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Post by choosinghappy on Sept 24, 2018 12:23:34 GMT -5
Okay. Things have calmed down in my life; old home sold, I'm in my new home, it's furnished, and I'm starting to settle into regular life as a single mom now.
So now it's time to work on the actual DIVORCE.
My STBX has been good with both money and child-related matters which are the two biggest things. Money-wise, he has kept to his word and transferred 50% of savings, assets from sale of our house, and all bonuses into my personal account and I am still using our joint checking for expenses until we have a child-support agreement in place. Kid-wise, I basically have full custody and we have an amicable verbal agreement that he takes our son on one weekend day whenever possible (due to all his business travel) and we are both being flexible due to one another's schedules.
So things are workable and amicable right now.
He suggested we do a Collaborative Divorce. As I see it, that is basically a mid-point between regular divorce including litigation, and having a mediator. In collaborative divorce I believe each spouse has a lawyer, the two work together, and through a series of meetings outside of court, we come to mutual agreements on all necessary matters, WITH a financial specialist also present.
Has anyone done a collaborative divorce? Feedback? Are there pitfalls to watch out for?
My situation is currently very amicable which I would really like to continue with (especially for the sake of our son, and all the medical issues and decisions that will need to be agreed upon throughout his life) but my concern is that if I go the collaborative route, even with a financial specialist present, I may not end up in as good a financial position as I am entitled to if it were mandated by the courts. My STBX makes a LOT of money. We have many assets and I honestly don't even know where they all are since they are spread out amongst different kinds of accounts, retirements, stock options, physical property, etc etc. Will he still be required to be upfront with everything if we go with collaborative law?? He is a good person but I would not put it past him to conveniently "forget" about a certain chunk of money sitting in a CD or about his stock options... I do think he thinks of the money as "his" and not "ours" (I have been a stay at home mom for the last 3 years and even when I was working, my salary barely even factored into our overall income since there was such a huge income imbalance.) Even while he's transferred 50% of our savings into my personal account, after buying my new home using that money he's made a couple comments alluding to his thoughts of that being like a "gift" or something he's giving to me rather than 50% being mine in my own right. So I would not put it past him to think of things like stock options, retirement, etc. being HIS and not part of our joint assets.
(I know I'm blabbing, I'm sorry - I'm just trying to give a more holistic view of the situation.)
So my concern with collaborative divorce vs. litigated is that while it would be amicable and I think we would be good candidates for it, I don't want to end up in a worse financial position than I could be because I don't know what I don't know. But if I go the typical litigated route, not only could that sour things between us but it would also cost much more. Additionally, I do not want to screw myself over down the road on other things that could arise 10/15/20 years from now that aren't even on my radar at the present time.
I don't know if I am concerned over nothing though because we will each have a lawyer and there will also be a financial specialist at the meetings. So perhaps there is nothing to fall through the cracks?
Thoughts?
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 24, 2018 12:44:01 GMT -5
choosinghappy, probably best asked of an experienced local attorney. I guess I would first ask what happens if you don’t think you’re getting a fair deal in the collaborative method? If you can just pull the plug and litigate, then it doesn’t seem too scary. Then, I’d think the lawyers who’d collaborate are also skilled at litigating, so I’m not sure there’s a concern they would overlook something important in one case vs another. Perhaps, are you concerned that undiscovered assets are more discoverable under subpoena? Or does someone want agreement that the collaboration process is binding before you even start? In litigation, assets that were hidden have been known to be awarded 100% to the other party if discovered later. But more often than not, they get away with it (a la GreatCoastal’s ex). I’d equally think that unless some very broad language is added to the settlement (like, he gets all other things not explicitly listed), then the matter could’ve reopened for previously undeclared assets, but that could be an expensive fight. Like if he’s sitting on an ownership stake, options, a bunch of Bitcoin, or other assets that don’t trigger annual income / tax events.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Sept 24, 2018 12:53:18 GMT -5
The thought that pops into my head is why do you think you will get a better deal in a litigated divorce?
For financial piece of mind, the other thought is go the collaborative divorce route, but include "forensic" auditing of all marital property as a check box. Make it the financial advisor's idea so that there is no ill will towards you.
I know its not much but hopefully food for thought.
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Post by greatcoastal on Sept 24, 2018 14:55:27 GMT -5
Without digging through my past posts ,I remember wanting to do collaborative law. my attorney specializes in it. It was my attorney's decision to NOT do collaborative. Once my ex showed that she refused to give me enough money for groceries for 9 people, my attorney did not want to discuss collaborative anymore!
Also once you decide upon collaborative and if it does not work out and you do go before a judge your attorney can no longer represent you. You have to hire a new attorney.
I prefered mediation. it also gave me time to do more digging. A LOT of subpoenas to every bank that I could think of where we or she had done business.
I would suggest that you bring all your concerns about hidden investments to your attorney. Then see if your attorney still thinks collaborative is the way to go. Normally the last thing you want is to go before a judge. Usually your attorney can settle with his attorney farr better, in your best interest (money).
Things may not go as easy as expected once the MONEY factor comes in to play. Now is the time to STAND YOUR GROUND.
My thread titled "money, money, money....MONEY!!!" The first few pages, Tells my story about choosing to not go with collaborative. Another thread give a good definition of what collaborative law is,"collaborative versus Litigation".
Hope it helps.
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Post by greatcoastal on Sept 24, 2018 15:03:27 GMT -5
Allow me to also say, congratulations on your new place, getting things furnished and settled. WAY TO GO! That in itself is a major step forward! Count your blessings that you already have that taken care of. And it sounds like your parenting plan is decided too! You have already won half the battle!
Personally I had no idea where I was going to end up even after the divorce.
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Post by misssunnybunny on Sept 24, 2018 16:08:24 GMT -5
I had a collaborative divorce. It was much less stressful than going trough the litigation/dragging everything through court. He and I each had our own lawyers, then a mediator/collaborative divorce attorney who handled drawing up the paperwork. We had a few meetings with her to go through the process, and had our own lawyers go through the decree to be sure all was fair from each standpoint. We had to complete disclosure forms and include all income, savings, property, etc. The mediator was helpful in ensuring he and I both estimated properly for income needed after the divorce, and was very good at handling all of his nit-picky questions. I liked that mediation meant that all of the hashing out was between us, and not part of court record. Saved us a ton of fees as well.
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Post by hopingforachange on Sept 24, 2018 16:19:36 GMT -5
As long as he easily gives up the finical records easily then go for it. It should be cheaper, less stressful and quicker.
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Post by baza on Sept 24, 2018 21:49:21 GMT -5
Quoting you here choosinghappy - "So I would not put it past him to think of things like stock options, retirement, etc. being HIS and not part of our joint assets" You are a rational and smart person....but in these circumstances, you (or me or anyone) is out of our depth. That's why we engage a lawyer and take their advice. What does your lawyer suggest ? PS - you are a bit ahead of the game here. Oftentimes people have no clue what their financial position is, or their spouses, or the joint situation. You at least have some idea of what might be about. |
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Post by choosinghappy on Sept 25, 2018 5:59:16 GMT -5
“What does your lawyer suggest?” I haven’t put one on retainer yet baza. The ones I consulted with were not skilled in collaborative law so if we go this route I will need to find a new one. Thank you all for your comments. I think talking with my lawyer about my financial concerns and perhaps having a forensic auditing be the financial advisor’s “idea” might be the way to go so I can keep the peace. You all are right that collaborative lawyers are also skilled at litigation but tend to look at divorce as a joint problem to be solved rather than a fight. There should be nothing that falls through the cracks. Thanks for setting my mind at ease. I’ve decided collaborative is the best way to go and I’ll just ensure my lawyer knows my concerns. My STBX has never been through the process either so he wouldn’t know what it consists of regarding asking for financial info. |
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Post by shamwow on Sept 25, 2018 6:57:47 GMT -5
Okay. Things have calmed down in my life; old home sold, I'm in my new home, it's furnished, and I'm starting to settle into regular life as a single mom now. So now it's time to work on the actual DIVORCE. My STBX has been good with both money and child-related matters which are the two biggest things. Money-wise, he has kept to his word and transferred 50% of savings, assets from sale of our house, and all bonuses into my personal account and I am still using our joint checking for expenses until we have a child-support agreement in place. Kid-wise, I basically have full custody and we have an amicable verbal agreement that he takes our son on one weekend day whenever possible (due to all his business travel) and we are both being flexible due to one another's schedules. So things are workable and amicable right now. He suggested we do a Collaborative Divorce. As I see it, that is basically a mid-point between regular divorce including litigation, and having a mediator. In collaborative divorce I believe each spouse has a lawyer, the two work together, and through a series of meetings outside of court, we come to mutual agreements on all necessary matters, WITH a financial specialist also present. Has anyone done a collaborative divorce? Feedback? Are there pitfalls to watch out for?My situation is currently very amicable which I would really like to continue with (especially for the sake of our son, and all the medical issues and decisions that will need to be agreed upon throughout his life) but my concern is that if I go the collaborative route, even with a financial specialist present, I may not end up in as good a financial position as I am entitled to if it were mandated by the courts. My STBX makes a LOT of money. We have many assets and I honestly don't even know where they all are since they are spread out amongst different kinds of accounts, retirements, stock options, physical property, etc etc. Will he still be required to be upfront with everything if we go with collaborative law?? He is a good person but I would not put it past him to conveniently "forget" about a certain chunk of money sitting in a CD or about his stock options... I do think he thinks of the money as "his" and not "ours" (I have been a stay at home mom for the last 3 years and even when I was working, my salary barely even factored into our overall income since there was such a huge income imbalance.) Even while he's transferred 50% of our savings into my personal account, after buying my new home using that money he's made a couple comments alluding to his thoughts of that being like a "gift" or something he's giving to me rather than 50% being mine in my own right. So I would not put it past him to think of things like stock options, retirement, etc. being HIS and not part of our joint assets. (I know I'm blabbing, I'm sorry - I'm just trying to give a more holistic view of the situation.) So my concern with collaborative divorce vs. litigated is that while it would be amicable and I think we would be good candidates for it, I don't want to end up in a worse financial position than I could be because I don't know what I don't know. But if I go the typical litigated route, not only could that sour things between us but it would also cost much more. Additionally, I do not want to screw myself over down the road on other things that could arise 10/15/20 years from now that aren't even on my radar at the present time. I don't know if I am concerned over nothing though because we will each have a lawyer and there will also be a financial specialist at the meetings. So perhaps there is nothing to fall through the cracks? That houghts? It depends upon your jurisdiction and the person you are "collaborating" with. I did a collaborative divorce with my ex. She got a bit greedy ("I think I should get 55 percent and you 45 percent" without any reason why) but I was able to use a combination of carrots and sticks (sometimes using a carrot as a stick) to get things back on track. The second divorce I've been involved with is ballofconfusion. Honestly, both of us would prefer to engage in a more collaborative divorce, but he isn't someone you can collaborate with. Hell, he refuses to produce statements and just produces lists of what she owes. He manufactures past conversations. He is untrustworthy. They tried mediation and it was an unmitigated disaster. Her divorce drags on because he is making it a bare knuckle fight and if she caves he will continue pounding her into the ground. So we fight, even though our main wish would be for this to be over. The only real advice I can give you is get an advocate on your side who understands things. Then if you can get it done quick? Do it quick. You might not be happy about everything in the end. Neither will he. But I can tell you being done is way better than it lingering on. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Sept 25, 2018 7:32:31 GMT -5
I’ve decided collaborative is the best way to go and I’ll just ensure my lawyer knows my concerns. My STBX has never been through the process either so he wouldn’t know what it consists of regarding asking for financial info. Just remember, his lack of experience can change quite quickly. Friends, relatives, attorneys, all the people he works with, will have past experience, and will be advising him too. I am only speculating, but I can imagine that whatever knowledge or advice he has in regards to money and investments, there will be just as much knowledge and advice in ways to hide it, keep it, and work around the system. I could prove when the money was removed, I could prove who did it, but I then had to prove "where is it now?" I went through deposition. her answers where " I have no idea, or I don't know" and she got away with it. my ex works at G.E. she has gov't clearances. Everything is locked up on computers. I've read stories of people who did get access to such things. That too costs lots and lots of time and money. |
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Post by shamwow on Sept 25, 2018 7:44:43 GMT -5
I’ve decided collaborative is the best way to go and I’ll just ensure my lawyer knows my concerns. My STBX has never been through the process either so he wouldn’t know what it consists of regarding asking for financial info. Just remember, his lack of experience can change quite quickly. Friends, relatives, attorneys, all the people he works with, will have past experience, and will be advising him too. I am only speculating, but I can imagine that whatever knowledge or advice he has in regards to money and investments, there just as much knowledge and advice in ways to hide it, keep it, and work around the system. I could prove when the money was removed, I could prove who did it, but I then had to prove "where is it now?" I went through deposition. her answers where " I have no idea, or I don't know" and she got away with it. my ex works at G.E. she has gov't clearances. Everything is locked up on computers. I've read stories of people who did get access to such things. That too costs lots and lots of time and money. GC, from all accounts, @choosinghappy husband seems to be playing above board so far. So, while vigilence is a wise course of action, she appears to have surrounded herself with smart people and there is a foundation upon which a collaborative divorce can be built upon. As to her original question, it sounds as though collaborative divorce could be a good option so long as she trusts him, she doesn't get greedy, and both of them put the welfare of their child first. You didn't have that with your ex. ballofconfusion sure as hell doesn't have it with her ex. But I was able to work out a collaborative solution with my ex. She may be able to do the same thing with her stbx. |
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Post by shamwow on Sept 25, 2018 7:46:58 GMT -5
One suggestion. If you haven't lawyered up yet, you might want your stbx to recommend an attorney he/she has collaborated with in the past (or vice versa).
One of thing people overlook, but lawyers are human too and if there is a clash between THEIR personalities it can have an impact on them working collaboratively.
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Post by greatcoastal on Sept 25, 2018 8:07:02 GMT -5
Just remember, his lack of experience can change quite quickly. Friends, relatives, attorneys, all the people he works with, will have past experience, and will be advising him too. I am only speculating, but I can imagine that whatever knowledge or advice he has in regards to money and investments, there just as much knowledge and advice in ways to hide it, keep it, and work around the system. I could prove when the money was removed, I could prove who did it, but I then had to prove "where is it now?" I went through deposition. her answers where " I have no idea, or I don't know" and she got away with it. my ex works at G.E. she has gov't clearances. Everything is locked up on computers. I've read stories of people who did get access to such things. That too costs lots and lots of time and money. GC, from all accounts, @choosinghappy husband seems to be playing above board so far. So, while vigilence is a wise course of action, she appears to have surrounded herself with smart people and there is a foundation upon which a collaborative divorce can be built upon. As to her original question, it sounds as though collaborative divorce could be a good option so long as she trusts him, she doesn't get greedy, and both of them put the welfare of their child first. You didn't have that with your ex. ballofconfusion sure as hell doesn't have it with her ex. But I was able to work out a collaborative solution with my ex. She may be able to do the same thing with her stbx. Seems to be.Appears to have, could be, as long as, she may be ...her attorney should not go on those things. It comes back to "trust yet verify". That's my advice from experience. |
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Post by shamwow on Sept 25, 2018 8:09:42 GMT -5
GC, from all accounts, @choosinghappy husband seems to be playing above board so far. So, while vigilence is a wise course of action, she appears to have surrounded herself with smart people and there is a foundation upon which a collaborative divorce can be built upon. As to her original question, it sounds as though collaborative divorce could be a good option so long as she trusts him, she doesn't get greedy, and both of them put the welfare of their child first. You didn't have that with your ex. ballofconfusion sure as hell doesn't have it with her ex. But I was able to work out a collaborative solution with my ex. She may be able to do the same thing with her stbx. Seems to be.Appears to have, could be, as long as, she may be ...her attorney should not go on those things. It comes back to "trust yet verify". That's my advice from experience. Agreed, but she is certainly a leg up since she seems to have the trust box checked. |
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