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Post by choosinghappy on Aug 1, 2018 7:25:21 GMT -5
"I dodged that bullet in the nth hour. I think that may have fed into marrying my husband a bit, who is the opposite of him. Like, look what passion did for me." Another similarity with us seekinganswers. My previous boyfriend before I met my H was a fantastic lover and we had amazing sexual chemistry. But that's it. That's where our relationship stopped. My H was pretty much the opposite of him and I found that incredibly attractive. I just should have ALSO focused on the sexual chemistry too... And regarding your comment about being a good mother and how your son is "your world": I get what you mean. I could easily say that about my son too. It doesn't mean I am not also my own person or that I don't let him be his own person but yes, much of what I do is for him: to give him new experiences, teach him things, watch the world through his eyes. I think a lot of parents could say their children are "their world", especially when the kids are still young.
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Post by baza on Aug 1, 2018 7:41:45 GMT -5
Re - examples of members who have "come back from this". Look up timeforliving2 . Thats a credible story from a respected member who's deal has done a 180. Sister tiredoftears has had a resolution too. A look at her stories and her unconventional and adventurous method would be worthwhile. Anonymous Steve is another bloke who lays claim to a turnaround, though the details are somewhat sparse. So they do exist Sister seekinganswers . The sobering fact is that there are 1,210 members here. Those 3 above represent 00.25% of the membership. Or roughly 1 in 403. My recollection is that there are about 6 such claimed turnarounds in this group. I would give long long odds on you making #7.
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Post by shamwow on Aug 1, 2018 8:19:02 GMT -5
I even get a vote, baza ?! Ha. Thank you. Thanks to all for keeping the insights coming, and for the actual words I can use from DryCreek . That really is the nutshell of the situation. I totally understand how this can go on and on for decades. Denial is a crazy thing. And FOG (haven’t heard this term greatcoastal , interesting), for some refusers as well. It's the perfect term because it really does cloud things. I think for that to lift for me, I need to see if there's anything else I can do. I know my attraction problem may be at my core, but I don’t feel like we’ve done all the trying we could do. What we’ve been doing to this point can’t be considered trying. It would start from here with conversation. Maybe it would be for not, as I’ve heard a lot of you say. Part of me does accept that reality. To answer your questions (I’ll try my best to incorporate them all…) I have had strong sexual chemistry with someone before. It was with the person I dated right before getting back together with my husband when we got married (my husband and I dated on and off starting in college). It was a really unhealthy relationship, narcissistic type guy. The highs were really high and the lows really low. It was passionate with a lot of great sex, but he was manipulative and well, an asshole, and I dodged that bullet in the nth hour. I think that may have fed into marrying my husband a bit, who is the opposite of him. Like, look what passion did for me. I started dating my husband at 21, with a couple relationships during the break up periods. I enjoyed sex more so in those relationships, but I can’t say I truly explored my sexuality with them. Reflecting back, I feel like I aimed to please and didn’t put myself out there for my own pleasure as much as I should have. I did with the a-hole, and I was much more playful and open with him. But with my husband, I was much more reserved. I didn’t do the initiating. I’m not sure where my mind was during the time of getting pregnant, probably very excited. I don’t remember that translating to better sex necessarily. It was really fast for us, I think it was only a month or two before I got pregnant. But I feel like more than ever, perhaps because of the deprivation, I’m coming to understand myself as a sexual being. I would love to explore my sexuality more (beyond masturbation, yes). If I do end up divorced, it would likely be a sexual revolution of sorts for me. I want that kind of connection again, not only sexual but romantic, intimate connection as well. I don’t have a great answer as to how I’ve been coping with the impossibility of getting that with my husband. It’s a big pill to swallow. Maybe because we are the king and queen of avoidance. Maybe because that point has existed within a jumble of confusion. But if I can improve things with him, maybe I can still experience some exploration. I know I’d ever have it to a level I could with someone I have more natural sexual chemistry with, but maybe it can get to a point where it’s fulfilling enough for both of us. Sounds unlikely based on the collective experience here. Is there anyone on here who did come back from this? Any threads to share on that? I guess if they’re better, they’re not on here anymore… shamwow, northstarmom - I'm a good mother. Please don't take that away from me on top of it all. I'm aware of what you're saying, I've spent some therapy time on the issue. I'm not worried about it. Not saying you're a bad mom. Not at all. I was just pointing out that many women for whom "the kids are their world" find they have nothing left when their world moves away and starts their own life. It was intended as a cautionary tale only, not judgment on your fitness as a mother. Follow up question: Once your kids are grown and gone, are you chomping at the bit for it to be just you and your guy? Or does that thought fill you with dread?
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 1, 2018 8:34:28 GMT -5
I still find your statement problematic when you say your son is your whole world. Being the center of their mom’s universe is a burden for kids. It’s hard for them to develop a healthy independence. It also may be hard for them to separate their goals and accomplishments from their mom’s . They also may expect the world to revolve around themselves. And if they realize their mom has put her own dreams and desires completely aside for them, compassionate offspring may feel guilty.
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Post by shamwow on Aug 1, 2018 8:41:48 GMT -5
I still find your statement problematic when you say your son is your whole world. Being the center of their mom’s universe is a burden for kids. It’s hard for them to develop a healthy independence. It also may be hard for them to separate their goals and accomplishments from their mom’s . They also may expect the world to revolve around themselves. And if they realize their mom has put her own dreams and desires completely aside for them, compassionate offspring may feel guilty. It is also what our society implicitly demands of women. If your children aren't your whole world you're not a good mother and other such nonsense. My kids are my ex's whole world to the point that the last time we discussed college she was going to follow the youngest. Just yesterday she expressed concern leaving the kids home when she attended classes on a Thursday night. My daughter will be 18 in November and my son is 14. My world revolves around my kids. It also revolves around my lady and around my family and my work (and other interests). In the end she is just using a phrase. But I do agree if the phrase truly reflects reality, it is not good for either the child or the parent.
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Post by workingonit on Aug 1, 2018 8:58:43 GMT -5
I would also wonder baza how many turn arounds are based on rekindling sexual chemistry that used to be there vs developing a sexual connection that was always a bit weak. My non scientific guess is that creating a new attraction after years of marriage is even more rare. I am curious about that actually. How many here started out great but lost the sexual connection vs how many here never really had it. Perhaps an baza poll??
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Post by JMX on Aug 1, 2018 9:36:01 GMT -5
I would also wonder baza how many turn arounds are based on rekindling sexual chemistry that used to be there vs developing a sexual connection that was always a bit weak. My non scientific guess is that creating a new attraction after years of marriage is even more rare. I am curious about that actually. How many here started out great but lost the sexual connection vs how many here never really had it. Perhaps an baza poll?? 🙋♀️. We started off great - and it was about 3-4 years total - 2 with first baby. I will say - red flag - he was not into giving me oral (which I would not stand for again) nor was he very adventurous - which was kind of disconcerting considering a previous relationship that was full of that. Ultimately, I figured that would change, which was dumb - it went the other direction.
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Post by baza on Aug 1, 2018 19:31:23 GMT -5
I would also wonder baza how many turn arounds are based on rekindling sexual chemistry that used to be there vs developing a sexual connection that was always a bit weak. My non scientific guess is that creating a new attraction after years of marriage is even more rare. I am curious about that actually. How many here started out great but lost the sexual connection vs how many here never really had it. Perhaps an baza poll?? That's a good question . I have hitherto been of the opinion that if you once had a robust sexual life with your spouse then you are some hope - miniscule in an ILIASM context - of getting it back. Whereas if it was never there then there is no hope whatsoever. But, the turnarounds are so few, so very few, it hardly seems worth putting a great deal effort of into the subject. If every "turnaround" member here responded to such a poll, then there'd only be a max of 6 votes anyway.
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Post by workingonit on Aug 1, 2018 19:34:54 GMT -5
I would also wonder baza how many turn arounds are based on rekindling sexual chemistry that used to be there vs developing a sexual connection that was always a bit weak. My non scientific guess is that creating a new attraction after years of marriage is even more rare. I am curious about that actually. How many here started out great but lost the sexual connection vs how many here never really had it. Perhaps an baza poll?? That's a good question . I have hitherto been of the opinion that if you once had a robust sexual life with your spouse then you are some hope - miniscule in an ILIASM context - of getting it back. Whereas if it was never there then there is no hope whatsoever. But, the turnarounds are so few, so very few, it hardly seems worth putting a great deal effort of into the subject. If every "turnaround" member here responded to such a poll, then there'd only be a max of 6 votes anyway. Good point
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Post by workingonit on Aug 1, 2018 19:40:16 GMT -5
"I dodged that bullet in the nth hour. I think that may have fed into marrying my husband a bit, who is the opposite of him. Like, look what passion did for me." Another similarity with us seekinganswers . My previous boyfriend before I met my H was a fantastic lover and we had amazing sexual chemistry. But that's it. That's where our relationship stopped. My H was pretty much the opposite of him and I found that incredibly attractive. I just should have ALSO focused on the sexual chemistry too... And regarding your comment about being a good mother and how your son is "your world": I get what you mean. I could easily say that about my son too. It doesn't mean I am not also my own person or that I don't let him be his own person but yes, much of what I do is for him: to give him new experiences, teach him things, watch the world through his eyes. I think a lot of parents could say their children are "their world", especially when the kids are still young. I share this in common with you ladies as well. Before my h I had a really tempestuous, passionate, crazy relationship that was....unhealthy (but awesome at the same time). Anyway, he ended up going to prison and I ended up changing my life- got into religion as a direct consequence of searching for meaning on the exit from that insanity (although, of course, there was more to it than that). My husband was and remains the opposite in every way and our relationship is the opposite as well. I found the lack of drama and my husband's logic and honesty so refreshing. I will go so far as to say it seemed more mature to make a decision about a partner with my head and not my lady bits. Hindsight is 20/20
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Post by baza on Aug 1, 2018 21:08:42 GMT -5
This is seen in members stories here a lot.
Member was in a relationship which got way too "lively" and volatile.
Member got out of the highly adventurous relationship.
Member then got into a new relationship that was not too lively, volatile or adventurous.
This relationship had 'calmness' going for it (a welcome relief after the hi-jinks in the previous deal) This relationship turned out to have very little else going for it other than being low conflict.
Member starts googling 'sexless marriage'.
Member lands here.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 1, 2018 23:55:51 GMT -5
Re - examples of members who have "come back from this". Look up timeforliving2 . Thats a credible story from a respected member who's deal has done a 180. ***** seekinganswers - As baza mentioned, please do look through my posts from the last 2 weeks especially... You will get a sense of my turnaround. It can happen. I can relate to your story... my W and I were in a nearly 20 year SM and we turned it around (rare but true). I honestly started going to counseling as a "formality"... I was *sure* we were going to separate but I wanted to at least be able to tell people "I tried" before actually separating. I felt emotionally distant from my W especially during that 2nd decade of our marriage... there was a point where we only had sex once in 4 years. And she felt emotionally distant from me as well, which she said was the main reason she didn't feel like having sex with me. I understand where you are coming from.
The key question you have to ask yourself is: Do you want to give this one last shot, perhaps taking a somewhat different approach? I know you are currently in counseling (both joint and individual), but I get the sense that there are no time limits on that and no sense of urgency for getting this resolved. Being realistic for a minute: Does your counselor have a vested financial interest in your counseling continuing for a long time? Sure, they all do. I am not saying that your counselor is not helping, but perhaps he or she is not the best one for the two of you for whatever reason. Or he/she doesn't bring a sense of urgency to your sessions as well. You've been in counseling for more than a year already with apparently no significant improvement. Think about potentially changing counselors as you go forward.
Another question to think about: If you had cancer, would you do anything different in the way you live your life? Of course you would. There would be a sense of urgency to getting it fixed / cured, and you'd seek the best treatment, seek the best medical professionals, learn something more about it every day, and keep trying despite bad days you'd inevitably have. Segue: You and your H currently have *marriage cancer* (a sexless marriage, lacking intimacy). You need to treat it with as much urgency, and give it one last shot. And put a time limit on it.
Before going to your next counseling session, have the courage to watch this video (link below) by Amanda Palmer... and watch it again with your H. You mentioned that the two of you don't seem to communicate well about how you're feeling and also about sex. This video will probably resonate well with you, as it did with me. Watching this video together just after we started counseling helped my W and I realize the urgency, realize we had an emotionally dead marriage, and definitely helped with our turnaround. This video... plus many more things.
Also, if you give this one last shot, I highly recommend reading this set of books by Shaunti and Jeff Feldhahn: (1) For Women Only, and (2) For Men Only. Read and discuss them together with your H outside of counseling (e.g. You read Chapter 1 from the For Women book, and your H read Chapter 1 from the For Men book, then discuss together, etc.). There is at least one chapter in each of the books that talks about sex, and I swear I was blown away when I read the chapter about sex from a man's perspective... someone had finally put my same kind of thoughts *in print*. (Each of those chapters in the books so *accurately* describe when men and women typically think and feel about sex). The books talk about many other aspects of the marriage relationship too.
Not all marriages can ultimately be saved. But if you can get the fun and emotional intimacy back the way it was early in your relationship before you had your son, and you could get the sex back, would you stay? The reality is that if your marriage is going to be saved... you both will have to make some changes to what you are currently doing. You have a downward spiral going on. You are not giving H what he needs, and H is not giving you what you need. It is possible to create an upward spiral in your marriage again: You giving H what he needs, and H giving you what you need. It takes a better understanding of your situation and each other, a bit of humility realizing that neither of you is perfect, a willingness to try something different, and often the help of an outside counselor.
Re: your current outside counselor, you can create a sense of urgency with the counselor in a few different ways. One way would be to be straightforward with the counselor and tell him/her that you have decided that you are going to give this one last shot, and have set a limit of a period of time (e.g. 6 months?, 9 months? 1 year?) where you are going to try to resolve the issues / create a better marriage, otherwise you are going to separate. If you separate, neither of you will continue to see the counselor again because the effort will have failed. Additionally, if you do not see significant improvement in your marriage in a certain period of time (e.g. the next 2 months?) you will be looking for a new counselor who can help you better. You have decided you have no more time to waste. (NOTE: Now the counselor has an urgency to try to help you... successfully. You are establishing more control over the situation and are holding them to a higher standard of what you expect to happen).
Hope this helps!
TL2
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 2, 2018 0:42:21 GMT -5
Wow, thank you all so much for your insight and advice. I hear you. I HAVE to start talking more and not hold back, "suck it up, muster up all your courage, and get the ball rolling" as nyartgal said. ( nyartgal I do have more intimacy with my dental hygienist! ****** I still wonder if there's something I can do to be more attracted to my husband though. I know a lot of you are saying, fat chance. Maybe the conversations will bring a level of intimacy that leads to something. Who knows. I don't think we'll ever get to a point where sex is mind blowing, but maybe there's a point where we have enough intimacy to keep us fulfilled. shamwow - *** I agree that "love ain't a duty", completely. *** a woman no longer has to feel that she has to let anyone touch her body that she doesn't want to, even as a wife. Do you not agree? Thank you all so much. Truly. seekinganswers - I'm just catching up on your thread and posted my first response a little while ago. I just quoted / highlighted 3 comments above that you made that resonated with me. My responses to your 3 comments are as follows:
1. Yes, you both have to start talking more openly with each other about any major issue you have with your marriage... sex and anything else. Without this open communication and mutual desire to resolve the issues, your marriage will ultimately fail or you will live a *lifetime* of resentment, if those issues are big enough for either one of you.
2. My marriage has had a turnaround, but as I have openly said recently, our sex is not mind blowing either. But it is good enough to keep us in "reasonable sex" land.
3. FWIW - If you understand / have read the Five Love Languages book, my primary love language is physical touch, and my wife's is "quality time" (other than sex!). Similar to what you have mentioned above about not letting your H touch you... my wife used to do the same... for nearly 20 years. Always pushing my hands away from all parts of her body unless I was giving her a normal hug. I've got to honestly say that nearly killed me... every time she pushed my hands away I felt so rejected. She was rejecting my primary love language. To a large extent it is simply how I was wired and I cannot change it. If you are in a marriage, you simply cannot refuse physical intimacy (sex and other) and realistically expect your marriage will last. There are times where you each need to submit and acquiesce, a la Fifty Shades or otherwise. I highly recommend that you both read the Five Love Languages book too if you haven't already.
(BTW - If you assume that I tried to simply touch my W in some more intimate way just once a day on average... over a 10-year period that's 3,650 rejections, and over a 20 year period that's 7,300 rejections. I think being handsy once a day for a few seconds in an effort to show love for a spouse is totally reasonable. However, I probably never was rejected 7,300 times... because with each rejection a little piece of of you dies inside, depression sets in, and you begin to lose more and more hope and don't want to try to make your marriage work anymore. Being rejected even 100 times or 1,000 times is simply too much to bear and one just gives up after they reach their own breaking point.)
Finally, if you are a "recovering refuser", you need to understand this point / perspective: If you are regularly refusing sex to your spouse, you are actually "the cheater". You are cheating the opportunity for intimacy out of your marriage relationship (your spouse has no other *ethical* alternative to satisfying a biological *need*). I know that may be hard for you to hear and accept, but it is true. I only say it "straight up" because you need to understand how serious this is. I didn't fully understand it either until I was a completely broken person and had read a lot on the predecessor website to this one. I think whatever the other spouse does in response to a cheater is their choice. Even though my marriage turned around 4 1/2 years ago, I will still never be the same person again. My thoughts and beliefs on marriage have forever changed. And I almost pursued an affair opportunity prior to our turnaround. If I had done so, I would have been completely justified because my refuser had "cheated" first. No one enters marriage with an expectation or desire for a sexless marriage.
I truly wish you the best. I get the sense that you do want to make an effort to change certain things. Hopefully your H is willing to change some things too.
TL2
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 2, 2018 6:22:44 GMT -5
“f you are in a marriage, you simply cannot refuse physical intimacy (sex and other) and realistically expect it will last. “
Not true. It can last. Most marriages of those who end up here don’t end. That’’s because neither spouse has the guts to end it. Both wouldf rather live as companions, acquaintances, people who even loathe each other than to risk ending it and making themselves available for the committed, loving, respectful., relationship that they are hoping for now. Many will go to their graves longing for that after spending their final years caring for a disabled or ill spouse or having a spouse they are averse to taking care of them as they age or get disabled. I saw my mom, who was in a sm, have to spend years taking care of my dad who was incontinent, mute , and partly paralyzed after strokes. When he died, she was bitter and in her eArly seventies and spent the next decade praying to die in her sleep. Not wanting to end up like that helped me leave my sm.
Some variation of that will be your fate if the lack of intimacy (and no conflicd reflects a lack of intimacy) continues. Your marriage is empty.
The advice is wise to react with the urgency of addressing cancer. It may be that your h avoids joining you in the fight: he may refuse to speak up or simply placate or utter platitudes.. That will be your sign that there is no hope and the only hope for the romantic life you want will would be to release yourself from a marriage of polite acquaintances.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Aug 2, 2018 9:39:53 GMT -5
“if you are in a marriage, you simply cannot refuse physical intimacy (sex and other) and realistically expect it will last. “ Not true. It can last. Most marriages of those who end up here don’t end. That’’s because neither spouse has the guts to end it. Both some of rsther live as companions, acquaintances, people who even loathe each other than to risk ending it and making themselves available for the committed, loving, respectful., relationship that you are hoping for now. Many will go to their graves longing for that after spending their final years caring for a disabled or ill spouse or having a spouse they are averse to taking care of them as they age or get disabled. I saw my mom, who was in a sm, have to spend years taking care of my I dad who was incontinent, mute l, and partly paralyzed after strokes. When he died, she was bitter and in her eArly seventies and spent the next decade praying to die in her sleep. Not wanting to end up like that helped me leave my sm. Some variation of that will be your fate if the lack of intimacy (and no conflicd reflects a lack of intimacy) continues. Your marriage is empty. The advice is wise to react with the urgency of addressing cancer. It may be that your h avoids joining you in the fight: he may refuse to speak up or simply placate or utter platitudes.. That will be your sign that there is no hope and the only hope for the romantic life you want il would be to release yourself from a marriage of police td acquaintance. I think I originally posted something like that last night but later revised it to say that either it won't last or you'll have a lifetime of resentment in the marriage. We're on the same page. Either it won't last or there's a hell of a lot of resentment.
TL2
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