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Post by hopingforachange on Aug 24, 2018 2:07:05 GMT -5
As some one that is still working thru the, maybe things have turned around camp, as a word of warning, there will be hiccups and landmines along the way and setbacks. Those setbacks have felt far worse then any other periods in my SM.
I thinking of the turn around as a trama healing would be a close example. When the skin is new it is sensitive and any impact will hurt far worse then normal skin or hardened scars
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Post by choosinghappy on Aug 24, 2018 3:42:17 GMT -5
Hard to “like” that post hopingforachange but very good point. @shynjdude: When reading your last couple updates I also came to the conclusion that it seems to come down to whether or not she truly respects you. That “loathesome” person she described is NOT you. Yes, there are items you’ve been working on over the last year+ but just because some items may hold some truth does not mean they all do. YOU get to decide who you are and what type of person you are, not her. And if you find over the coming months that she still seems to think of you as someone you know you are not you do not have to just accept that. I do think that it will take some time to gauge what she truly thinks (she may not even be entirely sure yet!) but hopefully it will be revealed through her actions and words over time without you having to specifically ask in a confrontational way. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 5:14:39 GMT -5
Great to hear you are still having a turnaround @shynjdude ! Beware of the good feelings making everything else seem much better than they are. It's so easy to fall into. But I hope that's not the case for you. That's exactly what I'm trying not to do. On the other hand, I need to be "all-in" in my actions because a real turnaround will require effort - not just in honest communication but also to build a new relationship with fun and meaning. I hope I'm not under any illusions but I also know there is no way I am going back to becoming the person I was a year ago and feeling the way I used to. |
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Post by shamwow on Aug 24, 2018 6:25:33 GMT -5
northstarmom, if she told me that her opinion of me on all 30+ items changed, i wouldn't believe that either. I can understand her trying to avoid answering so as not to lie. But I will need to know whether she can ever respect me. That's the key. The person she described was so loathesome that I need to know how she can square that circle. So I have to ask in a way that is not confrontational and not meant to corner her but where I can believe the answer. You will have a good idea of it the next time you two have a big fight. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 7:21:10 GMT -5
Hard to “like” that post hopingforachange but very good point. @shynjdude : When reading your last couple updates I also came to the conclusion that it seems to come down to whether or not she truly respects you. That “loathesome” person she described is NOT you. Yes, there are items you’ve been working on over the last year+ but just because some items may hold some truth does not mean they all do. YOU get to decide who you are and what type of person you are, not her. And if you find over the coming months that she still seems to think of you as someone you know you are not you do not have to just accept that. I do think that it will take some time to gauge what she truly thinks (she may not even be entirely sure yet!) but hopefully it will be revealed through her actions and words over time without you having to specifically ask in a confrontational way. Thanks hopingforachange and choosinghappy. There was an incident a week ago that fits in with this. While in bed, my wife made a joke that touched on one of her (false) accusations against me, in this case that I don't really care about her. I got very upset - while I am embracing her in bed she accuses me of not caring??? Even if it was said in a joking way and without thinking, I felt that this indicated that she still thinks of me negatively. I immediately said that her statement hurt me and I became agitated. In the past, she would have gotten defensive and blamed me for making her feel bad, that it was only a joke, etc. And she did try to say I took her words out of context (although she couldn't tell me what the proper context was.) However, this was the first time that she really empathized with my pain, truly tried to understand why I was so hurt and she was very distraught that she hurt me. That is a sea change from Wife 1.0. I'm not expecting her to change her opinion of me by 180 degrees overnight. That would feel fake. What she says she is trying to do is to recognize the far more numerous positive things about me and not concentrate on the negative. I have to say, this effort seems to be fruitful - she is thanking me profusely for things I have always done for her routinely no matter how bad things were. But as I wrote, I need to find out more precisely what she thinks of me deep down. I won't be confrontational about it but if something is bothering me I will ask her directly but lovingly. Guessing how the other one feels is one of the problems we have had in communication, and we are SO different that misjudging is the rule, not the exception. If this marriage is going to work, the honest communication (and stopping holding stuff inside) will be key. It is something I was uncomfortable with before but right now it cannot be otherwise, and I have not once regretted telling Wife 2.0 honestly how I feel. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 7:39:28 GMT -5
You will have a good idea of it the next time you two have a big fight. In a weird way, I'm looking forward to it. |
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 24, 2018 7:47:47 GMT -5
I think that the elephant in the room is the paper that you found in which your wife listed the things she found loathsome about you.
The only way to figure out whether she believes those things is to be direct by telling her you accidentally found the list, we very hurt to read it, and are wondering what her thoughts are now about each item in the list.
How she responds will guide you about where your marriage is heading.
Keep in mind that the list may or may not represent her true feelings about you. It may have been done when she was white hot angry at you. It could have been done in response to a relationship exercise in which one exaggerates one’s mate’s negative qualities. Or it could be what she has long felt and still feels.
Being authentic and honest also means you directly talk with her about things troubling you. Then let the chips fall where they will.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 7:54:11 GMT -5
northstarmom, I have talked with her about it and she gave me an explanation of why she wrote it, at a friend's urging two years ago, to talk through each item and see if they were valid. What I haven't had the opportunity to ask yet is whether she still thinks this way for each item specifically. I will do that. But not for a couple of weeks. Wife is still away and our long drive back will not be the best time to bring it up. That trip is going to be revealing in and of itself.
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 24, 2018 8:18:39 GMT -5
Waiting until after her trip sounds like a good plan.
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Post by shamwow on Aug 24, 2018 8:20:14 GMT -5
Hard to “like” that post hopingforachange but very good point. @shynjdude : When reading your last couple updates I also came to the conclusion that it seems to come down to whether or not she truly respects you. That “loathesome” person she described is NOT you. Yes, there are items you’ve been working on over the last year+ but just because some items may hold some truth does not mean they all do. YOU get to decide who you are and what type of person you are, not her. And if you find over the coming months that she still seems to think of you as someone you know you are not you do not have to just accept that. I do think that it will take some time to gauge what she truly thinks (she may not even be entirely sure yet!) but hopefully it will be revealed through her actions and words over time without you having to specifically ask in a confrontational way. Thanks hopingforachange and choosinghappy. There was an incident a week ago that fits in with this. While in bed, my wife made a joke that touched on one of her (false) accusations against me, in this case that I don't really care about her. I got very upset - while I am embracing her in bed she accuses me of not caring??? Even if it was said in a joking way and without thinking, I felt that this indicated that she still thinks of me negatively. I immediately said that her statement hurt me and I became agitated. In the past, she would have gotten defensive and blamed me for making her feel bad, that it was only a joke, etc. And she did try to say I took her words out of context (although she couldn't tell me what the proper context was.) However, this was the first time that she really empathized with my pain, truly tried to understand why I was so hurt and she was very distraught that she hurt me. That is a sea change from Wife 1.0. I'm not expecting her to change her opinion of me by 180 degrees overnight. That would feel fake. What she says she is trying to do is to recognize the far more numerous positive things about me and not concentrate on the negative. I have to say, this effort seems to be fruitful - she is thanking me profusely for things I have always done for her routinely no matter how bad things were. But as I wrote, I need to find out more precisely what she thinks of me deep down. I won't be confrontational about it but if something is bothering me I will ask her directly but lovingly. Guessing how the other one feels is one of the problems we have had in communication, and we are SO different that misjudging is the rule, not the exception. If this marriage is going to work, the honest communication (and stopping holding stuff inside) will be key. It is something I was uncomfortable with before but right now it cannot be otherwise, and I have not once regretted telling Wife 2.0 honestly how I feel. Honest communication also means she is going to explode at you at some point. Sure as shit she is holding in a nuclear bomb worth of stuff about the outsourcing. When she does you are going to have to let her explode (perhaps over and over) until she gets it out (if ever). Right now she may still be afraid to let those feelings out since you've told her you're at the divorce level snapping point. She is likely walking on eggshells trying not to tip you over the edge. So she's super super nice. She's kind. She's understanding. She's apologetic about making you feel horrible. It's great for you. It also doesn't sound like her true self. Wife 2.0 is the same person as wife 1.0 but is doing what she has to avoid becoming ex wife 1.0. But, brother, I guarantee that storm is inside her and will likely rage as soon as she thinks you've backed sufficiently away from the edge. When she does you will have to accept that you are reaping the whirlwind you've created in addition to her returning to form. This shit is complicated. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 8:43:03 GMT -5
Honest communication also means she is going to explode at you at some point. Sure as shit she is holding in a nuclear bomb worth of stuff about the outsourcing. When she does you are going to have to let her explode (perhaps over and over) until she gets it out (if ever). Right now she may still be afraid to let those feelings out since you've told her you're at the divorce level snapping point. She is likely walking on eggshells trying not to tip you over the edge. So she's super super nice. She's kind. She's understanding. She's apologetic about making you feel horrible. It's great for you. But, brother, I guarantee that storm is inside her and will likely rage as soon as she thinks you've backed sufficiently away from the edge. When she does you will have to accept that you are somewhat reaping the whirlwind you've created in addition to her returning to form. This shit is complicated. That is possible. So far she SEEMS to have had an honest reaction about the outsourcing - again, she asked me about it when she already knew, and I was honest (when she asked me the fourth time). She has not tried to hide her hurt but on the other hand she has said that she understands that I must have been in a very bad place to have considered that, and she has SEEMED to take responsibility for her part of it without letting me off the hook. And I take full responsibility for what I did. (I told her about both APs as well as an emotional affair online I had previously.) In retrospect, she was more upset that I continued to chat with my AP (since I was assuming divorce anyway) than she was over the affair itself. When I ended that - which killed me but it was the right thing to do, dammit - she was surprised but appreciative. She's tried to use it against me in the sense that she claims that she had the opportunity for affairs as well and she said no, claiming moral high ground. I refuse to take that bait, and told her that she could have had sex any time she wanted with me and she knew it - her lack of sex was because she was the refuser, not me. So it APPEARS that she is not papering this over, but you may be right. Time will tell. Right now, in a weird way, we have even joked about it without her getting angry - she jokingly told me once "You think you are such a stud" and I responded that I can't say what I'm thinking because it might hurt her, she asked me to say it anyway, and I said "Well, I did have women worldwide who wanted me." She thought it was funny, or pretended to, and said, "Only two countries." |
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Post by choosinghappy on Aug 24, 2018 9:02:14 GMT -5
Honest communication also means she is going to explode at you at some point. Sure as shit she is holding in a nuclear bomb worth of stuff about the outsourcing. ... But, brother, I guarantee that storm is inside her and will likely rage as soon as she thinks you've backed sufficiently away from the edge. When she does you will have to accept that you are reaping the whirlwind you've created in addition to her returning to form. True but don’t forget that the outsourcing helped you change for the better and become the person you are now. If outsourcing had not been part of your journey it’s quite unlikely you would have ever gotten a chance to make it work with (or even MEET) wife 2.0. It’s complicated, all right. But that doesn’t necessarily mean “bad”. @shynjdude if you have not already I’d suggest looking into Esther Perel’s TED talks about beginning a NEW marriage together after there has been infidelity. I’d also suggest not making ANY more jokes about outsourcing!! I think you were lucky to get away with that one. |
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Post by shamwow on Aug 24, 2018 10:45:42 GMT -5
Honest communication also means she is going to explode at you at some point. Sure as shit she is holding in a nuclear bomb worth of stuff about the outsourcing. When she does you are going to have to let her explode (perhaps over and over) until she gets it out (if ever). Right now she may still be afraid to let those feelings out since you've told her you're at the divorce level snapping point. She is likely walking on eggshells trying not to tip you over the edge. So she's super super nice. She's kind. She's understanding. She's apologetic about making you feel horrible. It's great for you. But, brother, I guarantee that storm is inside her and will likely rage as soon as she thinks you've backed sufficiently away from the edge. When she does you will have to accept that you are somewhat reaping the whirlwind you've created in addition to her returning to form. This shit is complicated. That is possible. So far she SEEMS to have had an honest reaction about the outsourcing - again, she asked me about it when she already knew, and I was honest (when she asked me the fourth time). She has not tried to hide her hurt but on the other hand she has said that she understands that I must have been in a very bad place to have considered that, and she has SEEMED to take responsibility for her part of it without letting me off the hook. And I take full responsibility for what I did. (I told her about both APs as well as an emotional affair online I had previously.) In retrospect, she was more upset that I continued to chat with my AP (since I was assuming divorce anyway) than she was over the affair itself. When I ended that - which killed me but it was the right thing to do, dammit - she was surprised but appreciative. She's tried to use it against me in the sense that she claims that she had the opportunity for affairs as well and she said no, claiming moral high ground. I refuse to take that bait, and told her that she could have had sex any time she wanted with me and she knew it - her lack of sex was because she was the refuser, not me. So it APPEARS that she is not papering this over, but you may be right. Time will tell. Right now, in a weird way, we have even joked about it without her getting angry - she jokingly told me once "You think you are such a stud" and I responded that I can't say what I'm thinking because it might hurt her, she asked me to say it anyway, and I said "Well, I did have women worldwide who wanted me." She thought it was funny, or pretended to, and said, "Only two countries." You guys joke about your outsourcing? Does anyone else find that odd? I'd avoid that subject (especially how much of a stud you are with the ladies). Most women get angry if they catch you checking out a woman. Joking about you cheating on her? That just has me scratching my head. Human nature (especially female humans) just don't work that way. |
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Post by shamwow on Aug 24, 2018 10:58:05 GMT -5
Honest communication also means she is going to explode at you at some point. Sure as shit she is holding in a nuclear bomb worth of stuff about the outsourcing. ... But, brother, I guarantee that storm is inside her and will likely rage as soon as she thinks you've backed sufficiently away from the edge. When she does you will have to accept that you are reaping the whirlwind you've created in addition to her returning to form. True but don’t forget that the outsourcing helped you change for the better and become the person you are now. If outsourcing had not been part of your journey it’s quite unlikely you would have ever gotten a chance to make it work with (or even MEET) wife 2.0. It’s complicated, all right. But that doesn’t necessarily mean “bad”. @shynjdude if you have not already I’d suggest looking into Esther Perel’s TED talks about beginning a NEW marriage together after there has been infidelity. I’d also suggest not making ANY more jokes about outsourcing!! I think you were lucky to get away with that one. Oh I totally get that. When you find other people can lust after you, why chasing ends. That's because you know the answer... It's them. I discovered this on my first time post divorce. I get that he needed the outsourcing to prove this to himself. But bragging about his prowess and making jokes? Not smart if you're trying to fix things. I've also cringed a bit when he's said things about how he talks about how sexually experienced he is now to her. It probably feels good to do that "in your face" stuff but I've never met a woman who that wouldn't cut them deeply. The fact she isn't exploding? It ain't because she's sorry for her sins. In her eyes it's @shynjdude who has sinned. As a woman would you be able to keep your shit together if your husband cheated on you, said he did so because it's your fault. Then bragged about his new skills in the sack. And then made jokes about it? And to top it off still staying in touch with the AP? Something here ain't right. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 11:17:11 GMT -5
You guys joke about your outsourcing? Does anyone else find that odd? I'd avoid that subject (especially how much of a stud you are with the ladies). Most women get angry if they catch you checking out a woman. Joking about you cheating on her? That just has me scratching my head. Human nature (especially female humans) just don't work that way. We don't usually joke about it! It is weird, though, which is why I've been wondering if this is hysterical bonding - that my wife not only suddenly sees me for the first time in years (decades?) as a sexual object due to the interest of two women, but also wants to prove to herself that she can be as desirable as they are. Especially since they are both a lot younger. If that's the case, then this might not last long and things could go downhill quickly. I'm hoping that's not the case but I'm trying to mentally prepare for anything. (I did read some stories of how hysterical bonding can last months and sometimes results in a good and lasting relationship, though.) On the other hand, I can confidently say I've never met anyone quite like my wife. She has an unusual thought process that I've never figured out. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but definitely different. At least right now, she seems to value my honesty more than anything else, and (as long as I couch it properly, which I don't always do) I will be honest. And come to think of it, the other thing she seems to value now is that I am present. I spent so much time hiding from her because I didn't want a fight or confrontation. I'm no longer doing that. So she now has the opportunity to learn who I really am, and I am not going to play games to pretend to be anything other than what I am, since there is no point - I'm still ready to call the lawyer if she doesn't like me. And I'm sick of pretending. It is too exhausting. Based on the limited timeframe of three weeks, she seems to like Husband 2.0 as much as I like Wife 2.0. What will be next week is anyone's guess. |
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