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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 8, 2018 10:38:18 GMT -5
Very good news! I'm happy for you! I wish I could say I am ecstatic! But here comes my victim mentality due to experience. It's hard to believe there can be such a thing as bad oral sex, I've experienced that too. if you are only getting 10% of what you would really want is that okay? Are you lowering the bar for the sake of compromise? I hope that's not the case and it started at 100% or can gradually increase through communication. There are stories of grudgingly agreeing to having sex, then the refuser finds out it's not bad. I hope that's your case and it's not false hope. Bad oral sex involves teeth. Having been on the receiving end of such I can testify there IS such thing as bad oral sex. I don't think that's ever been discussed in any great length (no pun intended) on here, good verses bad oral sex. Not that it needs to be. Pictures or it didn't happen! (just kidding, just kidding!)
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Post by hopingforachange on Aug 8, 2018 10:46:35 GMT -5
Very good news! I'm happy for you! I wish I could say I am ecstatic! But here comes my victim mentality due to experience. It's hard to believe there can be such a thing as bad oral sex, I've experienced that too. if you are only getting 10% of what you would really want is that okay? Are you lowering the bar for the sake of compromise? I hope that's not the case and it started at 100% or can gradually increase through communication. There are stories of grudgingly agreeing to having sex, then the refuser finds out it's not bad. I hope that's your case and it's not false hope. Bad oral sex involves teeth. Having been on the receiving end of such I can testify there IS such thing as bad oral sex. With my previous partner, I found out amazing oral can involve nibbling but cheese grater oral is never good.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 8, 2018 12:10:54 GMT -5
Well, I think part of the value in trying counseling is that you can say to others later that "you tried". That being said... in your situation it sounds very extreme so I think your approach was a valid and reasonable one. On the flip side, if you wanted to be able to tell others later that "you tried", you could still go to counseling but then also have really high standards / dealbreakers / expectations (but still within the bounds of reasonableness)... criteria that you're pretty damn sure she will not be able to meet (especially with such a long history of bait and switch). If you tried counseling for a month, for example, and laid out all of your dealbreakers, etc., then the burden shifts over to her / the refuser / crazy person to try to make a reasonable effort on meeting your reasonable needs. If she can't do things that are reasonably expected in a marriage then she's even more so perceived as the "guilty" party and you look even better in the divorce (to family and friends).
Just my thoughts on another way to play it.
TL2
When I was in my SM, I often did worry about what others thought. It is a huge factor as to why I never outsourced. I didn't want to look like the "bad guy" to other people. The funny part is when we told the kids, my ex and I sent out texts to family and friends letting everyone know. We called those of them we were closest to. All expressed sympathy. None assigned "blame". And then they all went back to watching American Idol or whatever they had been doing before we gave them the news. Five minutes of thought at max is what our average family member or friend really put into it. If you don't believe me, think about a friend or family member who is divorced and how much you've thought about it (non drama divorces that is). So the "I tried everything" benchmark mainly exists within our own heads. That isn't to say it's meaningless. Being able to walk out with your "head held high" may be quite important. That is one reason that I never outsourced. So that if I ever left I wouldn't be a "bad guy". But make no mistake, my SM was turning me into a hard drinking, porn addicted, workaholic piece of shit. I was angry all the time, and it was getting increasingly harder to keep the lid on the pressure cooker. I was being transformed into an ACTUAL bad guy. No amount of couples counseling was going to fix that. And in the end almost nobody cares that I didn't give couples counseling a whirl. However, I do think individual therapy can be huge for people. Great points. Even if others would not end up thinking about it for that long (e.g. 5 minutes), it still would have been important to me (e.g. that we tried counseling) if the divorce situation played out.
My SM changed me for the worse as well... How can it not?! The longer it goes on, the longer I think it takes to try to get your life back on track even after a turnaround or starting a new chapter. I agree... Individual counseling can be great for people. Just wish there wasn't such a stigma with it because people rarely talk about it. If you break a bone, it's obvious and people always talk about it. If you have a serious or terminal illness, people *sometimes* talk about it (more so these days than in the past). If you have a need to talk to a psychologist / psychiatrist or counselor, people *rarely* talk about, and there is such a stigma. Bottom line: We should all be given credit for *trying* to get healthy and *happy* again. Aren't we all at our best when we are genuinely happy and healthy?
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 8, 2018 12:27:34 GMT -5
🙋♀️. We started off great - and it was about 3-4 years total - 2 with first baby. I will say - red flag - he was not into giving me oral (which I would not stand for again) nor was he very adventurous - which was kind of disconcerting considering a previous relationship that was full of that. Ultimately, I figured that would change, which was dumb - it went the other direction. I had the same issues. But it's slowly turning around. I'm not sure it will ever be adventurous, but there is finally oral happening. Hoping - What have you said or done to get your H to try oral sex? In my turnaround we still don't have oral going on. I've offered several times to my W and she doesn't want to go there. She has this thought or image in her head that once you go to oral and then if you kiss regularly again everything is going to be nasty / just dirty or gross. I've tried telling her that it's practically unheard of for a woman to deny receiving oral sex... only good things can happen (I won't mention or do the cheese grater technique!). Of course I'm also hoping the oral eventually goes both ways. I'm willing to go first though... not a problem. Any specific things that I should say? This is crazy but my W has very few close friends and none that she talks to about sex I'm sure.
TL2
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 8, 2018 12:47:39 GMT -5
I had the same issues. But it's slowly turning around. I'm not sure it will ever be adventurous, but there is finally oral happening. Hoping - What have you said or done to get your H to try oral sex? In my turnaround we still don't have oral going on. I've offered several times to my W and she doesn't want to go there. She has this thought or image in her head that once you go to oral and then if you kiss regularly again everything is going to be nasty / just dirty or gross. I've tried telling her that it's practically unheard of for a woman to deny receiving oral sex... only good things can happen (I won't mention or do the cheese grater technique!). Of course I'm also hoping the oral eventually goes both ways. I'm willing to go first though... not a problem. Any specific things that I should say? This is crazy but my W has very few close friends and none that she talks to about sex I'm sure.
TL2
I'm probably the worst person to be answering this, but... your W is avoiding and reversing,she is finding excuses. "Kissing is going to be nasty or just gross". Then keep a warm ,damp ,face cloth next to the bed,and a cup of mouthwash. Rinse wash, and repeat! There are ways to solve problems. And how many times have you kissed your wife and she has bad breath? Does that mean you are never going to kiss her again? of course not. How about when she farts in the bed? Are you never going to sleep with her again? Have you offered to give your W a shaving? That puts your face down in her private area. You can offer to do more once your hands are there.
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 8, 2018 12:53:50 GMT -5
Great points. Even if others would not end up thinking about it for that long (e.g. 5 minutes), it still would have been important to me (e.g. that we tried counseling) if the divorce situation played out.
My SM changed me for the worse as well... How can it not?! The longer it goes on, the longer I think it takes to try to get your life back on track even after a turnaround or starting a new chapter. I agree... Individual counseling can be great for people. Just wish there wasn't such a stigma with it because people rarely talk about it. If you break a bone, it's obvious and people always talk about it. If you have a serious or terminal illness, people *sometimes* talk about it (more so these days than in the past). If you have a need to talk to a psychologist / psychiatrist or counselor, people *rarely* talk about, and there is such a stigma. Bottom line: We should all be given credit for *trying* to get healthy and *happy* again. Aren't we all at our best when we are genuinely happy and healthy?
TL2
Every attorney that I spoke with all asked me the same thing, " did you try and save the marriage, did the two of you go for marriage counselling?" Like it's a state requirement or something, I'm not sure? However it was to my advantage to say yes, and for how long. it proves effort was made and it can not be fixed. I only wish my psychologist could have testified, had my case went to trial. It would have been so,so,much to my advantage!
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Post by hopingforachange on Aug 8, 2018 15:37:55 GMT -5
I had the same issues. But it's slowly turning around. I'm not sure it will ever be adventurous, but there is finally oral happening. Hoping - What have you said or done to get your H to try oral sex? In my turnaround we still don't have oral going on. I've offered several times to my W and she doesn't want to go there. She has this thought or image in her head that once you go to oral and then if you kiss regularly again everything is going to be nasty / just dirty or gross. I've tried telling her that it's practically unheard of for a woman to deny receiving oral sex... only good things can happen (I won't mention or do the cheese grater technique!). Of course I'm also hoping the oral eventually goes both ways. I'm willing to go first though... not a problem. Any specific things that I should say? This is crazy but my W has very few close friends and none that she talks to about sex I'm sure.
TL2
I'm a guy in a heterosexual marriage. I know it's hard to tell at times with user names. You have to realize there is nothing you can say or do that will make your partner want to give oral, it's something they have to decide on thier own. Marriage counseling helped big time with getting the W to realize that sex is not just about procreation and that it's about intimacy. Right now, the W is comfortable giving oral and at times enjoys it and at times it turns her on. *gasp* I still remember the therapist facial expression when the topic of oral came up. I think the therapist thought I wasn't getting bjs because I wasn't giving it back, and when I told her I love giving it and would give it even if I want receiving any, she instinctively shot my wife the, "girl your nuts" look before she caught herself and returned to the neutral party therapist look.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 8, 2018 19:02:58 GMT -5
Hoping - What have you said or done to get your H to try oral sex? In my turnaround we still don't have oral going on. I've offered several times to my W and she doesn't want to go there. She has this thought or image in her head that once you go to oral and then if you kiss regularly again everything is going to be nasty / just dirty or gross. I've tried telling her that it's practically unheard of for a woman to deny receiving oral sex... only good things can happen (I won't mention or do the cheese grater technique!). Of course I'm also hoping the oral eventually goes both ways. I'm willing to go first though... not a problem. Any specific things that I should say? This is crazy but my W has very few close friends and none that she talks to about sex I'm sure.
TL2
I'm a guy in a heterosexual marriage. I know it's hard to tell at times with user names. You have to realize there is nothing you can say or do that will make your partner want to give oral, it's something they have to decide on thier own. Marriage counseling helped big time with getting the W to realize that sex is not just about procreation and that it's about intimacy. Right now, the W is comfortable giving oral and at times enjoys it and at times it turns her on. *gasp* I still remember the therapist facial expression when the topic of oral came up. I think the therapist thought I wasn't getting bjs because I wasn't giving it back, and when I told her I love giving it and would give it even if I want receiving any, she instinctively shot my wife the, "girl your nuts" look before she caught herself and returned to the neutral party therapist look. Hoping - Sorry for the confusion. I was looking back on the chain of posts and I got confused because you chimed in to something JMX and workingonit were chatting about. Your profile also didn't say M or F. Thanks for clarifying. Maybe if I "push a little harder" on this topic we could get the oral going at some point. Like you, I am more than willing to lead the way. If that doesn't work maybe a hint of going back to our prior counselor could also help. Or maybe going to a new therapist... specifically a sex therapist? We're not getting any younger.
Thanks for the funny therapist story. Maybe we should see a female therapist / counselor for this issue... it makes sense now that I think about it!
TL2
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Post by hopingforachange on Aug 8, 2018 19:21:36 GMT -5
timeforliving2No worries, I took my gender and age of when I was worried the W would snoop. I would say, a female therapist is exactly what my W needed. There's some things a woman can say to another woman that a man just can't say and still have the same affect.
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