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Post by Dan on Jun 1, 2016 12:33:56 GMT -5
Conversations with my wife continue. I'm not pulling punches like I used to. She says "I don't know how to be intimate with you because you are so mad at me (about sex)." Yes, there was a time I was mad at her -- venting at her for my extreme sexual frustration. But my reply this time was "I'm not mad at you now; it's much worse. Now I pretty much don't care."
I basically said: "I can't trust you. You've shown me over our almost 28 years that you are not really that interested in working on a sexual and intimate side of our marriage. So if you "turn it on now", how can I tell the difference between "this is honestly you, wanting an intimate life" or just you trying to protect your lifestyle by keeping me around? Said another way, I don't trust ME either: I can't trust MY ability to discern if you are being SELFISH or LOVING. That is a bad state to be in: when your husband can't tell the difference."
I have a hard time thinking of the "time I'd like to go back to" in our marriage (as far as an extended period of intimate connection). I told her that; she just gets sad.
I'm telling her the situation (for our marriage) is dire, and I don't see a way to fix it. She then proceeds to tell me how I "never listened to her" when she told me all the reasons (over the past 25 years) why she was too beaten down by life to have a normal healthy sex life with me; that I have been too needy; that I always make it "all about me". That really, really stings: I've tried so hard to listen and connect and be there for her and meet her more than half way. I admit, she has tried somewhat to meet my needs too. Some periods had more trying than others; none achieved a sustained success.
Anyway, I swear the next morning she turns around in a mini-reset: is trying to be affectionate with me. Her hugs/touch are nice (I like to be touched), but it makes me sad at the same time.
"Reset affection" aside: I can tell that I'm not ready to leave anyways, because in these past three days there were plenty of times I could have added "so... let's start planning the separation now, because that's what I want." But I didn't. We still do have very nice family time, and I do like that. I've accommodated low- or no marital sex this long, I can make it a bit longer.
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Post by angryspartan on Jun 1, 2016 12:57:02 GMT -5
It's on her to regain your trust. I believe in most of the cases here, a genuine apology, followed up with consistent sex would bring an untrusting partner back. But as long as she doesn't take ownership of the situation, and places the majority of the blame back on you, there will be no resolution.
You probably have done most of what you could, don't let her historical revision make you second guess yourself.
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Post by bballgirl on Jun 1, 2016 13:15:54 GMT -5
The opposite of LOVE is INDIFFERENCE.
If you were mad then there are still feelings there.
It's when you don't care anymore that things get dangerous.
When I had the last TALK with my husband he automatically went to blame mode. However all of the points he made showed why we were not compatible.
I stayed calm and pointed that out to him.
I accepted his blame.
For example: He told me when I sent him a sexually suggestive text that was a turn off. It put too much pressure on him. (Total bullshit)
So my response was: that shows that we are not compatible. I want a man that likes getting playful texts like that and it turns him on. We are not compatible.
Everyone's timetable is different. Use this time productively to prepare yourself and your family for whichever direction your marriage goes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 13:35:33 GMT -5
Oh Dan my heart is breaking for you, but I think bballgirl said it best, "the opposite of love is indifference." Then she explained how accepting that, and NOT internalizing misplaced "blame" helped her move forward. Or, as I say to folks, "it works, until it doesn't, and only YOU know when you've crossed that threshold." In the meantime, lean on us, my friend. {{{{ Dan}}}} |
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Post by Chatter Fox on Jun 1, 2016 13:40:21 GMT -5
*sigh* ...I'm totally in the same state of mind. The whole trust thing hits home so hard for me. Everything you are going through and describing to me hits home so freaking hard. I wish I had something more useful to share but I suppose my sympathy is all I can offer. Hang in there.
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Post by LITW on Jun 1, 2016 13:41:10 GMT -5
I feel for you Bro. That is my story too. This especially resonated:
So if you "turn it on now", how can I tell the difference between "this is honestly you, wanting an intimate life" or just you trying to protect your lifestyle by keeping me around?
Knowing this makes me very sad as well. There was a time when I started to get hopeful whenever my wife wanted to get affectionate (which is and was very rarely), but my hopes were always dashed when I realized that her interest dried up seemingly as fast as it appeared and we were back to being housemates. I don't get hopeful anymore, I just try to enjoy the affection when it comes and try to be in the moment--while knowing it is just for the moment and won't be around the next time I need it. It seems that keeping me around is a priority for her, but meeting my needs is not a priority.
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Post by angryspartan on Jun 1, 2016 13:56:31 GMT -5
The opposite of LOVE is INDIFFERENCE. If you were mad then there are still feelings there. It's when you don't care anymore that things get dangerous. When I had the last TALK with my husband he automatically went to blame mode. However all of the points he made showed why we were not compatible. I stayed calm and pointed that out to him. I accepted his blame. For example: He told me when I sent him a sexually suggestive text that was a turn off. It put too much pressure on him. (Total bullshit) So my response was: that shows that we are not compatible. I want a man that likes getting playful texts like that and it turns him on. We are not compatible. Everyone's timetable is different. Use this time productively to prepare yourself and your family for whichever direction your marriage goes. I think you found the one man on earth who actually did read Playboy for the articles. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jun 1, 2016 14:07:08 GMT -5
The opposite of LOVE is INDIFFERENCE. If you were mad then there are still feelings there. It's when you don't care anymore that things get dangerous. When I had the last TALK with my husband he automatically went to blame mode. However all of the points he made showed why we were not compatible. I stayed calm and pointed that out to him. I accepted his blame. For example: He told me when I sent him a sexually suggestive text that was a turn off. It put too much pressure on him. (Total bullshit) So my response was: that shows that we are not compatible. I want a man that likes getting playful texts like that and it turns him on. We are not compatible. Everyone's timetable is different. Use this time productively to prepare yourself and your family for whichever direction your marriage goes. I think you found the one man on earth who actually did read Playboy for the articles. Probably! unfortunately the only magazine he bought was Beckett back in the day so he could see the value of his previous baseball cards. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 1, 2016 14:11:13 GMT -5
Dan you threw me a curve at the end. You may indeed have a nice family time, but there is zero time spent as a couple that interacts with a family. You could still have better family time and live in separate households, and a strong possibility that the two of you would be better parents separate.
Tell us if you think you and your wife are being great role models as a married couple? Are your children going to model themselves after the both of you?
I am not a fan of detachment. In your case it could show you that she can function quiet well without you . And you without her. That is the stage I am at. The kids see it and know it.. It is not healthy for them.
We can all make it " a bit longer" it's time to think about Dan. Can Dan take two more years? Dan will be what age in two more years? Could, should Dan take 25 more years of this?
Marriage is a give and take. Is it time to start taking?
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Post by DryCreek on Jun 1, 2016 14:13:49 GMT -5
Dan, does your wife even have it in her to be sexually intimate? Are you trying to teach a fish to walk? You mention not having an intimate time you'd like to go back to, and that really makes me wonder. If it's just not in her nature, she may adapt to salvage her marriage, but if it isn't genuine it won't be sustainable. worksforme2 had a story along this line, where she was only able to keep up the façade for a few months. I'm all for giving enough time to see if things can improve; however, I have a nasty track record of staying in bad situations (jobs) for too long - I'm not a good judge of when enough is enough. The dilemma I see with that waiting period is, do you a) put it in neutral and see where she goes with it, or b) try to drive change during that time. The problem with A is that she will lack feedback and may come to believe that the storm has passed or that whatever small change she's making has fixed the situation; in contrast, with B you are driving a change in behavior, but unable to gauge whether the change has been internalized. Perhaps the balance is something like teaching her to ride a bike? You can't just put her on and give her a push, and you have to let go at some point for her to demonstrate her ability and gain her own confidence. But first, she must want to learn to ride. And then, for fun or just out of necessity? I'm not sure you can teach someone to like something. E.g., I hate roller coasters; I could be conditioned to tolerate them, but I really doubt any motivation could make me enjoy them. I kinda feel like that's where my wife is with sex. DC
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Post by DryCreek on Jun 1, 2016 14:24:31 GMT -5
We can all make it " a bit longer" it's time to think about Dan. Can Dan take two more years? Dan will be what age in two more years? Could, should Dan take 25 more years of this? That part of Dan's post hit me too. All those motivational truisms also work in reverse... "One foot in front of the other", "The journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step", "One day at a time". "Maybe tomorrow will be better" has replayed here for 25 years. It doesn't effect change. It's effective for getting through a bad period, but can also let a bad situation continue for too long. One year from now, we're all a year closer to being dead - did we use the time wisely? |
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Post by JMX on Jun 1, 2016 14:56:29 GMT -5
@dan - I am proud of you for talking openly and honestly with her now! I think I remember that you were reluctant before, although it reads as if this has been an on-going conversation. I know that before you thought she would break, and even though she is clearly not happy about where this is going, she needs to hear it and you need to hear yourself saying it to her.
I do so look forward to reading the words - "I told my wife I wanted a divorce". That would make me happy for you, but oh well, each in our own time, eh?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 14:57:28 GMT -5
It's on her to regain your trust. I believe in most of the cases here, a genuine apology, followed up with consistent sex would bring an untrusting partner back. But as long as she doesn't take ownership of the situation, and places the majority of the blame back on you, there will be no resolution. You probably have done most of what you could, don't let her historical revision make you second guess yourself. And - a genuine apology followed up with consistent sex has to STAY that way. It can't be followed by another period of refusing...then lather-rinse-repeat. I feel for you, dan. I know you are in a bad place right now. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 1, 2016 16:09:15 GMT -5
"I NEVER listen to her" and " too beaten down to have a normal sex life".
Sorry to say Dan, but these are classic refuser ploys to try to shift blame, and deny any responsibility.
Look for those red flags, NEVER and ALWAYS. They are lies exaggeration , and manipulative controlling tactics.
No one should tolerate it.
I hope you can receive individual counceling from this same councilor that has heard from your wife.
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Post by warmways on Jun 1, 2016 16:25:27 GMT -5
I'm sorry you're going through this. I understand when you talk about not knowing whether to trust yourself as to whether she is being selfish to you or loving. It messes with your head. LIASM isn't normal so it makes us feel off kilter making it hard to know what to believe sometimes. Hang in.
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