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Post by theexplorer on Apr 5, 2022 17:12:58 GMT -5
Sorry guys!! I was NOT being very clear in the previous post!
OK, the three possible people:
1. Someone for emotional connection: This is the most challenging one for me figure out! I was thinking of possibly a lesbian friend, as Northstarmom suggested. Perhaps a family member would work. In theory, a guy friend would work. In practice, I doubt that would be comfortable for me! Not to mention that it is unlikely that many heterosexual man would be interested!!
I knew two guys that appeared to have an emotional connection. One of the guys was a heterosexual. The other guy was a gay man. They lived together for years. The gay guy had a gay partner. (The partner lived in a different city.) The heterosexual guy had some casual girlfriends occasionally. Those two guys had an unusual friendship for sure. Someone suggested that I may be able to form a close emotional friendship with a gay man. I have not been around very many gay men, so I have no idea if that is even a likely possibility. The person who suggested this option pointed out that if I were to do this, people would assume I'm gay. Growing up in a homophobic environment, I question if this would ever be comfortable for me.
Back when I was a young man, I had a reasonably close friendship with a girl. We never were sexually intimate. I suspect that she was an asexual. At the time, I did not know that some people are actually asexual. I have no idea how my wife would feel about a close asexual female friend.
Another option that crossed my mind was looking for such a friendship with a woman who is in prison. (Serving a life sentence perhaps?) A deal like this would eliminate some issues. On the other hand, I'm not sure prison is a good place to look for a close friend!! People there are not known for being of the best character!
2. A friend for socializing: I'm definitely thinking of a guy for this! Back when I was a teenager, I had a great friend. He lived near my home. We often went to parties and social events together. He was a very outgoing guy. I am an introvert. During most of that time, neither of us had a regular girlfriend. We did a LOT of stuff together! I was always more comfortable going to places or events with him than going alone. That guy had some exceptional social skills and a great personality!
My wife has lost interest in social events. She wants to stay home. Frequently, she is in to much pain or is to tired to leave her favorite chair. Often on week-ends, I go out and do things alone. That starts to suck after a while! I would like to have a guy like my teenage friend, today.
My wife would not want me to have such a friendship. The more I've thought about this matter, the more I'm thinking that she misses going places with me. That may be why she has been giving me grief about male friends. Perhaps telling her less might be best for everyone.
3. The third person I had in mind is my current wife: I am NOT considering any other sexual partners!! My wife and I have been having semi-regular sex for months. Sometimes she is in to much pain, or is to tired to have sex. Those issues seem to be part of one's sex life in the second half of life! Overall, She has been making an effort to meet my sexual needs. I like living with her. She is a very likeable woman.
To Mirrororchid's questions, The article I previously mentioned had little to say about the husband. I don't recall any mention of how emotionally close he was to his wife. It was presented as a case, so familiar to those of us on this web board, that he was primarily a refuser.
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Post by baza on Apr 5, 2022 22:37:03 GMT -5
If I've read this right Brother theexplorer , it comes across as you - potentially - trying to build some sort of a support system which can hopefully help you through your processes in resolving your ILIASM deal. That is a really good idea (having a support group that you can draw on and contribute to) irrespective of your marital situation. How you might consolidate your existing social circle, or source new people into your social circle is key. You've got to get out there and engage. You never know where a supportive person might be. There's an old saying - "if you want a friend then be a friend". |
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Post by theexplorer on Apr 12, 2022 16:21:17 GMT -5
Yes Baza, you summed it up well. I need a better support system! Most of the folks in my life currently are over 70 years of age. Several of them are in poor health.
I've thought about what you posted on the previous page over the last few days. You mentioned something to the effect that one's spouse isn't likely to appreciate a friendship with an emotional connection. That is exactly what I was contemplating in first category of the previous post. Yes, my wife would have a problem with that idea! If I do that, it will have to be kept on the down low.
Back when I was a young guy I knew an old farmer. The guy deeply appreciated me. (My creativity saved his crop one year!) The old guy also loved to tease me. One of his sayings was that I "could not see the forest for the trees." In other words, I tend to get so absorbed in the details that I miss the big picture. The old guy's analysis of me is correct all to often!!
Basically, what I was considering in the first category of the previous post is to have an emotional affair. I did not realize that when writing it. I did not see the forest for the trees!! Yea, that idea would lead to being "busted" by the wife sooner or later!
I need to get out and socialize. You are correct on that. Less thinking and planning combined with more socializing is probably a better strategy!!
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 12, 2022 16:27:48 GMT -5
theexplorer: "Basically, what I was considering in the first category of the previous post is to have an emotional affair. I did not realize that when writing it. I did not see the forest for the trees!! Yea, that idea would lead to being "busted" by the wife sooner or later!"
Or it could lead to your dumping your wife because you would deeply understand how empty your marriage is.
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Post by theexplorer on May 3, 2022 12:04:57 GMT -5
Just a brief update:
I've made efforts to socialize more and have been really enjoying it.
On the issue of finding someone I could love and be emotionally close to, I've had a bit of a revelation. I think my drive in that direction has been due to my lack of love for myself. Being in a sexless marriage for so many years, led me to feel down deep inside that I am NOT a lovable man. Before I look for someone else to love me, I need to re-learn to love myself. If anyone has some suggestions on this matter, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
In regard to Northstarmom's comment, You may very well be proven correct! There have been several times it has taken me MONTHS to realize accuracy of your wise words! |
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Post by northstarmom on May 4, 2022 1:52:32 GMT -5
theexplorer: I found this meditation very helpful because most of us were not taught that we were worthy of our own love. Try saying it silently to yourself. If you have problems doing it to yourself, view giving it to yourself when you were a baby. In the full meditation, you start by saying the words to yourself then you say them to a loved one, then to a person whom you feel neutral about, then to a person whom you find difficult, then to every living being. However, one of my meditation teachers said that people in the west have such difficulty loving themselves that they should do the meditation only to themselves for at least a year. That's what I did, and it made a big difference in how I treated and regarded myself. Eventually, I was able to let go of my marriage in a way without angst. But that wasn't why I started doing this meditation. I did it because it made me feel loved and nurtured.
May I be happy, peaceful, and well.
May no harm come to me.
May I have the patience to face life's inevitable difficulties.
May I be happy, peaceful, and well. May I love myself just as I am. May I live with ease.
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Post by lessingham on Nov 8, 2022 5:17:20 GMT -5
Read recently, " happy wife,happy life", is the most devastating advice ever offered. Men run themselves ragged trying to make her happy and avoiding at all costs any scintilla of conflict. I am guilty of this. Mature relationships are when equals pushes back, when conflict is not avoided and issues are solved or can go hang.
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Post by petrushka on Nov 9, 2022 9:42:20 GMT -5
Read recently, " happy wife,happy life", is the most devastating advice ever offered. Men run themselves ragged trying to make her happy and avoiding at all costs any scintilla of conflict. I am guilty of this. Mature relationships are when equals pushes back, when conflict is not avoided and issues are solved or can go hang. For the first 9 years of my marriage I tried to make my wife happy. Nothing was ever right. There was always a reason for her to get angry, withdraw, whatever. Once I got involved in the iliasm group on EP I began to realize that there is a pervasive pattern that a lot of people in sexless/intimacy-less relationships experience. I was running, running, running on a hamsterwheel. None of my efforts were appreciated, on the contrary. Inwardly, she raged.
At the same time it began to come clear to me that not only extremely controlling psychopaths get into gaslighting.
Theexplorer's wife is clearly trying to isolate him, all the better to control him, his behaviour as she wants it.
Now here's the funny bit. The moment I decided to drop it (i.e. trying to make my wife happy, to please her, to be more attractive to her), the shit in the relationship settled right down! I decided to just look after my OWN happiness. To leave her alone. Not only did that make her a happier person, she's thawed to the point where you would not recognize her as the person she used to be.
That's not a universal truth. I tried to give my first wife as much freedom to do what she wanted, to make her own friends and express herself, while encouraging and supporting her all the way,
but she thought I was neglecting her. Heh. What didn't work for one, works perfectly for the other.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Nov 9, 2022 11:29:39 GMT -5
It is terrible advice. I think with a slight modification it takes on a whole new meaning. Try this on for size: Happy life. Happy wife. Read recently, " happy wife,happy life", is the most devastating advice ever offered. Men run themselves ragged trying to make her happy and avoiding at all costs any scintilla of conflict. I am guilty of this. Mature relationships are when equals pushes back, when conflict is not avoided and issues are solved or can go hang. |
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 13, 2022 11:25:30 GMT -5
Sometimes it's happpy life, no wife.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Nov 13, 2022 13:00:22 GMT -5
Correct. And this was me in my bachelor days with no plans on getting married. Oh the irony! Sometimes it's happpy life, no wife. |
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Post by mirrororchid on Nov 14, 2022 5:26:10 GMT -5
... I think with a slight modification it takes on a whole new meaning.... Happy life. Happy wife. Very nice. The advice on Dads Starting Over and here on ILIASM overlaps and invokes this advice, though not so pithily. Steps ILIASM members have suggested for folks with neglectful spouses have included:
Building a social circle that doesn't include your refuser. Contemplating an exit if you cannot reverse course. Cultivating hobbies. Seeing old friends, making new ones. Getting a new project at work. Getting in better shape. Joining clubs/meetups. Building a life you enjoy takes your focus away from attempting to make your spouse happy. Responses may vary based on personality types:
-Concern your focus is diminishing and some effort at reciprocation to bring your devotion back. (reset sex may occur here, watch yourself.) -Recognition that she's unhappy too and takes similar steps to improve their own mood which helps the environment between you. -Introduction of "breathing room" if you were trying too hard and gives them the opportunity to be devoted to you, discovering their giving, provider side where you had been dominating the "caring spouse" role. -Curiosity about the new activities and goals you're engaged in. -Initiation of separation (because thankless servitude and reception of endless complaining is all they ever wanted from marriage and you eff'd it up) -Getting a prescription they badly need so they can be as happy as you are. <crossing fingers> All of this transformation must be in pursuit of the "happy life" part with no intention of pleasing the spouse. Having that motive can boomerang you back to the dichotomic giving/provider role of the thankless co-dependency neither of you enjoyed. |
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Post by theexplorer on Nov 28, 2022 19:37:42 GMT -5
Wow!!! I had not checked in here for a while. Did not realize that folks were still commenting on this discussion.
OK an update:
Well, first off, lets talk a bit about my relationship history.
For many years my wife was involved in gas lighting me. At times she attempted to convince me that her lies were true. Sometimes, she would totally confuse and befuddle me. I did NOT understand why she did this, and had no idea what was behind her behavior.
About 2 1/2 years ago, I began called her out on the gaslighting. (It was shortly before we began having sex again.) I told her to stop the gaslighting because it is a form of emotional abuse. My words seemed to hit her quite forcefully. At that point in time, I didn't understand her behavior, but had learned enough to recognize it. Since that time, her gaslighting has been much less frequent.
I recently picked up a library book call, "Gaslighting" by Stephanie Moulton Sarkis, PhD. This book has clearly explained her behavior. It has been a real eye opener!! This author recommends leaving a gaslighter. The first time I read the chapter on gaslighting in intimate relationship I literally got physically sick!! (I missed work the next day!!) This author so accurately described my wife's behavior during the 10+ sexless years of my marriage.
Next, I picked up another book called "State of Affairs" by Ester Perel. That book has also been excellent. The chapter on Sexless marriages really hit home with me.
Bottom line: After reading these books, I finally gave myself "permission" to leave my marriage. Now in practical terms, that will not be taking place anytime soon. The huge surprise is that once I decided that I could leave, I felt FANTASTIC!!! Yup, FANTASTIC!!! As in, I haven't felt this great in over 15 years FANTASTIC!! My energy level is far higher. Sometimes I just start singing for no reason! It is great!! A couple of people who know me have commented that I appear to be so much happier! The transformation has been amazing!!
Honestly, I have only started working on an exit plan. It will be a long, complicated procedure. In fact, I may decide to stay and outsource instead of leaving. Of course, before outsourcing, I will be in a position to leave. If the wife discovers she has competition that would hurt her ego. She gets stupendously vindictive when her ego is threatened! I don't have the future mapped out yet, but it appears bright!
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Post by mirrororchid on Nov 29, 2022 5:37:02 GMT -5
Congratulations, brother Explorer.
That elation is what I got from just the decision to date. When you take action, the victim condition no longer applies, thus the instantaneous mood improvement.
When we just wait, wait, wait for our refuser to change, it is a helpless miserable condition. Attempts to push things forward add frustration to the misery.
If you decide to stay and outsource, your lifted mood will be attractive to prospective partners picking up your refuser's abundant slack in the "have and hold" department.
So great to see your optimism. Do update us again soon.
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