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Post by DryCreek on Jul 30, 2018 23:22:23 GMT -5
seekinganswers, if there's any good that comes out this agonizing experience, it's that it drives many of us to do a metric butt-ton of introspection, study our own motivations, and work to overcome personal shortcomings. Also known as "How repulsive must I be, that my spouse won't touch me?" That you recognize your behavior is a first step - ignoring problems isn't healthy, regardless of the context. Changing bad behavior is the next step, and a critical one. You need to start having those hard conversations at home, in real-time. Dragging issues into the light and driving them to resolution is an important universal life skill, whether you're the one being wronged, or you realize you aren't meeting someone else's expectations. It's awkward and painful, but it stops the festering so the healing can begin. And no, the solutions aren't always rosey; sometimes they're very inconvenient. Sometimes the fix is just resetting expectations that both sides can agree on; other times, it's agreeing that you can't find common ground. Your H deserves an honest conversation, where you share your perspective and he can walk away fully informed. In return, he owes you that same transparency, and also needs to be honest with himself - that's likely to take more than one conversation so he has time to consider what you've shared. One of the harder decisions will require him to be honest with himself... no matter how badly he might want it to work, can he really live with the compromises? (Related to this, denying the obvious / keeping your spouse in the dark about your true feelings is perhaps the most destructive of "kind lies", because it deprives them of a full life in the name of "protecting them" from short-term pain. Many of us have wasted precious decades trying to win the desire of someone who couldn't muster the guts to say "I'm just not into you".)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2018 1:44:24 GMT -5
Just jumping in to applaud your courage in posting. We are here to help not to criticize you. Although sometimes our direct line of questioning may feel like criticism. Take what resonates and leave the rest. I admire your introspection and willingness to be accountable. Most of us do not have that in a partner, and that reflects well on you as you try to solve this issue.
The point I most want to make though is this one: I do think feminism has done marriage a disservice by giving women 100% entitlement to deny their husbands sex. I personally don’t think that women should say no to otherwise loving husbands nor should husbands say no to otherwise loving wives. Marriage is for sex, that’s kinda the whole point of it (in my sex-deprived opinion anyway). And once the sex disappears, the marriage isn’t far behind.
Sure, your body is your own and you have rights to it and autonomy over it. However, I am not sure those rights extend into marriage. So long as a husband is keeping up his end of the vows (love, cherish, etc.), I think it is a woman’s duty to allow him to “have and hold” her. Yes, that part of the vow means sex!
I can tell you, once I’m out of my SM and with a loving partner, he won’t hear no from me except under extreme conditions such as illness. Why would I deny my man the opportunity to connect with me? Trust me, after living without for so long, I’ll be flattered by such an attempt to connect.
Just my 2 cents. Take it or leave it!
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Post by beachguy on Jul 31, 2018 3:31:40 GMT -5
I agree that "love ain't a duty", completely. It was my point actually. I wasn't associating my lack of desire for my husband with feminism. I was associating that part of "a cause that has done women a great deal of good over the past 100 years" includes that a woman no longer has to feel that she has to let anyone touch her body that she doesn't want to, even as a wife. Do you not agree? To the people who liked his post, do you not agree?Well, if you insist... you want full body autonomy, you got it. But then you MUST give your husband the same body autonomy. And that includes getting his sexual needs met, however, wherever and with whomever he wants. Do you not agree?
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 31, 2018 4:50:13 GMT -5
“ I was associating that part of "a cause that has done women a great deal of good over the past 100 years" includes that a woman no longer has to feel that she has to let anyone touch her body that she doesn't want tdo”
The beauty of feminism is also that it’s fine for women to divorce or choose not to marry.
If you really can’t stand for your husband to touch you intimately since he wants sexual intimacy with you, you are sexually incompatible. If you could will yourself into sexual intimacy, presumably you would have done so not to have selfishly allowed him to suffer.
I also assume that you fund your husband so sexually repellant that you can’t bring yourself to give him blow jobs or hand jobs.
Hookers manage tp fuck men they don't like, aremt attracted to and even may be the gender they are sexually attracted to but you can’t bring yourself to be sexually intimate with the man whom you consider a good friend, father, and husband and whom you married, vowing to have and to hold.
Time to realize your sexual revulsion toward your h is deep seated and unchangeable. Time to do both of you a favor and end the sham marriage while continuing supportively co-parenting. Since you clearly spelled things out here, you can choose to tell your husband even if you have to do it in writing.
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Post by snowman12345 on Jul 31, 2018 5:13:42 GMT -5
Cheating by either one of you or both is on the horizon. After 30 some years of marriage I never thought I would be "that guy" - the one cheating on his spouse. Like the man said, "If you don't pet the dog once in a while; it's hard to keep him on the porch". Marriage vows - "forsaking all others" - meaning you will only give yourself to him, but then you tell him he can't have it. What kind of bullshit is that?
Yeah have "the Talk" with him. You may be in for a surprise as to what his feelings are - if you are actually willing to listen to him. I have a feeling you will be too involved in your own emotions to do that.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 31, 2018 5:49:41 GMT -5
For some reading this thread to figure out what’s going on in your refuser’s mind, what the op wrote here may answer your question of why sex ended after your child was conceived.
“He's kind, hardworking, and a great father. I think I was so driven by the idea of having children (I got married at 30 and was feeling very ready for children at that point), that I wasn't seeing that part (the romantic/sexual part) of our relationship clearly. This is my first fuck up. I was definitely aware, but I was not understanding the importance.”
The answer is that your spouse thought you were a nice person who’d be a caring, reliable, and acceptable spouse, parent, companion, and good provider. Your spouse was never particularly sexually attracted to you but figured sex was not an important thing to factor in when choosing a spouse and future parent to their kids. Once the child was conceived, there was no more reason to bother with sex with a partner whom they weren’t attracted to nor sexually fulfilled by. Your spouse has sexual feelings -- but not for you -- but doesn’t tell you for fear of hurting you and of ending a marriage that they aren’t willing to give up.
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Post by baza on Jul 31, 2018 6:18:48 GMT -5
I've said before that a whole heap of learning in this group is done vicariously. That is to say, by reading others stories and then applying it to your own situation. Classis example above with northstarmom 's take on the OP's story and translating it into what might be in *your* refusers head.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jul 31, 2018 6:46:02 GMT -5
For some reading this thread to figure out what’s going on in your refuser’s mind, what the op wrote here may answer your question of why sex ended after your child was conceived. “He's kind, hardworking, and a great father. I think I was so driven by the idea of having children (I got married at 30 and was feeling very ready for children at that point), that I wasn't seeing that part (the romantic/sexual part) of our relationship clearly. This is my first fuck up. I was definitely aware, but I was not understanding the importance.” The answer is that your spouse thought you were a nice person who’d be a caring, reliable, and acceptable spouse, parent, companion, and good provider. Your spouse was never particularly sexually attracted to you but figured sex was not an important thing to factor in when choosing a spouse and future parent to their kids. Once the child was conceived there was no more reason to bother with sex with a partner whom they weren’t attracted to nor sexually fulfilled by. Your spouse has sexual feelings but not for you but doesn’t tell you for fear of hurting you and of ending s marriage that they aren’t willing to give up. I'd just like to be the one to add on to this: I thought my spouse was a nice person who'd be a caring, reliable, and acceptable spouse, parent, companion, and good provider. My spouse was never particularly sexually attracted to me but figures sex was not an important thing to factor in when choosing a spouse and future parent to the kids. Once the last child was conceived there was no more reason to bother with sex- "My spouse did not see the need for it, could easily live without it, it was not important to them at all, it no longer mattered to them at all! In THEIR LIFE". Not what mattered in the marriage. My now ex spouse is either greysexual (able to have sex in order to lure a man/woman and /or procreate , and then never want or need sex again) and is a narcissist who will always need to hide her fears by being a manipulative controller. A very dishonest person who should not be trusted, but can portray a very fake image of being trustworthy. Someone who will not ,and can not be honest and communicate in a marriage. Their lack of any sexual needs should not be trusted. They will continue in their ways to the next person /victim who is in their life and will lead another down this same destructive path. So it has nothing to do with the fact that "they just didn't have sexual feelings for YOU".
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Post by hopingforachange on Jul 31, 2018 7:52:07 GMT -5
Are you my wife?
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 31, 2018 7:52:38 GMT -5
GC, the op isn’t like your wife in that she admits to strong sexual feelings but not for her h. She sounds like the refusers whose spouses find them masturbating.
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Post by h on Jul 31, 2018 7:57:22 GMT -5
Wow, thank you all so much for your insight and advice. I hear you. I HAVE to start talking more and not hold back, "suck it up, muster up all your courage, and get the ball rolling" as nyartgal said. ( nyartgal I do have more intimacy with my dental hygienist! That made me laugh.) @workingonit, this struck a chord: "being authentic and real with him is ultimately less hurtful then 'sparing' him for a few more years." As did your comment about kids picking up on more than you think. So true. Confirmed by beachguy , which totally made me tear up. I could personally never have an open marriage, but I can see an amiable divorce that puts my son’s needs first. I still wonder if there's something I can do to be more attracted to my husband though. I know a lot of you are saying, fat chance. Maybe the conversations will bring a level of intimacy that leads to something. Who knows. I don't think we'll ever get to a point where sex is mind blowing, but maybe there's a point where we have enough intimacy to keep us fulfilled. He's traveling these next few days, but I'll talk to him when he gets back and start there. bballgirl - I'm so glad you mentioned that book, Mating in Captivity. I heard about it awhile back and it sounded interesting, but I haven't read it yet. It will be the next book I read. shamwow - without this turning into a post about feminism, it was an interesting challenge you presented. I think we agree more than we disagree. I agree that "love ain't a duty", completely. It was my point actually. I wasn't associating my lack of desire for my husband with feminism. I was associating that part of "a cause that has done women a great deal of good over the past 100 years" includes that a woman no longer has to feel that she has to let anyone touch her body that she doesn't want to, even as a wife. Do you not agree? To the people who liked his post, do you not agree? At any rate, if you don't consider that an aspect of feminism, then perhaps it's at least an off shoot, or empowerment stemming from feminism. I imagine you can see the connection. I do think it's a bit of stretch to say I entered the marriage dishonestly though. I think we all wish we could have known then what we know now. Thank you all so much. Truly. You can be a feminist all you want, but marriage is a sexual relationship. You chose to marry him and with that choice, you agreed to have sex with him. Marriage is accepting responsibility for meeting your spouse's needs. If sex wasn't high on your priority list, you shouldn't have married him in the first place. At the very least, you should have told him before you got married that you didn't feel attracted to him and let him decide if that was a deal breaker. He may not have married you knowing that you didn't desire him. I don't want to seem harsh because I respect your courage in posting in a potentially hostile forum. I'm seeing this from the other side. My W and I have been married for 10 years and nearly celibate the entire time. She has never had much interest in sex, turned me down on our wedding night and avoided me for almost all of our honeymoon. We're trying to work things out and making some progress but only after I gave her the ultimatum of sexlife or divorce. She's choosing to try. If I had known that she wasn't interested in sex from the beginning, we could have stayed friends and not gotten married. We didn't have to waste a decade of our lives being miserable. My W never gave me that choice back then. You never gave your H that choice either and here we both are.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jul 31, 2018 8:10:04 GMT -5
GC, the op isn’t like your wife in that she admits to string sexual feelings but not for her h. She sounds like the refusers whose spouses find them masturbating. Here is where we part ways. She sounds like she doesn't even know what strong sexual feelings are, but she sure knew how to lure a man, procreate, and fill her needs only. (That of wanting to be a mother not a wife, and putting family before marriage) She may also masturbate (as I found my ex doing occasionally) and be fantasizing over women or another man, but that still doesn't mean she is going to have a meaningful sexual desire for someone else, ever. Thoughts are one thing, actions are another.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 31, 2018 8:13:13 GMT -5
Wow, thank you all so much for your insight and advice. I hear you. I HAVE to start talking more and not hold back, "suck it up, muster up all your courage, and get the ball rolling" as nyartgal said. ( nyartgal I do have more intimacy with my dental hygienist! That made me laugh.) @workingonit, this struck a chord: "being authentic and real with him is ultimately less hurtful then 'sparing' him for a few more years." As did your comment about kids picking up on more than you think. So true. Confirmed by beachguy , which totally made me tear up. I could personally never have an open marriage, but I can see an amiable divorce that puts my son’s needs first. I still wonder if there's something I can do to be more attracted to my husband though. I know a lot of you are saying, fat chance. Maybe the conversations will bring a level of intimacy that leads to something. Who knows. I don't think we'll ever get to a point where sex is mind blowing, but maybe there's a point where we have enough intimacy to keep us fulfilled. He's traveling these next few days, but I'll talk to him when he gets back and start there. bballgirl - I'm so glad you mentioned that book, Mating in Captivity. I heard about it awhile back and it sounded interesting, but I haven't read it yet. It will be the next book I read. shamwow - without this turning into a post about feminism, it was an interesting challenge you presented. I think we agree more than we disagree. I agree that "love ain't a duty", completely. It was my point actually. I wasn't associating my lack of desire for my husband with feminism. I was associating that part of "a cause that has done women a great deal of good over the past 100 years" includes that a woman no longer has to feel that she has to let anyone touch her body that she doesn't want to, even as a wife. Do you not agree? To the people who liked his post, do you not agree? At any rate, if you don't consider that an aspect of feminism, then perhaps it's at least an off shoot, or empowerment stemming from feminism. I imagine you can see the connection. I do think it's a bit of stretch to say I entered the marriage dishonestly though. I think we all wish we could have known then what we know now. Thank you all so much. Truly. You can be a feminist all you want, but marriage is a sexual relationship. You chose to marry him and with that choice, you agreed to have sex with him. Marriage is accepting responsibility for meeting your spouse's needs. If sex wasn't high on your priority list, you shouldn't have married him in the first place. At the very least, you should have told him before you got married that you didn't feel attracted to him and let him decide if that was a deal breaker. He may not have married you knowing that you didn't desire him. I don't want to seem harsh because I respect your courage in posting in a potentially hostile forum. I'm seeing this from the other side. My W and I have been married for 10 years and nearly celibate the entire time. She has never had much interest in sex, turned me down on our wedding night and avoided me for almost all of our honeymoon. We're trying to work things out and making some progress but only after I gave her the ultimatum of sexlife or divorce. She's choosing to try. If I had known that she wasn't interested in sex from the beginning, we could have stayed friends and not gotten married. We didn't have to waste a decade of our lives being miserable. My W never gave me that choice back then. You never gave your H that choice either and here we both are. h, I'm glad you weighed in on this thread. In your own thread I tried to convince you of the hopelessness of your situation. But you are still smoking Hopium. And then this post comes along. Virtually indistinguishable from your story. You have as much chance of making things work as this OP's husband has of making things work. And this is true of almost everyone here. Perhaps everyone here who is stil trying and hasn't left yet.
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 31, 2018 8:15:00 GMT -5
seekinganswers, I want to echo and pile onto @elle’s thoughts on feminism with a crude metaphor... I have a job that I like. Both sides of that relationship have expectations, and when one starts to slack there will be consequences. Nobody’s forcing me to be there - it’s not slavery, after all. I have freedom and autonomy. I chose the relationship, having a reasonable idea of the expectations. It’s not always glamorous; some days are pretty hard. I could get away with a bad hair day occasionally, but in the bigger picture I realize that for the relationship to thrive, I’m going to show up even on the days I’m not so excited to, and I’m not going to be bitter about it. Because I value the relationship and its beneffits, and I want it to continue. It’s obvious to folks that you can’t neglect your job, and that - while nobody’s forcing you to participate - a role has many parts and all of them are essential. A marriage is no different; it’s a package deal, not an á la carte offering.
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Post by workingonit on Jul 31, 2018 8:17:14 GMT -5
I really want this to be so!! Would be a really interesting experiment. 😂
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