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Post by iceman on Aug 23, 2018 11:10:21 GMT -5
Last week my wife and I had our most frank and intense conversation to date about our marriage. It started out with both of us very angry with lots of yelling and throwing out accusations but we eventually worked through that and calmed down to be able to have a real conversation. It was very emotional. I openly talked about leaving. She seemed to fully accept that possibility. I talked about how I was no longer in love with her and really didn’t enjoy her company. We even talked about how things might work with the kids. It was a calm conversation, emotional but calm. That part was good.
However, when I would I talk about my perception of where our marriage fell apart she took no responsibility at all and turned it around to the point where everything is my fault. She said she pulled away from me because I made it clear that I didn’t want her in my life which I understand at this point. I have pulled away and disengaged from our marriage over the last few years. I fully admit that. But from my perspective I pulled away when I had given up on trying to find intimacy, both physical and emotional, with her because of her indifference towards me and saw no possibility of her changing. She seems to be glossing over that part.
She also said she doesn’t believe in divorce and felt marriage should contiube through the really hard times even if we’re perpetually unhappy. Really? We should go through life in a state of unhappiness because we made the mistake of marrying each other? I always suspected this is her view of marriage. It’s the model of marriage her parents showed her.
I came away very confused. She was so masterful, even if her intent wasn’t to sow confusion in me, that I’ve begun to doubt myself. I’ve always felt that I had the high moral ground but after this I can’t help to ask myself, ‘am I the problem?’ If I work harder can the marriage be saved? Or have I been supremely gaslighted?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 11:32:32 GMT -5
iceman, what is causing you to consider that her definition of marriage is okay for you? You are unhappy. She's not willing to work on it (it seems.) Isn't that a deal breaker?
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Post by ironhamster on Aug 23, 2018 11:35:06 GMT -5
Is her goal to be happy, and to help you be happy, or just to prolong the misery because of some thought process like "that is what good people do"?
I no longer subscribe to the theory that keeping a spouse the refuser claims to love in emotional agony is something a loving person does. If my situation had been reversed with my refuser, I would have been on my hands and knees begging for her to fire up a Tinder account so she could get what I could not give her. That is what love looks like. That is what caring looks like. Enduring the abuse and unhappiness because "that is what good people do" is bullshit. There is nothing loving about torture.
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Post by workingonit on Aug 23, 2018 11:36:06 GMT -5
iceman thank you! This is a timely post for me. I feel like I have gotten really clear we are going to separate and are headed in that direction. It feels true and right to me to accept that we are just not compatible and focus on moving on. However, our family circumstances require that we stay together for at least the next year. To me this is frustrating but not a big deal- we have been living as roomates/friends for years so another year or so won't kill me (likely). However, my h is suddenly mr marriage, mr lets fix it, mr I think we should have sex. It is making me doubt the hard won awareness I have fought to have over the last 9 years. It is making my plan to coexist very hard because he is just constantly pushing this agenda. And after having wanted to hear this for so long it is fucking with my head. I no longer want to work on fixing it (despite my name) but his attitude is making me feel like I am the problem. Keep letting us know how you are managing this doubt. I am there with you!
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 23, 2018 11:55:57 GMT -5
Iceman said: “She also said she doesn’t believe in divorce and felt marriage should contiube through the really hard times even if we’re perpetually unhappy.”
She doesn’t need to believe in divorce for you to divorce her. If you don’t want to stay married, talk to a lawyer to see how a divorce would shake out.
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 23, 2018 12:05:35 GMT -5
She also told you that unhappiness is totally acceptable in her world. The only way to solve that is change. ( so that gives her the right to say you have to have no joy too? NOT!!) That means her having to face her fears and give up control. Instead she pulls DARVO on you and puts all the blame on you. Denial, Avoidance, Reversal, making her the victim and you the Offender.
She also took a pledge and a vow to have and to hold, to honor and cherish to love and respect, till death do us part. She continues to break those vows and sweep them under the rug. You are being mentally abused (and perhaps physically abused) and have every right according to God's word, (not a religion) to end a toxic marriage.
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Post by ironhamster on Aug 23, 2018 12:12:04 GMT -5
If she does not believe in divorce, you might want to put that to the test, and try outsourcing. She knows your needs and her limitations. Ask her under what conditions she would want you to outsource. Would it be ok if you spent a hundred bucks every two weeks on a hotel room, or if you could have a woman visit every Saturday night in your own room. Put some pressure on her. Let her know things will be changing. Let her know she can either have some buy-in, or not.
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 23, 2018 12:22:34 GMT -5
iceman thank you! This is a timely post for me. I feel like I have gotten really clear we are going to separate and are headed in that direction. It feels true and right to me to accept that we are just not compatible and focus on moving on. However, our family circumstances require that we stay together for at least the next year. To me this is frustrating but not a big deal- we have been living as roomates/friends for years so another year or so won't kill me (likely). However, my h is suddenly mr marriage, mr lets fix it, mr I think we should have sex. It is making me doubt the hard won awareness I have fought to have over the last 9 years. It is making my plan to coexist very hard because he is just constantly pushing this agenda. And after having wanted to hear this for so long it is fucking with my head. I no longer want to work on fixing it (despite my name) but his attitude is making me feel like I am the problem. Keep letting us know how you are managing this doubt. I am there with you! Oh dear lady!! You are struggling with your ingrained upbringing of putting others first and yourself last. Of being a rescuer? ( even a rescuer needs rescuing) You sound like you have the gifts of mercy and service. You gave him a lot. Self esteem, self worth, career, ego, status, etc... while he drained you dry and gave you back very little. Now he continues to move the goal post, dangle the carrot in front of you, offer you crumbs. What person stranded in a desert of a relationship can resist a drink of water? Fortunately you are seeing beyond that? learn from the past as you swing forward. Don't fall for his "word salads". We won't get fooled again! You have so much to offer someone who will respect , cherish, and desire you for your true wonderful self!
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Post by tiredoftears on Aug 23, 2018 12:23:31 GMT -5
I fully agree with ironhamster. Bring up the outsourcing. Worked a charm for me.
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Doubts
Aug 23, 2018 13:12:05 GMT -5
Post by iceman on Aug 23, 2018 13:12:05 GMT -5
Iceman said: “She also said she doesn’t believe in divorce and felt marriage should contiube through the really hard times even if we’re perpetually unhappy.” She doesn’t need to believe in divorce for you to divorce her. If you don’t want to stay married, talk to a lawyer to see how a divorce would shake out. Oh I get that I need to decide if I want to stay married or not and that decision is not dependent on her desires. I’ve always known that I would have to be the one to make the move. It would be nice if we could come to agreement that the best thing for both us is to divorce but it’s not necessary. THe part that is causing me distress is her refusal to take any responsibility for our problems. It’s so frustrating! But I guess it is something I’m just going to have to accept and move on. As I think about it, at this point it really doesn’t matter how the blame is distributed. If her delusional belief that I’m to blame for everything is what she needs to tell herself to get through this, and as long as she doesn’t try to place all the blame on me with the kids, so be it. Thanks
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Post by iceman on Aug 23, 2018 13:28:25 GMT -5
iceman thank you! This is a timely post for me. I feel like I have gotten really clear we are going to separate and are headed in that direction. It feels true and right to me to accept that we are just not compatible and focus on moving on. However, our family circumstances require that we stay together for at least the next year. To me this is frustrating but not a big deal- we have been living as roomates/friends for years so another year or so won't kill me (likely). However, my h is suddenly mr marriage, mr lets fix it, mr I think we should have sex. It is making me doubt the hard won awareness I have fought to have over the last 9 years. It is making my plan to coexist very hard because he is just constantly pushing this agenda. And after having wanted to hear this for so long it is fucking with my head. I no longer want to work on fixing it (despite my name) but his attitude is making me feel like I am the problem. Keep letting us know how you are managing this doubt. I am there with you! I’m sorry you’re going through that. Suddenly having saying what you’ve wanted to hear for so really must be tucking with your head. It certainly would mine if my wife suddenly started to want to have sex, real sex, not the i’m going to just lay here and not move sex, I’d be very confused. At least my wife doesnt really offer anything to entice me to stay, just the status quo. The only doubts i have is about myself at this point but I’ll work through it. Stay strong!!
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 23, 2018 13:28:39 GMT -5
iceman. This is a great post. The sincerity and frustration in your words come through clearly. I can relate to your SO's lack of ownership for the issues. Something that has helped me a lot over the last year is understanding boundaries. Your responsibility is to make her aware of what you are feeling. If she is receptive to that message or disagrees is not something you have control over. It is a waste of emotional energy to worry about that IMO. I think you should give yourself credit for trying to make yourself understood. Your next move should take into account her reaction or lack thereof. I dont believe it is conducive to a healthy mental state to become consumed by her apparent lack of ownership. If you can, move past it. THe part that is causing me distress is her refusal to take any responsibility for our problems. It’s so frustrating! Thanks
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Doubts
Aug 23, 2018 13:29:28 GMT -5
Post by iceman on Aug 23, 2018 13:29:28 GMT -5
She also told you that unhappiness is totally acceptable in her world. The only way to solve that is change. ( so that gives her the right to say you have to have no joy too? NOT!!) That means her having to face her fears and give up control. Instead she pulls DARVO on you and puts all the blame on you. Denial, Avoidance, Reversal, making her the victim and you the Offender. She also took a pledge and a vow to have and to hold, to honor and cherish to love and respect, till death do us part. She continues to break those vows and sweep them under the rug. You are being mentally (and perhaps physically abused) and have every right according to God's word, not a religion to end a toxic marriage. Well said!!
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Post by workingonit on Aug 23, 2018 13:32:47 GMT -5
iceman to be honest he is not offering me passionate desire and connection. What he is offering is that we can do therapy and between appointments do 1 thing like kissing, etc and then process openly and honestly with the therapist how that experience was for us. This is supposed to lead to the kind of passionate desire I need. He is not initiating or making moves or anything. He is making a very measured proposal. It is pretty damn unappealing now that I am explaining it.
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Doubts
Aug 23, 2018 16:49:23 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by shamwow on Aug 23, 2018 16:49:23 GMT -5
iceman perhaps it would help to articulate what it is you need in a marriage. Then articulate what you want in a marriage. If your needs aren't being met and you see no possibility of that happening then you have your answer. Leave. If your needs aren't being met but you see that they could be? Then you may want to stay and work on it. If your needs are being met but not your wants then it's more murky. But that doesn't sound like the situation here. In the end, everything in life is simple. First you figure out what you want. Second you figure out how to do it. Third you do it. Unfortunately the first step is usually hardest. Good luck, brother.
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