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Post by bozodeclowne on Feb 27, 2020 17:25:24 GMT -5
Hi neighbors! Same story we've all heard before. Early fifties and the bed is dead...dead...dead. So how did I get here you ask?
Exactly 1 year ago, I realized that we'd entered a new chapter of our sexless marriage. We'd started off like many - young kids madly in love, going at it like rabbits here, there and everywhere. Marriage, children and careers tamped that down quickly. The usual challenges along the way - first child with a rare medical condition, a layoff, health concerns of our own. Nothing most don't experience to one degree or another.
Along the way, I'd made all of the usual mistakes - covert contracts, chore play, calendar-keeping*, multiple versions of "The Talk", etc. 28yrs married, together for 30. Completely sexless for 4 years now, with the previous 10 being mostly very-infrequent duty sex. Resentment piled sky-high, and I left the bedroom for an old futon in the basement, where I remain to this day. She now has a condition that means PIV sex is no longer an option, not that it or anything else is actually on offer.
So back to today. At this time last year I realized that my wife had not touched me for the first two months of the year, and the last 2 months of 2018. That period included Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, my birthday and Valentine's day. Oof. Now, we're not talking about sexuality/sensuality here. I mean no contact at all. No display of affection, no accidentally bumping into each other in the kitchen or hall, no goofing around back slap or shoulder punch. Zilch, nada, nothing. At the end of February, I called her on it, and received the usual "I don't know". I expressed my displeasure and what followed was about 3 weeks of fakery. At that point we had a minor, unrelated argument and she declared how glad she was not to "have to do that anymore". This behavior has continued to present day, with two exceptions - she grabbed my hand at our niece's wedding in November while surrounded by her family, and attempted a hug in the midst of Christmas dinner with my family. Call me cynical, but I don't see a lot of sincerity there.
So here I am, married in name only. I've learned enough over the past 5 years of self-reflection to no longer believe there is any chance of fixing this. I've pulled back a bit and while her behavior has not changed I have noticed a curious difference in tone in the cards (birthday, anniversary, etc) she gives to me. Now filled with flowery statements about what a good man I am and how she can't wait to spend our empty nest years together. I choose to believe action over those empty words.
We have one child left to launch in the next couple of years and then I don't know what. Divorce for me looks pretty bleak. She earns about 37% more than I do and will have a nice pension at 62. I stupidly put off saving for retirement for far too long, and will be lucky to save what will be equivalent to 4 years of her pension by the time I croak. Still might be worth it to escape this hell.
Anyway, that's why I'm here. Seems like I'll be around for a while as I try to find my way. On the plus side, I've learned so much about myself, human nature and the way the world works over the past 4 years. All I need now is a time machine and I'll be golden!
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Post by bozodeclowne on Feb 27, 2020 17:32:57 GMT -5
Funny anecdote re: the calendar-marking days - I'd taken to placing a small checkmark on the calendar as so many of us have done to prove to ourselves that it really had been that long. Shortly before I stopped, there was a period where the time between sexual encounters was EXACTLY 8 months, to the day. This happened 3 times in a row, so 4 sexual encounters were: sex...8mo dry spell...sex...8mo dry spell...sex...8mo dry spell...sex.
WTH?!?!
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Post by baza on Feb 27, 2020 17:48:42 GMT -5
Suggestion - See a lawyer in your jurisdiction to establish how a divorce would shake out for you. It is quite possible that your missus might have to pay you some support given she's been earning more than you. And it might be to your advantage to divorce asap rather than in 2 years time. Get yourself fully informed Brother bozodeclowne . Acquiring that knowledge commits you to exactly nothing but it is the cornerstone of you creating a viable alternative to continuing on as you are. Welcome to the zoo.
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Post by Handy on Feb 27, 2020 20:24:11 GMT -5
bozodeclowne your store reads like so many others here. Welcome to the club you don't like to belong to. Answers? Baza has the best answer so far. Spouses rarely or never change so just believe what you see (actions) and not what your W tells you.
You said your W can't have PIV sex so that makes it extremely difficult to have a sex life. Some women do not like to do anything other than PIV.
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Post by bozodeclowne on Feb 28, 2020 13:56:09 GMT -5
Thanks, guys. I have looked into divorce, and we have spoken about it once or twice. At this point, there is a couple of years worth of work to do on the house, and at least that for me in efforts to self-improve, so it's not really something I see in the immediate future.
That's barring any new revelations. The past 3 years have seen a few utterances that I'm reasonably sure point to some long-ago infidelity. Almost impossible to confirm absent a confession, but if so I'm gone asap.
Regardless, I'm here to figure out how to cope, and hopefully restore enough self-esteem to where I can see the potential for a brighter future.
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Post by saarinista on Feb 29, 2020 14:43:01 GMT -5
bozodeclowne Welcome to the zoo! Btw, I agree you should talk with a lawyer about the financial part of a divorce for you. As a woman, I'm tired of seeing men living in misery because their wives assume that all the money is "theirs." That's BS. Women who earn more should have to share their portion of the marital assets in a divorce just like men. That's better for the man, and selfishly,for their next partner (if any) too. But anyway, fair is fair. Don't let her take everything because she's the woman. Please!
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Post by jim44444 on Mar 1, 2020 10:05:41 GMT -5
bozodeclowne , you state that the divorce option has been discussed. You further state that it is not something in your immediate future. However, have you considered that she is also unhappy in the relationship and could file for a divorce? She may already have an exit plan and legal advice. Do you?
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Post by bozodeclowne on Mar 2, 2020 11:20:48 GMT -5
bozodeclowne , you state that the divorce option has been discussed. You further state that it is not something in your immediate future. However, have you considered that she is also unhappy in the relationship and could file for a divorce? She may already have an exit plan and legal advice. Do you? That's a fair point. One of her friends is a personal injury lawyer, and I'm sure would be happy to set her up with a shark. I do know my wife has the capacity to lie by omission and feel completely justified over long periods of time. If this sort of thing was in the cards, I would expect her to wait until our youngest is off to college. She continues to maintain that she wants to stay married and try to fix us, but thus far that has been all talk. On the plus side, I'm now much more in tune with what she does vs. what she says, and have been actively calling her out when the two don't match. I've also grown enough to recognize my part in us reaching this point, and we've had some good talks around that. All of those have been initiated by me, and I get the sense that she believes if we have one of these talks, then we're good for a few months until I object again. Rinse and repeat... I did do a freebie consultation years ago, but was focused on what child custody would look like, and now that the children are (mostly) grown my goals would be different. Sounds like its time to do some more consultations and find a decent fit. I hate this.
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Post by northstarmom on Mar 3, 2020 11:54:48 GMT -5
Boxodeclpwn; “ We have one child left to launch in the next couple of years and then I don't know what. Divorce for me looks pretty bleak. She earns about 37% more than I do and will have a nice pension at 62”
I bet your wife plans to divorce after your last child is launched. I bet she has been making financial SMs personal plans accordingly. From what you’ve described, your marriage is in its deathbed. See a lawyer and start planning for your future.
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Post by bozodeclowne on Mar 4, 2020 16:10:00 GMT -5
You would think, right? We share financials and some electronic devices, and there is no sign of any movement in that direction. Perhaps she is waiting for the empty nest? I'm a logical guy, and I can't for the life of me understand how someone can think a dead bedroom that progresses into a dead relationship is no big deal. I recently described our relationship as dead, and she was honestly surprised by that characterization. This is an intelligent, highly educated woman. How does she not see the obvious?
The weird thing is there is no animosity or derision aimed toward me. She is perfectly pleasant, just apathetic. Perhaps she thinks of me as a coworker/housemate? We co-parent, share the household responsibilities and spend time together. I pointedly asked her "Do you want to stay married to me, and if so why?" Her response was yes, "because you are an ethical man". Ah, what every spouse wants to hear!
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Post by worksforme2 on Mar 4, 2020 17:28:20 GMT -5
I recently described our relationship as dead, and she was honestly surprised by that characterization. This is an intelligent, highly educated woman. How does she not see the obvious? My X was an executive assistant to a VP in a major corporation. She made nearly as much as me and is a very intelligent woman. (I was a project mgr. for a commercial const. company). We were talking some months after the divorce and she said" she never expected to be divorced again". This surprised me. After numerous conversations where I stated how unhappy I was with the lack of affection and intimacy between us. And after I expressly stated I could not stay in a SM with little to no love shown toward me. Over our 20 plus year relationship I had never lied to her or given her reason to think I would not do exactly what I said I intended to do. Why would she not believe that I would not continue in the marriage if things didn't change? Exactly what did she think was likely the obvious outcome going forward if she didn't change? Clearly she did not see the train coming straight at her. Perhaps your W has the same blinders on.
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Post by bozodeclowne on Mar 5, 2020 13:01:01 GMT -5
Every once in a while I think she takes those blinders off briefly. For example, we had a discussion while driving a while back where she finally acknowledged how tough it must have been for me to face the near constant rejection over the years. I had been explaining that and what it was doing to me for a decade. So what changed? I started pulling back a bit - less interested in hearing the details of her day, less committal in regard to future plans, more "roommate-like" interaction, etc. Apparently, those small changes caused her to feel a bit of rejection herself. Not enough to motivate any change in her behavior, of course, so I'm not sure there is any real empathy there. I'm pretty cynical, but don't think this was a conscious attempt at manipulation. Still, it was enough for me to reset closer to "normal", so she ends up back in her comfort zone once again.
I do want to thank all of you for allowing me to get this out and providing your thoughts. It's not exactly the sort of stuff we share with family and close friends, is it?
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Post by saarinista on Mar 26, 2020 20:14:50 GMT -5
bozodeclowne one thing I didn't notice in your narrative (and forgive me if I missed it) but I'm wondering: do YOU really feel that much like having sex with your wife anymore? Does she still turn you on? Or is it more that you are feeling annoyed that she's rebuffing you and keeping you from getting your sexual needs filled? I'm just wondering if BOTH of you are sort of over one another? It happens. Or does she still really float your boat?
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Post by bozodeclowne on Mar 27, 2020 16:14:54 GMT -5
Honestly, any desire that is left at this point is probably nostalgia more than anything. I haven't attempted to initiate since late 2016, 20 years ago, I was annoyed but equally confused by the SM. Not so much annoyed anymore, but am still driven to chase the "whys". How did we get here, and why won't she be honest about it? A sex life fading over the years is one thing, but there have been a couple of light-switch type moments in that time where I never got more than an "I don't know". Something that was her very favorite act suddenly being completely off the table, with no explanation. That sort of thing. The latest twist as outlined in my OP is just a whole other level of WTF because is goes beyond sexuality into the realm of everyday affection. I can't take it anymore and demand an explanation, she offers some BS "I don't know" reply, agrees we need to work on it and then back to status quo until I boil over again.
As an older guy, I know I'm not going to be getting out there and wooing all the ladies! Still, the thought that the sexual side of my life is over is hard to accept. The body may be less willing now, but my mind can't seem to get with the program. The fact that my wife not only wants nothing to do with me physically, but also doesn't seem to care how that affects me, all the while insisting she loves me, is something I will never understand.
At this point, I'm just struggling to keep the resentment in check.
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Post by saarinista on Mar 27, 2020 22:37:24 GMT -5
The sexual side of your life is only over if you DECIDE it is.
You're in your early to mid 50s. There are tons of women out there who would likely be interested in you sexually and otherwise.
I'm a 59 year old woman who's also in a frustratingly sexless marriage. No sex (save one delightful outsourcing incident) in 10 years.
I sure hope all the somewhat older men aren't giving up on sex and love or I'm as "screwed" if you'll pardon the pun, as you are, if not more so.
The idea that older women are not into sex is wrong. Some aren't, some are. Frankly, I think a lot of us, regardless of gender, are in marriages that either never were great, or they just faded.
I continue to believe that the concept of lifelong marriage given today's modern life spans as opposed to those in biblical times is quite unrealistic for many of us. Honestly after 20 or 30 + years, some couples just grow apart. I really wish we could stop condemning those folks. A 20 or 30 year exclusive relationship is pretty darn good. If it ends as a marriage, why not let it continue as a friendship and move on?
Now, I haven't done it yet. I know it's hard to do. It would be easier to do if our expectations were more realistic.
The idea that the ONLY GOOD marriage is one that's a sexually exclusive/ friendship /child-bearing/ economic/fiduciary relationship that ends only with the DEATHoff a spouse is, to me, outmoded.
Yet we cling to sexually dead marriages because we don't want to "fail," creating huge amounts of misery, loneliness and resentment! There must be a better way for things to be.
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