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Post by mirrororchid on Aug 6, 2020 9:13:41 GMT -5
... I'm currently in a reset since November of 2019 that seems to provide high quality, engaged intimacy where my wife is the initiator pretty much every single time. ... For anyone curious, more details of my situation are covered at the Introduce Yourself thread: iliasm.org/thread/2/introduce?page=48&scrollTo=130031In every recovery post I remember, credible divorce threats are what caused lasting resets/recoveries. Nothing less worked. In my case, all I did was credibly threaten monogamy. I started dating on OKcupid and she reset. She had also seen a therapist who I suspect talked some sense into her, so a threat to monogamy by itself may be inadequate. ... It's great to hear that you are getting high quality, engaged intimacy back in your marriage. It seems you have only threatened monogamy and started dating. But you haven't really "cheated", right? What has kept you from having intimacy with your dates? I would think that if your wife finds that you have had sexual relationship with someone else, it would be difficult for your marriage to recover. I think your approach of threatening monogamy instead of divorce makes sense. I don't want to divorce so it wouldn't be credible especially for me. There is a service in Japan, the wakaresaseya industry, that assists in either ending a marriage or helping it survive. Marriage requires a lot of help. www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200731-the-saboteurs-you-can-hire-to-end-your-relationshipIt depends on your definition of "cheating". I dated Melissa without my wife's knowledge. Had breakfast with her, walked around a lake, shook hands goodbye. Didn't hear from her again. (She had lots of offers. My pride was not wounded.) I saw Kathy for coffee without my wife's knowledge. She hugged me goodbye. She's a hugger. Intended to see her again. Kathy is all for it. Haven't yet because of the reset (and COVID) Such behavior is seen as ethically dubious and not without reason. My wife knew about Melissa before I dated Kathy and I never said I wasn't going to date so that second one is less dodgy, but prudes/refusers would say I'm splitting hairs. Lack of opportunity and need has been preventing intimacy with Kathy. I want intimacy from someone. Preferably my wife. My wife has been offering it, so... no need to make my wife feel bad. It is an unhappy thing that Kathy was interested and I felt compelled to refuse further dates (but COVID has made such refusal easier. My wife is high-risk.) If my wife doesn't wish to be intimate at less than half the lower end of the average frequency of married couples (three times a month was the floor I heard cited. Other articles cited a higher minimum), I'll explain I'm dating again with the intention of intimate physical connection. I'll delicately determine if she prefers disclosure or don't ask don't tell policy. Her mood lately has suggested this is likely to occur before 2020 is over. (talking about quitting her job lately makes me think she's cratering with her clinical depression. She won't switch to effective meds. "That's not the problem!" [Yes, m'dear. It fucking IS.]) People equate marriage with monogamy and that might not be unreasonable for non-refusers. I'd want a platonic life partner even if I divorced and had a FWB. Why not keep my wife? If I outsourced without telling her, I consider that "cheating". (We need different words for informed non-monogamy and secret non-monogamy) I'll be breaking the monogamy vow, but it shouldn't break trust. The lack of trust is what people say destroys marriages. I'm testing that hypothesis. Does the non-monogamy kill it too? So far, I've not needed to pull the pin in the grenade. My finger isn't even in the ring right now. When ex-wives explain their divorce, they'll often be able to say she "caught" her husband. What will my wife say? "Oh, he told me." What will be the response to their confused horror? Lie and say I wanted polygamy? Or tell the truth? "He's a horny bastard that insisted on sex once every three weeks. What a perv." I'm betting on lie, or silence when anyone asks why she filed for divorce. |
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Post by blueguy on Aug 6, 2020 12:04:27 GMT -5
I had a talk with my wife last night before she "took care of something I need". She told me flat out that she just doesn't have the desire for sex. That part is messed up in her brain as she put it. She wants me in regards to she likes hugs, hand holding, snuggling, etc, but not sex. She told me she doesn't understand why I feel so hurt by the lack of desire. I told her she will never understand it since I can't describe it to her. I told her that for a man, being sexually desired is a huge confidence boost. Right now, I don't have that confidence and it's a hit on my self esteem. She brought up her body image issues and told me she will never be comfortable with how she looks, and that's part of why she has no desire. I still think she's asexual.
Reluctantly we had sex but I really had to imagine other things to get off. I really didn't want to but she insisted she meet my need. I just hate that it takes so long to get her to a state where she's somewhat turned on. Even with lube it still hurts to get started since she doesn't really get turned on, and I feel horrible thinking I'm hurting her.
*Sigh*
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Post by saarinista on Aug 6, 2020 13:44:04 GMT -5
blueguy I'm glad she at least tried. I get mad at partners who won't even "inconvenience" themselves for their spouse. However, it does sound like she has body issues that are keeping her from feeling sexual. Sometimes we just can't believe our partners like us as we are, despite their saying they are attracted. When that's the case, we can feel less sexy. I can't remember. Has she gotten therapy? Or have the two of you gone?
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Post by csl on Aug 6, 2020 14:41:47 GMT -5
I had a talk with my wife last night before she "took care of something I need". She told me flat out that she just doesn't have the desire for sex. That part is messed up in her brain as she put it. She wants me in regards to she likes hugs, hand holding, snuggling, etc, but not sex. She told me she doesn't understand why I feel so hurt by the lack of desire. I told her she will never understand it since I can't describe it to her. I told her that for a man, being sexually desired is a huge confidence boost. Right now, I don't have that confidence and it's a hit on my self esteem. She brought up her body image issues and told me she will never be comfortable with how she looks, and that's part of why she has no desire. I still think she's asexual. Reluctantly we had sex but I really had to imagine other things to get off. I really didn't want to but she insisted she meet my need. I just hate that it takes so long to get her to a state where she's somewhat turned on. Even with lube it still hurts to get started since she doesn't really get turned on, and I feel horrible thinking I'm hurting her. *Sigh* bluegguy, OK, maybe she doesn’t understand your words, but she might understand the words of other husbands. Chris Taylor, of Forgiven Wife, has told how reading the stories of other husbands absolutely shook her to her core, and caused her to turn her marriage around. On her blog, she has a page on which many different husbands explain just how badly they are hurt and injured by sexual refusal. I include the link below, and I hope that if she is able to read what other husbands experience, she will understand what is happening with you. It’s a shot. forgivenwife.com/new-to-this-blog-start-here/understanding-your-husbands-hurt/ |
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Post by saarinista on Aug 6, 2020 15:52:24 GMT -5
That link from "The Forgiven Wife" contains some heartbreaking posts. 😔
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Post by csl on Aug 6, 2020 16:05:42 GMT -5
That link from "The Forgiven Wife" contains some heartbreaking posts. 😔 And she didn’t include the worst one she got. She did a post about an anonymous email in which the guy said, “It will look like an accident so she won’t have to worry about the stigma of it all.”  I hope that the post you read gets the point across to blueguy’s wife. |
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Post by isthisit on Aug 6, 2020 16:48:11 GMT -5
I had a talk with my wife last night before she "took care of something I need". She told me flat out that she just doesn't have the desire for sex. That part is messed up in her brain as she put it. She wants me in regards to she likes hugs, hand holding, snuggling, etc, but not sex. She told me she doesn't understand why I feel so hurt by the lack of desire. I told her she will never understand it since I can't describe it to her. I told her that for a man, being sexually desired is a huge confidence boost. Right now, I don't have that confidence and it's a hit on my self esteem. She brought up her body image issues and told me she will never be comfortable with how she looks, and that's part of why she has no desire. I still think she's asexual. Reluctantly we had sex but I really had to imagine other things to get off. I really didn't want to but she insisted she meet my need. I just hate that it takes so long to get her to a state where she's somewhat turned on. Even with lube it still hurts to get started since she doesn't really get turned on, and I feel horrible thinking I'm hurting her. *Sigh* Oh dear the super crappy sex sounds grimly familiar. My sympathies. The only thing worse than no sex is terrible sex. So, Mrs Blueguy took care of something YOU need? Not you both need? Every marriage needs? Is a reasonable expectation of a spouse? That sounds like a power play to me. It also struck me reading your post that all actions and inactions seem to be based on your wife’s terms. Blueguy would like sex, wife doesn’t = no sex. Mrs Blueguy wants sex and blueguy doesn’t = sex occurs even if in a terrible way. I wonder why this is? Why does your wife hold the casting vote in everything? I empathise with Mrs Blueguy’s mental health problems, body and self image issues but really these are her responsibility to address, or at least try to. You sound supportive and understanding so I am wondering whether there is an element of control and coercion here? While she is in the pity pit she’s untouchable in terms of taking responsibility for her choices and is maybe allowed to control the agenda at times? Finally, I agree that being sexually desired is a confidence boost. Just a gentle reminder that this relates to both genders. Being knocked back as a woman is no picnic either. I am sorry to hear of your circumstances. I hope you are able to improve your quality of life in other ways while you serve your time. |
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Post by lwoetin on Aug 7, 2020 0:52:53 GMT -5
People equate marriage with monogamy and that might not be unreasonable for non-refusers. I'd want a platonic life partner even if I divorced and had a FWB. Why not keep my wife? If I outsourced without telling her, I consider that "cheating". (We need different words for informed non-monogamy and secret non-monogamy) I'll be breaking the monogamy vow, but it shouldn't break trust. The lack of trust is what people say destroys marriages. I'm testing that hypothesis. Does the non-monogamy kill it too? So far, I've not needed to pull the pin in the grenade. My finger isn't even in the ring right now. When ex-wives explain their divorce, they'll often be able to say she "caught" her husband. What will my wife say? "Oh, he told me." What will be the response to their confused horror? Lie and say I wanted polygamy? Or tell the truth? "He's a horny bastard that insisted on sex once every three weeks. What a perv." I'm betting on lie, or silence when anyone asks why she filed for divorce. Do you think your wife would trust you if you are seeing other women? If she is making an effort to improve intimacy in your relationship, it seems counterproductive to bring up other women as a bargaining tool. And why settle for a platonic life partner and a FWB when you can go for a life with an intimate wife? I'm surprised you have the willpower to resist a sexual encounter with your dates. Perhaps you are not such a horny bastard after all. That must be a Jedi power. We are in similar situations, but without the sex, and I am more limited in my options. My wife has explicitly said that if I am interested in seeing other women, just let her know and we're done. Which I take to mean that she is willing to work on our marriage. |
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Post by worksforme2 on Aug 7, 2020 7:25:54 GMT -5
We are in similar situations, but without the sex, and I am more limited in my options. My wife has explicitly said that if I am interested in seeing other women, just let her know and we're done. Which I take to mean that she is willing to work on our marriage. Surely you have something more substantive than her threat of divorce to conclude she is willing to work on the marriage. She could just as easily be saying she will not relinquish control over your sex life and should you try to reclaim it she will punish you for your efforts at having a fulfilling life with intimacy. |
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Post by mirrororchid on Aug 7, 2020 10:29:52 GMT -5
People equate marriage with monogamy and that might not be unreasonable for non-refusers. I'd want a platonic life partner even if I divorced and had a FWB. Why not keep my wife? If I outsourced without telling her, I consider that "cheating". (We need different words for informed non-monogamy and secret non-monogamy) I'll be breaking the monogamy vow, but it shouldn't break trust. The lack of trust is what people say destroys marriages. I'm testing that hypothesis. Does the non-monogamy kill it too? So far, I've not needed to pull the pin in the grenade. My finger isn't even in the ring right now. When ex-wives explain their divorce, they'll often be able to say she "caught" her husband. What will my wife say? "Oh, he told me." What will be the response to their confused horror? Lie and say I wanted polygamy? Or tell the truth? "He's a horny bastard that insisted on sex once every three weeks. What a perv." I'm betting on lie, or silence when anyone asks why she filed for divorce. Do you think your wife would trust you if you are seeing other women? If she is making an effort to improve intimacy in your relationship, it seems counterproductive to bring up other women as a bargaining tool. And why settle for a platonic life partner and a FWB when you can go for a life with an intimate wife? I'm surprised you have the willpower to resist a sexual encounter with your dates. Perhaps you are not such a horny bastard after all. That must be a Jedi power. We are in similar situations, but without the sex, and I am more limited in my options. My wife has explicitly said that if I am interested in seeing other women, just let her know and we're done. Which I take to mean that she is willing to work on our marriage. If I'm sleeping with other women, I hadn't given much thought to what other issues of trust would come up, that first one is such a whopper. Apocrypha had given me pause though. It was my intention to grow fond of the ladies I'd share a bed with; care about their satisfaction. Not a few women that consent to mistresses draw up parameters of what is permissible. Polyamorous relationships have boundaries as well. In those relationships, if one is thinking a boundary is sacrosanct, one must negotiate it much as one does the infidelity, perhaps placing the marriage on the line if it's important enough. Perhaps my wife would want such restrictions as well. One absurdity I heard was an open marriage where kissing was prohibited. I snickered before I heard my prediction come true that the husband had broken that rule pretty quickly. That would not be something I'd agree to. I can't imagine saddling a lover with that hard line and have her be okay with it. Sex only, no other gestures of affection. Maybe you can watch "Pretty Woman" for your first date to set the right tone. Perhaps she'd fear divorce when I fell for a lover. Given the likelihood of divorce in a sexless marriage, it seems like there's little to lose. I've mentioned in other threads that on OKcupid, I limited my search and my messaging to married women. I wanted all my FsWB to have their own husbands and platonic lives. This, I hope, would diminish chances of any attempts to lure me away from my wife. Perhaps this would hep the trust issues. I was very pleased that Kathy offered to meet my wife to reassure her she was only after my body, not my life, but my wife and I weren't at that stage yet. I wasn't ready to pull the pin on the grenade and my wife reset before I was. If my wife makes me wait three weeks, I'll be dating Kathy, if she's still interested. On a third date, I may well not wish to resist. By the third date, we'd be looking at over a month of waiting. I've already warned my wife that wouldn't stand. She'll have had three opportunities to take our intimate life seriously. Leaving me frustrated for five weeks is a clear answer as to her priorities. My wife said she'd divorce me if I "cheated" on her. I called her bluff. She saw a therapist for an unrelated reason, but that's when the reset started. Your wife may be blowing smoke too. You have the same options I did. You're just more scared than I was of pulling the pin on the grenade. I see her demand that I be celibate just because she enjoys celibacy as a violation of monogamy. Zero lovers isn't monogamy. Neither is two. She chooses zero, I choose two. If she wants me to have only one lover, she's got to become one, or divorce me. After which, I'll still be sleeping with another woman, but she'll likely have far worse living conditions than she currently enjoys and she may get lonely, being clinically depressed and obese. (I don't mind, but objectively the market for a new husband is threadbare for those 100+ pounds overweight ladies.) "if I am interested in seeing other women, just let her know and we're done. Which I take to mean that she is willing to work on our marriage."
You can take it that way if you like. My first read is she's attempting to scare you out of an affair. She has no plans to lower your level of temptation. Flippant. Overconfident. What would happen if you said "I'm going out!", left the house for 90 minutes, and didn't explain yourself? If I have her read right, you just turned a ghostly pale at the thought. |
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Post by lwoetin on Aug 9, 2020 0:59:00 GMT -5
If I'm sleeping with other women, I hadn't given much thought to what other issues of trust would come up, that first one is such a whopper. Apocrypha had given me pause though. It was my intention to grow fond of the ladies I'd share a bed with; care about their satisfaction. Not a few women that consent to mistresses draw up parameters of what is permissible. Polyamorous relationships have boundaries as well. In those relationships, if one is thinking a boundary is sacrosanct, one must negotiate it much as one does the infidelity, perhaps placing the marriage on the line if it's important enough. Perhaps my wife would want such restrictions as well. One absurdity I heard was an open marriage where kissing was prohibited. I snickered before I heard my prediction come true that the husband had broken that rule pretty quickly. That would not be something I'd agree to. I can't imagine saddling a lover with that hard line and have her be okay with it. Sex only, no other gestures of affection. Maybe you can watch "Pretty Woman" for your first date to set the right tone. Perhaps she'd fear divorce when I fell for a lover. Given the likelihood of divorce in a sexless marriage, it seems like there's little to lose. I've mentioned in other threads that on OKcupid, I limited my search and my messaging to married women. I wanted all my FsWB to have their own husbands and platonic lives. This, I hope, would diminish chances of any attempts to lure me away from my wife. Perhaps this would hep the trust issues. I was very pleased that Kathy offered to meet my wife to reassure her she was only after my body, not my life, but my wife and I weren't at that stage yet. I wasn't ready to pull the pin on the grenade and my wife reset before I was. If my wife makes me wait three weeks, I'll be dating Kathy, if she's still interested. On a third date, I may well not wish to resist. By the third date, we'd be looking at over a month of waiting. I've already warned my wife that wouldn't stand. She'll have had three opportunities to take our intimate life seriously. Leaving me frustrated for five weeks is a clear answer as to her priorities. My wife said she'd divorce me if I "cheated" on her. I called her bluff. She saw a therapist for an unrelated reason, but that's when the reset started. Your wife may be blowing smoke too. You have the same options I did. You're just more scared than I was of pulling the pin on the grenade. I see her demand that I be celibate just because she enjoys celibacy as a violation of monogamy. Zero lovers isn't monogamy. Neither is two. She chooses zero, I choose two. If she wants me to have only one lover, she's got to become one, or divorce me. After which, I'll still be sleeping with another woman, but she'll likely have far worse living conditions than she currently enjoys and she may get lonely, being clinically depressed and obese. (I don't mind, but objectively the market for a new husband is threadbare for those 100+ pounds overweight ladies.) "if I am interested in seeing other women, just let her know and we're done. Which I take to mean that she is willing to work on our marriage."
You can take it that way if you like. My first read is she's attempting to scare you out of an affair. She has no plans to lower your level of temptation. Flippant. Overconfident. What would happen if you said "I'm going out!", left the house for 90 minutes, and didn't explain yourself? If I have her read right, you just turned a ghostly pale at the thought. It's like a chess match where you have a Queen and 2 rooks while your wife only has a bishop. She can surrender to you and offer sexual intimacy every 2 or 3 weeks, which is the likely outcome from your writing. Or do what my son did when he was about to lose...rage quit, and it becomes a draw. But she will have to live in a polyamorous marriage and it could be very tough on your marriage. In my situation, it's not that I am more scared than you. It's more that I have a pretty good idea of the outcome if I threaten monogamy and I don't want that outcome. Besides, sex is fun only if both partners are into it. Not the hurry up so I can sleep kind. I'm waiting patiently for this phase to pass. As long as women don't throw themselves at me, then I think I'll be faithful and true. And given that I resemble less of John Travolta and more of Danny DeVito.... |
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Post by lwoetin on Aug 9, 2020 1:23:02 GMT -5
We are in similar situations, but without the sex, and I am more limited in my options. My wife has explicitly said that if I am interested in seeing other women, just let her know and we're done. Which I take to mean that she is willing to work on our marriage. Surely you have something more substantive than her threat of divorce to conclude she is willing to work on the marriage. She could just as easily be saying she will not relinquish control over your sex life and should you try to reclaim it she will punish you for your efforts at having a fulfilling life with intimacy. Well, I can leave if I so chose. She would hate to lose a decent husband if she doesn't play her cards right. |
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Post by mirrororchid on Aug 10, 2020 6:14:28 GMT -5
If she wants me to have only one lover, she's got to become one, or divorce me. After which, I'll still be sleeping with another woman, but she'll likely have far worse living conditions than she currently enjoys and she may get lonely, being clinically depressed and obese. (I don't mind, but objectively the market for a new husband is threadbare for those 100+ pounds overweight ladies.) "if I am interested in seeing other women, just let her know and we're done. Which I take to mean that she is willing to work on our marriage."
You can take it that way if you like. My first read is she's attempting to scare you out of an affair. She has no plans to lower your level of temptation. Flippant. Overconfident. What would happen if you said "I'm going out!", left the house for 90 minutes, and didn't explain yourself? If I have her read right, you just turned a ghostly pale at the thought. It's like a chess match where you have a Queen and 2 rooks while your wife only has a bishop. She can surrender to you and offer sexual intimacy every 2 or 3 weeks, which is the likely outcome from your writing. Or do what my son did when he was about to lose...rage quit, and it becomes a draw. But she will have to live in a polyamorous marriage and it could be very tough on your marriage. In my situation, it's not that I am more scared than you. It's more that I have a pretty good idea of the outcome if I threaten monogamy and I don't want that outcome. Besides, sex is fun only if both partners are into it. Not the hurry up so I can sleep kind. I'm waiting patiently for this phase to pass. As long as women don't throw themselves at me, then I think I'll be faithful and true. And given that I resemble less of John Travolta and more of Danny DeVito.... Hm. Not sure about that chess analogy. Depending on who is more scared of the hand grenade, it's like walking up to that chess board mid game and you don't know yet whether you have black or white pieces to work with. A referee may walk up a half hour later and explain you have it switched and you're the one with the bishop. A rage quit with polyamory would be kind of a win, assuming I find an amiable FWB (no sure thing) and she doesn't engage in endless mind games trying to restore celibacy or pointlessly divorce me. If she tries to undermine my love life without making efforts to be my love life, that's just setting up a new board then, isn't it. Chess is so adversarial though and my wife is not a match for me in terms of strategy. I'd dust her. Given that advantage, it'd be supremely jerky to not be very accommodating for any reasonable compromise she's got. I want the sex I'm getting now, just a bit more frequent. She's found it reasonable for eight months, I'm not okay with her lowering the bar. Starfish sex is a deal breaker. The bigamy stays if she thinks that's substantially better than playing solitaire. It's not the sex, it's being physically validated. I'd be curious what oxytocin levels look like after lovemaking and starfish sex. I wonder if there's a big difference. I'd not be surprised if there was. Sorry to hear about the pulchritude handicap. Surely there's a Rita Perlman out there who figures she doesn't have a shot either. And don't play it so cool, either, dude. I have footage of you... Don't worry. Your secret is safe with me. |
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