speak to a lawyer about this financial strategy. Most jurisdictions I've seen require total disclosure and have means of assessing this, including tax records, attestations that your statements are truthful. The penalties of withholding may work against you. |
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Post by toughtiger on Oct 6, 2023 18:05:40 GMT -5
Quote from mirrorchild
"Non-consensual celibacy is weird, warped, abnormal, malicious, and arguably immoral. That's why so many refusers "keep up appearances". The truth is embarrassing for refusers. They hide their shame and are furious you refuse to help them keep their perverted secrets."
you are correct ....
i hate it when spouse tries to put arm around me or hold hands in the presence of others to hide his problem. i refuse ...pull away had a few look and i will tell him right out i am not playing his game... if he pushes this facade i will openly tell everyone in earshot about our dead bedroom.
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Post by h on Oct 6, 2023 18:08:19 GMT -5
I recommend you speak to a lawyer about this financial strategy. Most jurisdictions I've seen require total disclosure and have means of assessing this, including tax records, attestations that your statements are truthful. The penalties of withholding may work against you. I'm not withholding. She knows about all the accounts (which I already said in the previous post). I would freely offer up all my records to her lawyers if we go that route. I'm only keeping it away from her access so she doesn't spend it all on junk. I also have records of her financial irresponsibility if this gets nasty. It's not even a large portion of my income. The majority of it still goes to a joint account that I pay most of our bills from. |
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diode
Junior Member
Posts: 78 
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Post by diode on Oct 6, 2023 19:58:33 GMT -5
Quote from mirrorchild "Non-consensual celibacy is weird, warped, abnormal, malicious, and arguably immoral. That's why so many refusers "keep up appearances". The truth is embarrassing for refusers. They hide their shame and are furious you refuse to help them keep their perverted secrets." you are correct .... i hate it when spouse tries to put arm around me or hold hands in the presence of others to hide his problem. i refuse ...pull away had a few look and i will tell him right out i am not playing his game... if he pushes this facade i will openly tell everyone in earshot about our dead bedroom. You are both seriously correct!!!!!!! I've never done the public call-out part, but I sure have felt the shame part. I wish I'd read this pair of posts before tonight's discussion. |
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Post by aquacat on Oct 8, 2023 8:07:35 GMT -5
I’m finding myself now no longer being able to finish in the rare occasions we do have sex. She knows I’m not really into it and knows the same starfish position doesn’t do it for me. I end up faking it just to get it over with because I can’t concentrate enough to actually finish. She won’t try other positions and I don’t even broach oral anymore. I guess I’m so disappointed and finding myself no longer sexually attracted to her that my brain finally has had enough.
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 9, 2023 5:43:17 GMT -5
Quote from mirrorchild "Non-consensual celibacy is weird, warped, abnormal, malicious, and arguably immoral. That's why so many refusers "keep up appearances". The truth is embarrassing for refusers. They hide their shame and are furious you refuse to help them keep their perverted secrets." you are correct .... i hate it when spouse tries to put arm around me or hold hands in the presence of others to hide his problem. i refuse ...pull away had a few look and i will tell him right out i am not playing his game... if he pushes this façade i will openly tell everyone in earshot about our dead bedroom. Gotta wonder. Bickering spouses would pull away from gestures like that. A divorce happens, they'll assume it's because you're the refuser or he did some ordinary thing that made you less than amorous. What would happen if a refuser pulls a charade Public Display of Affection, and the refused raises the bet? He holds your hand, turn on him with wild eyes and soul kiss him right there. Later, goose him if he passes by. He wants to look like a healthy married couple? Fine, you can pretend too. You're going for that "newlywed" vibe. Why does the refuser get to pick which bullshit you convey? Not so easy for the counter-refusing ILIASM members who'd find this mischief repulsive, I suppose. |
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