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Post by baza on Aug 11, 2018 23:02:10 GMT -5
What you can say with some certainty is that a spouse deploying the re-set strategy will bring as little to the event as they think they can get away with. Enough to pull the wool over your eyes. ... In regard to the sustainability of the re-set strategy, again, as short a period as the re-setter thinks they can get away with. It is rare for it to last any more than a month, 2 maximum. Usually it peters out in a week or so. The good news (for me) is that she is doing way above the minimum. We are spending hours kissing and with foreplay. The "reset" is so far seeming to be a reset in the best sense - a reset of the entire marriage, on both sides, where both of us have changed our attitudes and our approaches to each other. And I have changed (for real) as much as she seems to have changed. The dynamics are completely different. Real? Seems good so far, but of course I cannot be objective from the inside. All I am saying Brother @shynjdude is that by your 5 months hence timeline, you need a stitched up and do-able exit strategy in your pocket, actionable at that time - or earlier in the event of this going pear shaped at speed. That would be a matter of basic prudence. That would put you right in the drivers seat. And that's where you need to be in these situations. As it stands right now, you are in a re-active position. She's driving. You are along for the ride. And her past driving record is somewhat less than stellar. At the very least you need your seatbelt on. You put your seatbelt on as a matter of course when you are in a car. To get into the passenger seat of a vehicle being driven by a notoriously bad driver, and not even have a seatbelt on is courting disaster. Will you have a crash ? I dunno. But if you DO have a crash, and you do NOT have your safety belt on, I do predict that it will be ugly. Please mate, you are a good bloke, no-one wants you to get hurt. YOU drive and also put your safety belt on. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2018 5:41:07 GMT -5
baza, what elements of an exit plan are you referring to specifically? Maybe I'm dense but I'm not sure what I can have in place besides what I've been working on - separating the finances, researching places to move (obviously cannot plan anything specific), creating and shoring up a support network (my problems in that area are more from my lack of good friends to begin with, but I have a little), asking questions from a lawyer when they come up, and ensuring that my job is secure and that my new lower salary will be the baseline for any alimony calculation....What am I missing?
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Post by baza on Aug 12, 2018 6:06:58 GMT -5
It has looked like, up to now, that you were not as advanced in these matters as you now say you are Brother @shynjdude . If, in your opinion, and your lawyers opinion, you are as well prepared as you can be - good on you. In this sceanario, with you prepped, it's just a waiting game now. And with you prepped, you are essentially driving - and your seatbelt is fastened. Tactically, if you want an opinion, it would be that for the moment, let your missus think that she is still driving. And you might just get a heads up of where she thinks she is driving to. "Re-set Land" or perhaps to "Turnaround Land", next door to Brother timeforliving2 . |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2018 6:14:32 GMT -5
Here’s my two cents @shynjdude : I think this is more than a reset; I think she is legitimately trying to change.....HOWEVER, just like one who diets, has success, and then eventually gains the weight back, I think this “new wife” of yours has a shelf life. Maybe it’s a matter of 9 months, maybe it’s a few years, maybe it’s even more! But i do think she will “gain the weight back” as most do — she’ll eventually go back to her old ways (uninterested in sex, critical of you, unappreciative, self-absorbed, sometimes downright mean, and uninterested in living her life according to Jewish values) not because “old habits die hard” but because this is who she IS! The older you get, the harder it is to change core parts of yourself. It doesn’t mean it can’t be done or that people never change but the odds don’t seem to be favorable. Think of those blissful days in NYC with your AP. Would they ever be like that with your W? Could she ever make you as happy as your AP did? Find that previous post you wrote at your 1 year mark and reread the feelings you expressed about love between you two. Do you truly think that kind of love possible with your W? And if not, could you be okay with whatever love you DO think is possible with her or would you always feel you cheated yourself out of a chance to ever have that again? These are good questions. The changes that I'm seeing in my wife are not unilateral. They are, to a large degree, a response to my changes. We've been spending a lot of time talking this weekend, about everything, including what the hell is happening between us now and how quickly we both went from not expecting to ever speak again to lots of kissing and lovemaking. Her answer is that her changes are in response to my finally being straightforward with her about the good and the bad. It does add up. I have dropped a lot of my being judgmental and instead of jumping to conclusions I'm asking her why she says something or acts a certain way. We are different enough that my assumptions are often wrong and I have been shedding them. This has had a profound effect on her. With the sex, she is (acting) as amazed as I am on her 180. She says, over and over, "what the hell was wrong with me that I missed out on this for so many years?" She blames her illness but also there was a layer of resentment against me that has been scrubbed away, at least for now. The future is as murky and scary as it is for anyone. Sure things can go south again. But that can happen in good marriages as well. If I have a chance for the next few years being good, for the first time, the idea that there is something better is not a great argument to break it off. Obviously I need to be careful not to let things fall back into old habits. But if anything has changed between us, it's been the communication.... not the sex. I can now ask her directly about anything that bothers me and she welcomes it. And vice versa. That is what gives me hope. You are right. I cannot see having the same feelings I felt/still feel for my now former AP. But I can see a completely different kind of love growing. It would take time, probably therapy, luck, and hard work. But as you know, I am pro marriage and I like to try to save things if possible. I thought my marriage was way beyond help. I'm rethinking. Which blows me away, to be frank. But there it is. |
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Post by choosinghappy on Aug 12, 2018 8:49:03 GMT -5
Here’s my two cents @shynjdude : I think this is more than a reset; I think she is legitimately trying to change.....HOWEVER, just like one who diets, has success, and then eventually gains the weight back, I think this “new wife” of yours has a shelf life. Maybe it’s a matter of 9 months, maybe it’s a few years, maybe it’s even more! But i do think she will “gain the weight back” as most do — she’ll eventually go back to her old ways (uninterested in sex, critical of you, unappreciative, self-absorbed, sometimes downright mean, and uninterested in living her life according to Jewish values) not because “old habits die hard” but because this is who she IS! The older you get, the harder it is to change core parts of yourself. It doesn’t mean it can’t be done or that people never change but the odds don’t seem to be favorable. Think of those blissful days in NYC with your AP. Would they ever be like that with your W? Could she ever make you as happy as your AP did? Find that previous post you wrote at your 1 year mark and reread the feelings you expressed about love between you two. Do you truly think that kind of love possible with your W? And if not, could you be okay with whatever love you DO think is possible with her or would you always feel you cheated yourself out of a chance to ever have that again? These are good questions. The changes that I'm seeing in my wife are not unilateral. They are, to a large degree, a response to my changes. We've been spending a lot of time talking this weekend, about everything, including what the hell is happening between us now and how quickly we both went from not expecting to ever speak again to lots of kissing and lovemaking. Her answer is that her changes are in response to my finally being straightforward with her about the good and the bad. It does add up. I have dropped a lot of my being judgmental and instead of jumping to conclusions I'm asking her why she says something or acts a certain way. We are different enough that my assumptions are often wrong and I have been shedding them. This has had a profound effect on her. With the sex, she is (acting) as amazed as I am on her 180. She says, over and over, "what the hell was wrong with me that I missed out on this for so many years?" She blames her illness but also there was a layer of resentment against me that has been scrubbed away, at least for now. The future is as murky and scary as it is for anyone. Sure things can go south again. But that can happen in good marriages as well. If I have a chance for the next few years being good, for the first time, the idea that there is something better is not a great argument to break it off. Obviously I need to be careful not to let things fall back into old habits. But if anything has changed between us, it's been the communication.... not the sex. I can now ask her directly about anything that bothers me and she welcomes it. And vice versa. That is what gives me hope. You are right. I cannot see having the same feelings I felt/still feel for my now former AP. But I can see a completely different kind of love growing. It would take time, probably therapy, luck, and hard work. But as you know, I am pro marriage and I like to try to save things if possible. I thought my marriage was way beyond help. I'm rethinking. Which blows me away, to be frank. But there it is. Then I am absolutely hoping for the best for you two! |
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Post by workingonit on Aug 12, 2018 9:53:59 GMT -5
Me too on the hoping for the best! Either way stay present, stay clear headed (don't get sucked into mind fuckery), and enjoy the ride!
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Post by wom360 on Aug 13, 2018 9:49:02 GMT -5
Keep in mind that the knowledge that other women want you is a powerful primal attractor. Likewise women are rarely attracted to men the perceive to be unattractive to other women. Admitting to cheating will often lead to more sex for a while.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2018 12:26:44 GMT -5
Keep in mind that the knowledge that other women want you is a powerful primal attractor. Likewise women are rarely attracted to men the perceive to be unattractive to other women. Admitting to cheating will often lead to more sex for a while. That's related to the hysterical bonding mentioned earlier. I don't think wife would admit this even to herself so there is no way for me to know that, except for the conventional wisdom that hysterical bonding only lasts several weeks so I can wait things out. And enjoy the ride meanwhile. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 7:20:23 GMT -5
Day 11 of this new situation.
Still good communication, she is still enjoying and seeking my body, we are still respectful and polite, and we are still having fun together.
We had to do some boring paperwork together last night and nothing bad happened, she complimented me for my contribution and I thanked her for hers.
A couple of hiccups in navigating this new situation but nothing that can't be solved.
And both of us cannot quite believe this.
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Post by csl on Aug 14, 2018 9:38:44 GMT -5
shynjdude,
I know that folks are telling you to beware the dreaded Reset, and I kinda agree with them, but I also know of experiences other than ILIASMS.
A few years back, on another board, there was a man in his particular SM,who had the additional burden of undergoing kidney failure. As I recall, one Friday evening, his refuser said something really vile to him, and when he told the board about it, the contributors were indignant for his sake, calling for him to make a stand and just dress her down, royally!
But he told of something that happened the next day. He came home from work and accidentally heard his wife having a talk with their adult children about her grief and concern over his health, saying that she didn't know how she could go on without him, if he didn't get a transplant. He backed out, and re-entered the house and didn't let on that he had heard her.
The next morning, Sunday, his wife, the refuser, initiated sex and well, as I recall the post, flat-outravished him, including oral, which had been stricken from their routine for years. Of course, color him shocked.
Over the next few days, she continued to initiate, and to treat him differently outside of the bedroom, as well. However, the board was still truly and righteously indignant about what she had said that Friday night, and kept insisting that he put his foot down and demand an apology for her actions that night.
I jumped in and asked the guy if, since he knew his wife better that we forum dwellers, his wife was one who found it easy to make apologies when she had done something wrong. He acknowledged that his wife found it extremely difficult to ever say the words, "I'm sorry." So I suggested that there are some people who can't say the words "I'm sorry," but live out their apologies by their actions. (I believe the term is teshuvah).
I then said that his wife might not be able to say "I'm sorry", but might be demonstrating her apology by the change she was making in her actions. I then said that there is a popular truism that says that it takes 45 days to turn an action into a habit. I suggested that he give his wife 90 days, to see if this action-based apology was genuine or not, and began a countdown on the board for him.
When three months were up, I posted to the board, announcing the 90 days were up and asked him about the reset and how things had gone. He informed us that his wife, while never able to apologize for what she said that night, had stayed on course, and that their home was completely changed.
I've lost contact with that man, over the years, but I remember the last thing he posted on that board; he said that his marriage had become something that he had only dreamed of.
I know that there are ILIASM shibboleths, such as "no amount of counseling cam make someone want to f*ck you", and ""refusers can't change"; I don't accept them, having seen others who have changed, etc. That doesn't mean that I believe that all marriages can be saved, that all refusers can change--some are just too darned toxic in their souls. But that doesn't mean that change is out of reach, either. I admit it's a crapshoot, but it is possible to roll sevens, even then.
So as to your situation? You're being warned about the end of the year, which is now 4.5 months away. 135 days. Give your wife those 135 days and see if she can turn her teshuvah into a habit, a way of life.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 10:03:35 GMT -5
Thanks, csl. I agree that I need to be concerned about a reset, but it does not push my timeline back much to be all-in right now and gamble that things may really have changed. And I need to emphasize that the changes have occurred for both of us, some of her problems with me are/were valid and I need to improve myself - no matter what happens. And both of us can use some teshuva (repentance for the Hebrew-challenged ). This is in fact the month for teshuva coming up to the Jewish holidays. The fact that finding spirituality is a new focus of my life makes me appreciate your words even more. workingonit may appreciate the irony that my best Elul "mussar schmooze" is coming from a Christian! ( Vehamayvin yavin.) (Apologies to the rest of the board for throwing in inside humor.) |
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Post by shamwow on Aug 14, 2018 12:21:11 GMT -5
shynjdude, I know that folks are telling you to beware the dreaded Reset, and I kinda agree with them, but I also know of experiences other than ILIASMS. A few years back, on another board, there was a man in his particular SM,who had the additional burden of undergoing kidney failure. As I recall, one Friday evening, his refuser said something really vile to him, and when he told the board about it, the contributors were indignant for his sake, calling for him to make a stand and just dress her down, royally! But he told of something that happened the next day. He came home from work and accidentally heard his wife having a talk with their adult children about her grief and concern over his health, saying that she didn't know how she could go on without him, if he didn't get a transplant. He backed out, and re-entered the house and didn't let on that he had heard her. The next morning, Sunday, his wife, the refuser, initiated sex and well, as I recall the post, flat-outravished him, including oral, which had been stricken from their routine for years. Of course, color him shocked. Over the next few days, she continued to initiate, and to treat him differently outside of the bedroom, as well. However, the board was still truly and righteously indignant about what she had said that Friday night, and kept insisting that he put his foot down and demand an apology for her actions that night. I jumped in and asked the guy if, since he knew his wife better that we forum dwellers, his wife was one who found it easy to make apologies when she had done something wrong. He acknowledged that his wife found it extremely difficult to ever say the words, "I'm sorry." So I suggested that there are some people who can't say the words "I'm sorry," but live out their apologies by their actions. (I believe the term is teshuvah). I then said that his wife might not be able to say "I'm sorry", but might be demonstrating her apology by the change she was making in her actions. I then said that there is a popular truism that says that it takes 45 days to turn an action into a habit. I suggested that he give his wife 90 days, to see if this action-based apology was genuine or not, and began a countdown on the board for him. When three months were up, I posted to the board, announcing the 90 days were up and asked him about the reset and how things had gone. He informed us that his wife, while never able to apologize for what she said that night, had stayed on course, and that their home was completely changed. I've lost contact with that man, over the years, but I remember the last thing he posted on that board; he said that his marriage had become something that he had only dreamed of. I know that there are ILIASM shibboleths, such as "no amount of counseling cam make someone want to f*ck you", and ""refusers can't change"; I don't accept them, having seen others who have changed, etc. That doesn't mean that I believe that all marriages can be saved, that all refusers can change--some are just too darned toxic in their souls. But that doesn't mean that change is out of reach, either. I admit it's a crapshoot, but it is possible to roll sevens, even then. So as to your situation? You're being warned about the end of the year, which is now 4.5 months away. 135 days. Give your wife those 135 days and see if she can turn her teshuvah into a habit, a way of life. Another good point. Had a business partner turn it around similarly. Sometimes people need a "near death" experience to change. Give it till the end of the year. But I would also advise not to stop making preparations. Line up the work situation. Get finances separated, and quietly prepare. I still think the overwhelming odds are that this is a reset in her particular flavor. But I would be quite happy to be wrong. Let nature take its course. |
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Post by csl on Aug 14, 2018 15:52:59 GMT -5
The fact that finding spirituality is a new focus of my life makes me appreciate your words even more. workingonit may appreciate the irony that my best Elul "mussar schmooze" is coming from a Christian! ( Vehamayvin yavin.) (Apologies to the rest of the board for throwing in inside humor.) It should be so surprising? Mein rebbe is a Jewish carpenter. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 6:56:33 GMT -5
One reason I'm being cautiously optimistic about my wife's improbable change from a refuser to a lover is how she acts subconsciously.
I remember quite well the feeling of being subconsciously rejected - the folding arms to keep a hug from getting too close, the turning the face away when trying to kiss, the turning away when trying to cuddle, all of the subliminal clues that one's partners wants anything but intimacy.
At the moment, that is all gone.
The best proof is that for the last few days, I've been visiting her bedroom early in the morning while she is still asleep and cuddling her. Instead of the reflexive turning away and pulling the sheets close around her to minimize skin contact, she has been coming close to be hugged and held before even fully waking up. (And yesterday I was rewarded even more.)
This is a huge change, and it seems really unlikely that this is an act.
I'm still shaking my head.
It appears that over Labor Day weekend, I will be driving with her halfway across the country, an 18 hour trip. I used to dread car trips with her of even an hour. If we are still lovey-dovey after that, then my cautious optimism will go up.
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 16, 2018 7:11:06 GMT -5
“
I remember quite well the feeling of being subconsciously rejected - the folding arms to keep a hug from getting too close, the turning the face away when trying to kiss, the turning away when trying to cuddle, all of the subliminal clues that one's partners wants anything but intimacy.
At the moment, that is all gone.”
Good evidence since her behavior that you call “unconscious” was actually deliberate.
“The best proof is that for the last few days, I've been visiting her bedroom early in the morning while she is still asleep and cuddling her. Instead of the reflexive turning away and pulling the sheets close around her to minimize skin contact, she has been coming close to be hugged and held before even fully waking up. (And yesterday I was rewarded even more.) “
Great evidence of her change! My refuser ex used to move away from me in his sleep. I now know that was hard evidence that he was sexually repulsed by me.
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