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Post by lwoetin on Jun 6, 2016 0:20:43 GMT -5
Thank you for your thoughts, humor and kind ear. Sex is not an activity she wants to engage in, often. I have to force the issue. A headache, lack of sleep the night before, a sick child, a sick pet, work, poison ivy, pre-menopause....a hundred more reasons not to have sex. The rejection hurts if I need to have sex. I guess I don't need it often after all, perhaps I just want it more often. I just break down once in a while and she picks me back up. She is a minimalist sexually and will do just enough to get by when she sees I am reaching my limit. Sex in later 40s is a source of shame and ridicule among her friends, perhaps a cultural thing (Japanese). I don't think I am too crazy to submit to the rejection. I think mutual love, kids, religion, joyful sex (when it happens), no divorce in immediate family members marriages (4 other siblings married), guilt, inertia, starting over...just so many layers to overcome to actually leave, nor do I want to. She really has to offer less than 100% effort to upset the status.  .......Of course, a couple of years from now, things can go really bad and all such layers mean squat. She still insist she was kidding about taking a chance marrying me, but when I pressed her on it, she says all marriage is that way. I think she brought up underlying feelings as a warning for me to be nice, or else.... |
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Post by DryCreek on Jun 6, 2016 1:15:56 GMT -5
Sex after 40s is a source of shame culturally(?)... but divorce isn't? And you should tread gingerly with her, not vice versa? Or what? She'll divorce you?
Dipping into the cultural dynamic, it's not shameful to the wife if her husband must go to another woman? Or if it becomes known that she's not being a good wife?
It sounds to me that she is picking and choosing points of honor and shame that are convenient to her.
Coming from a Western cultural perspective, this dynamic between you two is odd...
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Post by baza on Jun 6, 2016 1:47:33 GMT -5
@iwoetin
A couple of things come across here.
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#1 - is that you have made todays choice - to stay. That's good. Much better than being "the victim of circumstances".
#2 - is that you seem well aware of what you are prepared to do, and what you are not prepared to do. That's good too.
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Interesting that you missus finds it necessary to make these "or else" statements.
They seem indicative of someone who is NOT aware of what they are prepared to do, and what they are not prepared to do.
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I reckon you are holding a far better hand in this game than you think.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 6, 2016 7:10:11 GMT -5
Sex after 40s is a source of shame culturally(?)... but divorce isn't? And you should tread gingerly with her, not vice versa? Or what? She'll divorce you? Dipping into the cultural dynamic, it's not shameful to the wife if her husband must go to another woman? Or if it becomes known that she's not being a good wife? It sounds to me that she is picking and choosing points of honor and shame that are convenient to her. Coming from a Western cultural perspective, this dynamic between you two is odd... Just to add onto that some. Culture has to be left behind. You don't move into, live, in another society and expect them to conform to you. Another case of " manipulative control" your thoughts, experience, knowledge, needs, feelings, be damned! two of my four boys were adopted from China and brought to America at ages 10 and 14. One had to be told, often, " we don't do things that way here" especially his disrespect for girls and his sister. |
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Post by thefullmoon on Jun 6, 2016 7:35:40 GMT -5
Thank you for your thoughts, humor and kind ear. Sex is not an activity she wants to engage in, often. I have to force the issue. A headache, lack of sleep the night before, a sick child, a sick pet, work, poison ivy, pre-menopause....a hundred more reasons not to have sex. The rejection hurts if I need to have sex. I guess I don't need it often after all, perhaps I just want it more often. I just break down once in a while and she picks me back up. She is a minimalist sexually and will do just enough to get by when she sees I am reaching my limit. Sex in later 40s is a source of shame and ridicule among her friends, perhaps a cultural thing (Japanese). I don't think I am too crazy to submit to the rejection. I think mutual love, kids, religion, joyful sex (when it happens), no divorce in immediate family members marriages (4 other siblings married), guilt, inertia, starting over...just so many layers to overcome to actually leave, nor do I want to. She really has to offer less than 100% effort to upset the status. .......Of course, a couple of years from now, things can go really bad and all such layers mean squat. She still insist she was kidding about taking a chance marrying me, but when I pressed her on it, she says all marriage is that way. I think she brought up underlying feelings as a warning for me to be nice, or else.... Did you actually research about Japanese sexual traditions? Women commonly accepted husbands extramarital activities... or does your wife pick only those parts she likes? |
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Post by DryCreek on Jun 6, 2016 9:50:07 GMT -5
Did you actually research about Japanese sexual traditions? Women commonly accepted husbands extramarital activities... or does your wife pick only those parts she likes? Pretty much exactly my line of thinking. If she's going to stick with traditional thinking, she better be prepared to accept traditional consequences. I don't recall where lwoetin lives, so not sure if she's being selective about her cultural influences, or if it's the world she's immersed in daily. |
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Post by angryspartan on Jun 6, 2016 9:56:11 GMT -5
If she really has it and is suffering from the symptoms, I could see why she may not want to.
That being said, after all the refusals due to headaches, feeling ill, early/extended periods, upset moods, being too stressed, too tired, etc. we become numb to the one's that are legit. And of course, we are the monsters for not showing any empathy towards their plight. They don't realize they've broken our trust and it keeps us from caring for them when they really are not doing too well.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 6, 2016 11:25:32 GMT -5
If she really has it and is suffering from the symptoms, I could see why she may not want too. That being said, after all the refusals due to headaches, feeling ill, early/extended periods, upset moods, being too stressed, too tired, etc. we become numb to the one's that are legit. And of course, we are the monsters for not showing any empathy towards their plight. They don't realize they've broken our trust and it keeps us from caring for them when they really are not doing too well. Just to add onto that. How do you " trust" someone who can't have a relaxing experience with you, receiving much pleasurable stimulation,and admiration by simply showing a little bit of desire? Yet they are out pulling weeds, digging up soil and spreading pine needles outdoors, while they are too stressed, too tired, too upset, exhausted, and have strong headaches! i'd be interested in buying some of that beach property she has for sale in Oklahoma! |
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Post by wewbwb on Jun 6, 2016 14:08:04 GMT -5
Actually - if a woman has a rash- valid excuse.
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Post by lwoetin on Jun 7, 2016 3:15:13 GMT -5
Actually - if a woman has a rash- valid excuse. So it shall be written so it shall be done. |
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Post by lwoetin on Jun 7, 2016 4:18:44 GMT -5
thefullmoon, she tells me of incidences of japanese husbands having extramarital affairs. She just wants me to be like the ones that doesn't. We've been living together in southeast and mid-atlantic for 22yrs. She's still a citizen of japan and holds that most couples our age don't have sex there. Which means little to me. I just tell her we'll keep it a secret and won't tell anyone what we do in the bedroom. Her best friend in seattle does not do it but gives a handjob on one hand while using a phone on the other, supposedly. Her best friend's marriage is heading towards divorce. Several other friends of hers are already divorced. Her world where she get what she wants can't hold up. baza, I do have a far better hand but.... And seriously, sex is only fun if she wants it so trying to use my perceived advantage to create opportunities for sexual activity might make her more turned off to sex. The only solution I see is for her to have sex lovingly. I am really just confused what is the big deal with opening her legs and making love. Any refusers out there to shed light on this?
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Post by baza on Jun 7, 2016 6:57:54 GMT -5
There is another solution.
But it's the hardest of the lot to get your head around, and extraordinarily difficult to do.
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It is to accept your missus "as is" and without resentment.
Without resentment being key.
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You, are NOT going to change your missus, her behaviours, her attitudes, her view of the world, her view on marriage.
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Given that leaving is not on your agenda, then staying IS your agenda.
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You seem to be close to being able to "accept" your missus 'as is', so maybe there is the answer.
If you can genuinely accept her "as is" that would be a step forward.
Then would come the BIG step, the step that the vast majority of us can not take.
To "accept without resentment".
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A lot of people can 'sort of' accept their spouse and their behaviours.
Some people can move on from there to genuinely accept their spouse and their behaviours.
And some, not very many, can accept their spouse and their behaviours without resentment and achieve a state of serenity.
I'd suggest that of the (few) options, this one of accepting without resentment is by far the most difficult and challenging.
But any one can take a shot at it.
In this regard, the writings of Brother Petruschka might be a useful reference.
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Post by worksforme2 on Jun 7, 2016 7:38:34 GMT -5
And seriously, sex is only fun if she wants it so trying to use my perceived advantage to create opportunities for sexual activity might make her more turned off to sex. The only solution I see is for her to have sex lovingly. I am really just confused what is the big deal with opening her legs and making love. Any refusers out there to shed light on this? I don't have the exact same set of circumstances but perhaps they are close enough to be relevant. My stbx was in a sorority that had roughly 16 members, down to about 10 now. At the time, 6 were married and 2 had live in boyfriends. The rest were divorced or had never been married. They often talked among themselves about their sex lives. Most of them didn't have one. Only 1 of the single women ever dated that I recall. One married couple was sexless due to ED issues(prostate surgery). One cohabitating couple was basically sexless because of alcohol. One cohabitating couple the woman was a mostly refuser like my stbx. 2 married couples were active because the H's ruled with a pretty firm hand. 2 married couples I have no idea about frequency but expect they were active. My stbx would often use her sorority sisters as a cheering group saying such a small # of them were sexually active(one I know of and more perhaps not willingly) and the others not at all in supporting her desire to stop having to "perform her wifely duties". A year or so back I saw an Ophra Winfree show with 4 celebrity wives who were bragging about controlling their husbands using sex and cutting them off when exerting their power in the marriage. The almost entirely female audience cheered enthusiastically. A week or so ago someone here posted a story from England with the W announcing she no longer desired sex so she gave her H a pass for a FWB. Her fellow panelists were supportive although fairly clueless. One panelist who took the same approach was somewhat chagrinned when her H took her up on it. The mostly female audience clapped their support for her sexless approach to her marriage. And several here have pointed out that a high percentage of married men in Japan pursue sex outside their marriages. I know it's only a couple examples, but I think perhaps it's enough to draw a conclusion that a married woman who no longer desires sex will find a lot of support and encouragement from her sisters out there. If it's a cultural thing then it is apparently world wide. |
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 7, 2016 8:45:08 GMT -5
There is another solution. But it's the hardest of the lot to get your head around, and extraordinarily difficult to do. - It is to accept your missus "as is" and without resentment. Without resentment being key. - You, are NOT going to change your missus, her behaviors, her attitudes, her view of the world, her view on marriage. - Given that leaving is not on your agenda, then staying IS your agenda. Poison Ivy causes a rash and is verifiable and I would say IS a legitimate excuse for both of you. I'd be grateful mine took initiative to work in the yard.
What is amazing are the excuses she uses- they are identical worldwide though using her culture is a new one for me. A geriatrics doctor once noted when asked what age his patients stop thinking about those "things", he replied "when they die." You see - you are normal.
Whatever the excuse, they somehow do not understand the life they extract from us and the lifestyle they are missing as a result. The refused do have so much to offer and we want to; but there reaches a point of "what's the point and our selfless attitudes do wane".
My wife used the extended period again last month. I asked her after she noticed I was being distant with her- "how would I know the difference between a legitimate excuse and a story? I have no way of verifying and your default answer is "no"? She said nothing and apologized. When she said she could not help it, I said there are other ways to have sex besides PIV which she replied, "Yea that's fun for you". And I replied "so what, am I not worth it?" Still nothing though unless I initiate and the ratio of yeses to attempts are still way too low - hence why I am again typing this morning.
Because the other excuses are ALL the same from your wife born opposite the world from my own refuser, you have to act or you be here 10 years from now with the exact same sadness.
REFUSERS ONLY UNDERSTAND ACTION, IF YOU TAKE NONE, NOTHING WILL CHANGE
TAKE ACTION - Begin moving from your bedroom and bathroom belongings to another end of the house. Take charge in this way but do not let on that you are upset, just resolved to your circumstance and taking it like a man. When she asks what you are doing, remain calm and steadfast but clear and UNEMOTIONAL. Practice what you will say so it comes off smoothly and shows you are taking full charge of you now and displays confidence. Something like "I love you very much BUT "I have a very normal, regular appetite and to be next to you in bed and sharing intimate space is like staring at a buffet that I am not worthy to enjoy. Although I am otherwise a strong man, this lack of flirting, romance and affection is a torture I can no longer bear. It will be a big help if I am not so close". "Every rejection is like getting hit by a car, even if slow moving, quite painful". END. Be short and succinct and keep moving.
NO LONG CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THIS SUBJECT ANYMORE. Refusers use long conversations as a tool to control and self-justify with words. We keep giving them the permission to reject us, so they do. She may cry, she may not know what to do as she will be shocked. She may start telling you all the things you are to blame you why she is never in the mood (all BS that needs to be ignored as it is NOT true). She may get mad - let her - then ask her, "would you choose to be in a room every day where you were slapped almost every time you walked in?" Where instead of the buffet, you are offered only scraps to "enjoy?" To go where the one you love, evades you by always finding something to do to avoid being alone?" To be told you are not valuable by the one to whom you are committed if not devoted? "How would that make you feel?" Then keep moving.
This will be a start, though a Band-Aid for you getting breath back into your lungs. She must come to understand the pain caused. If she takes no action to change, you need to resolve that you will in fact begin to learn to enjoy life without a full time partner. Start with planning an activity you have put off due to being married. She is invited but it's alright if she does not. If she goes, book separate rooms - just to send the message. You have to force her to initiate and learn to get more into it. THIS IS A TIME WHERE MONEY CANNOT BE THE THING THAT KEEPS YOU FROM MOVING FORWARD - DON'T LET IT BE THE TRAP THAT HOLDS YOU IN PLACE UNTIL YOU HAVE STARVED NEARLY TO DEATH.
And back to what Baza said, resolve to be pleasant and non-resentful (HARD TO DO I KNOW) but you have to do things for yourself to feel alive again. As the matter gets discussed, stay calm and remind her it is her choice - when a spouse removes sex from the relationship, she also removes the romance and a connectedness reserved for marriage - so being comfortable room-mates is the only alternative. Let her know in your culture, divorce is not an option but self preservation is a noble endeavor. TAKE ACTION and see what happens. Your suffering cannot get worse. My bet though is, she is a smart person and understands the consequences of you being too independent and will initiate sex. Then you can lead into expectations. You can be clear without being vulgar so she sees that you respect her.
I finally did this, had sex Thursday and again Saturday morning I made a move at 5:05 and she obliged, not a flinch of rejection.
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Post by DryCreek on Jun 7, 2016 9:09:12 GMT -5
And seriously, sex is only fun if she wants it so trying to use my perceived advantage to create opportunities for sexual activity might make her more turned off to sex. The only solution I see is for her to have sex lovingly. I am really just confused what is the big deal with opening her legs and making love. Any refusers out there to shed light on this? I know it's only a couple examples, but I think perhaps it's enough to draw a conclusion that a married woman who no longer desires sex will find a lot of support and encouragement from her sisters out there. If it's a cultural thing then it is apparently world wide. Regardless of one's stance, I think it's possible to find a supportive audience to reinforce your views. Perhaps good friends who support you blindly, perhaps a group you find that supports your views. Our group here is no exception. This whole issue is a problem at a society level. There's a pervasive attitude that one's commitments must only be fulfilled when it's convenient, and everybody deserves a 'pass' on the consequences. There is a lack of social stigma from acting dishonorably, so there's little deterrent to being selfish. |
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.......Of course, a couple of years from now, things can go really bad and all such layers mean squat. 
