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Post by Handy on May 9, 2020 17:50:35 GMT -5
CSL
Leaving out religion/faith? You leave out the third party. [/b] I used to be the leader in the adult bible studies but have since come to the conclusion the Bible isn't always right or the way people actually can live by. That is why I asked the previous question. I am a believer in "what is good for the majority of the people and what I know about the idea of "Kohlberg's Moral Development Stages"
My idea is people should do the right things based on what is good for the majority of the people and not because there is a heaven or a hell and when you are dead, there is an after life, so a third party as you list, is only a belief and not an actual truth physically in the way I see things.. IOW, I want things to stand alone (people to people) without a third party that might be true or not actually exist. I am more likely to depend on statistics (prior events) than what some people think is to be true. When it comes to relationships, what works statistically is where I am coming from and what doesn't seem to work even if a "third party" says what to do and says it works.[/quote] |
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Post by angeleyes65 on May 10, 2020 0:12:21 GMT -5
I would be in the group longer than two years and got out...
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Post by northstarmom on May 10, 2020 10:44:12 GMT -5
Handy: “ Saarinista, I don' expect much from people so I rarely plan on anything in return except what I get because of public exchanges, like medical services. I can truly say I have had excellent medical care recently. Of course it has all been expensive and my insurance company has found ways to not pay some bills.“
If you don’t expect much from others you get a little fe that’s filled with takers. Presenting yourself to the world as someone who can do things for others - and do those things for free— means you have a life t of takers who also are unappreciative. Expecting give and take in a balanced way in relationship isn’t selfish. It’s respecting oneself and others. It’s not too late to at least start cultivating friendships with people who give as well as take. You are worthy of such consideration.
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Post by Handy on May 10, 2020 11:21:09 GMT -5
Northstarmom, I have male friends that are givers and takers, a sort of balance, which works well. It benefits both of us.
Women OTH, well they don't usually have much I want that they are willing to give. I will say 2 women are really nice to me but they want to be independent (no relationships) and want to be single and not be in any form of romantic relationship. They like their single life to come and go or do what ever they want anytime they want and having a man in their life sort of ties them down. An occasional friend is their limit.
I know I limit my contacts by staying home most of the time and somewhat limit my socializing, especially with this "stay at home mandate" from the government. Right now with my "DNA Miss-match Repair" treatments, I am super high risk so staying at home most of the time now makes sense.
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Post by mirrororchid on May 25, 2020 8:34:32 GMT -5
My vision of the Talk is more along the lines of " I can't do this anymore, and I'll be leaving". I'm certain she wouldn't accept any sort of open arrangement, though we haven't talked about it explicitly. I'm not sure I would be interested either, as my ideal would be a complete relationship with one person. Should such an arrangement be possible, pretty sure I wouldn't react well to a situation where she found immediate success while I floundered!  At any rate, my understanding of alternate arrangements is that there must be complete honesty between partners. As I discovered several years ago, my wife feels it is acceptable/justifiable to keep certain secrets from her partner, and take those to the grave. I can't go into specifics without being easily identifiable, but she recently reiterated that stance. This was a complete shock to me, and not at all in keeping with the person I knew her to be. If you divorce, and she's interested in a new husband, that too could produce her finding immediate success and you floundering. I don't know that you are dodging that bullet by divorcing rather than opening the relationship. (Though a divorced man has more prospects than a polyamorous man, from what I've seen.) As for the total honesty? How can there be trust? Trust is what allows you to believe your partner has your best interests in mind keeping those secrets from you. Check his phone? Learn of the surprise birthday party he had planned for you. Rifle his credit card statements, see the receipt for the Anniversary gift he got you. Ask if she's really a virgin? You lose the woman you love. Read her email? Find out your first wife (who you're still friends with) had been cheating on you for years. Do we trust our spouses to look out for us? Do we trust them to know when a secret will hurt us more than help? They can guess wrong. But do we believe them when they thought they were doing what was best? |
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Post by csl on May 25, 2020 13:38:09 GMT -5
That second part is a keeper, CSL. It says so much with so few words. Gee, now you've got me wondering what I said.  |
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Post by mirrororchid on May 26, 2020 5:59:07 GMT -5
That second part is a keeper, CSL. It says so much with so few words. Gee, now you've got me wondering what I said.
I deleted my misfire post. |
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Post by bozodeclowne on Jun 1, 2020 13:41:18 GMT -5
If you divorce, and she's interested in a new husband, that too could produce her finding immediate success and you floundering. I don't know that you are dodging that bullet by divorcing rather than opening the relationship. (Though a divorced man has more prospects than a polyamorous man, from what I've seen.) Fair point, but in a divorce most/all of the rest of the relationship ends, so while there might be some lingering jealousy/envy/sadness at a former partner's success, it's a bit less "in your face". Regardless, an open or poly relationship is not something that interests me, at least in theory, right now. This site is full of people whose partners are keeping secrets from them, despite being aware of the pain that is causing. Many here have never had a straight answer as to why they are in an SM. The litany of excuses a refuser provides are all lies, when boiled down. Are we to assume the truth is kept from the members here for their own best interest? I don't think so. The significant stuff is what matters. More often than not, it seems those secrets are held for the benefit of the holder, not in the best interest of their partner. Infidelity, gambling/substance abuse, running up large debts, criminality, etc? "I didn't want to hurt you/didn't want you to think less of me or leave me". Self-interest. In your example, I suppose there are some who would rather not know their friendly ex had been cheating on them for years. Can't say I really understand that mindset, as I'd much rather have brutal honesty than live a lie. At a minimum, I'd suggest they need a better class of friends!  |
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Post by mirrororchid on Jun 1, 2020 21:15:42 GMT -5
This site is full of people whose partners are keeping secrets from them, despite being aware of the pain that is causing. Many here have never had a straight answer as to why they are in an SM. The litany of excuses a refuser provides are all lies, when boiled down. Are we to assume the truth is kept from the members here for their own best interest? I don't think so. ...More often than not, it seems those secrets are held for the benefit of the holder, not in the best interest of their partner. Infidelity, gambling/substance abuse, running up large debts, criminality, etc? "I didn't want to hurt you/didn't want you to think less of me or leave me". Self-interest. No argument. Didn't say an SM was a good place to look for the kind of trust we expect within a marriage. Sometimes that trust isn't through evil intent, but through self-delusion. I imagine it's fairly common refusers don't know why they refuse. They haven't asked themselves. They don't care enough because it doesn't trouble them. Nothing inherently dishonest in that. Doesn't make it better, though. Those scenarios you raise in which self-interest is cloaked in shame don't bother me as much. They are accompanied by their own punishment of self-loathing as opposed to the situations in which an unapologetic Casanova or Jezebel has an affair simply because they think they won't get caught (because they know you trust them!) This doesn't say pain from such stark dishonesty is worse. Some would find it minimally bothersome to unload a gleefully cheating spouse. Haven't we seen how difficult it is to leave an earnest, forlorn refuser that's just plain screwed-up, but not willing/able to "sort out their own shit"? (copyright Baza, all rights reserved) |
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Post by bozodeclowne on Jun 2, 2020 16:07:03 GMT -5
Sometimes that trust isn't through evil intent, but through self-delusion. I imagine it's fairly common refusers don't know why they refuse. They haven't asked themselves. They don't care enough because it doesn't trouble them. Nothing inherently dishonest in that. Doesn't make it better, though. I'd tend to agree, but at least in this crowd most have asked for an answer because they don't understand the refusals. They have laid pain bare, often repeatedly over years. A refuser that doesn't expend any effort on self-reflection after all of that? Doesn't sound like someone that truly loves their partner. "I don't know" is either a lie, or confirms that lack of care. That is where my thinking is now. I know we all have a relationship ideal in our minds, one that is impossible to have. Still, I don't think it is too much to ask to have honest answers. If that means refusers must confront uncomfortable truths or the refused gets fed up and leaves, so be it. |
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Post by saarinista on Jun 2, 2020 19:32:17 GMT -5
bozodeclowne Why SHOULD refusers tell the truth if so doing MIGHT A hurt the refused, B. make them look bad, or C. we continue to tolerate their presence without sex or repercussions? There's no way for us to know whether the refusers know and say they don't to be expedient, or truly don't know why they've gone cold. All we can say see is their behavior. They refuse to engage in sex, which is something most all of them indicated they wished to do when they married. At some point the why no longer matters.
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Post by bozodeclowne on Jun 10, 2020 14:34:18 GMT -5
bozodeclowne Why SHOULD refusers tell the truth if so doing MIGHT A hurt the refused, B. make them look bad, or C. we continue to tolerate their presence without sex or repercussions? There's no way for us to know whether the refusers know and say they don't to be expedient, or truly don't know why they've gone cold. All we can say see is their behavior. They refuse to engage in sex, which is something most all of them indicated they wished to do when they married. At some point the why no longer matters. Why? Because telling the truth is the right thing to do. I realize that is no longer a popular sentiment, at least in the US. (A) While it may hurt, the refused discovers whether the underlying reason(s) is fixable, or if it is time to move on. (B) I'm not sure appearances factor in here. Not many of us are shouting our situations from the rooftops. In most cases friends and family have no clue. I do agree that at some point it no longer matters, and I am at that point now. My view on often repeated "I don't knows" - you are either lying or do not care about the relationship enough to put some effort into determining the root of the problem. Cases of past abuse aside, I really don't think there are too many instances where a previously-enthusiastic partner turns refuser without knowing why. My sample size is 1 though, so YMMV! Hopefully there is some value here for those who may read these posts in the future. I know hearing differing viewpoints in these threads has helped me to re-evaluate my circumstances. |
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Post by mirrororchid on Jun 12, 2020 5:40:52 GMT -5
bozodeclowne Why SHOULD refusers tell the truth if so doing MIGHT A hurt the refused, B. make them look bad, or C. we continue to tolerate their presence without sex or repercussions? There's no way for us to know whether the refusers know and say they don't to be expedient, or truly don't know why they've gone cold. All we can say see is their behavior. They refuse to engage in sex, which is something most all of them indicated they wished to do when they married. At some point the why no longer matters. Why? Because telling the truth is the right thing to do. I realize that is no longer a popular sentiment, at least in the US. (A) While it may hurt, the refused discovers whether the underlying reason(s) is fixable, or if it is time to move on. (B) I'm not sure appearances factor in here. Not many of us are shouting our situations from the rooftops. In most cases friends and family have no clue. I do agree that at some point it no longer matters, and I am at that point now. My view on often repeated "I don't knows" - you are either lying or do not care about the relationship enough to put some effort into determining the root of the problem. Cases of past abuse aside, I really don't think there are too many instances where a previously-enthusiastic partner turns refuser without knowing why. My sample size is 1 though, so YMMV! Hopefully there is some value here for those who may read these posts in the future. I know hearing differing viewpoints in these threads has helped me to re-evaluate my circumstances. In the case of A, some people feel telling the truth, and producing a "moving on" may be the greater of two evils. Evasion/deception is the right thing to do to save the marriage. Society often backs up their opinion of what is the right option. ILIASM may be of a different mind. Outsourcing might fix the problem without divorce, but similar societal condemnation might lead the refuser to think they are making the more moral/right choice still. We have a difference of opinion as to what constitutes the "greater good" than that held by refusers, but I can understand how refusers might justify their actions and their sense of morality might be commendable even as their goal is pretty shitty, (an assessment they may even agree with!) In the case of B, A will precipitate B to anyone even remotely acquainted with what "moving on looks like". Moving on, in itself, looks bad to many judgmental types in society. Almost anyone is the refuser's position knows discovery of the truth will inevitably happen. |
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