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Post by baza on May 24, 2016 4:14:31 GMT -5
The consultative approach doesn't have a great record of success in negotiating in a dysfunctional marriage.
We only have to look at our own marriages to attest to that fact.
There is no "us" in such a situation.
Thus, the only concessions an avoidant spouse is interested in are ones that are to THEIR benefit.
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Nor does the consultative approach have much of a record as a strategy in mutually agreeing to end the dysfunctional marriage either.
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For the end game, you are best to disregard any likelyhood of this being a consultative process.
It almost certainly won't be.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 17:37:50 GMT -5
UPDATE: First "full session" of therapy tonight. I realized that I've been in agony approaching The Talk because I'm thinking I have to convince her -- intellectually -- that "a divorce is a good idea, given where we are". The main reason it won't work is she doesn't want a divorce. It wasn't in her plans; things aren't bad enough for that in her mind. But what I realized is that the REASON I'm approaching it that way is -- well, it is who I am. EVERY OTHER discussion I have in my life is based on intellect. My work, discussion about politics/policy, even parenting and other household decisions are made by TALKING rationally. I think I've been approaching it that way to sidestep the HUMONGOUS amount of selfishness I feel for wanting a life without her. If I convince her it is a good idea, then it isn't [so] selfish. My therapist pointed out that it is not selfish to want to be happy, and it's damn tough being a martyr to some abstract ideal of "sticking with a marriage for the sake of it". Dan, listen to your therapist. He/she is right. Logic and reason do not resonate with some people. Also, on topics like love, sex, marriage - I think logic and reason are not enough. You have to allow for emotion and intuition in decisions about things like that. And even if you think that you, yourself, are strictly about logic and reason - remember that even the most logical person does have feelings. Don't neglect your own feelings when making this decision. And that's what the therapist said. Your emotions are telling you it's time to figure out how YOU can be happy. And wanting to be happy is not selfish at all! |
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Post by ggold on May 24, 2016 18:03:03 GMT -5
UPDATE: First "full session" of therapy tonight. I realized that I've been in agony approaching The Talk because I'm thinking I have to convince her -- intellectually -- that "a divorce is a good idea, given where we are". The main reason it won't work is she doesn't want a divorce. It wasn't in her plans; things aren't bad enough for that in her mind. But what I realized is that the REASON I'm approaching it that way is -- well, it is who I am. EVERY OTHER discussion I have in my life is based on intellect. My work, discussion about politics/policy, even parenting and other household decisions are made by TALKING rationally. I think I've been approaching it that way to sidestep the HUMONGOUS amount of selfishness I feel for wanting a life without her. If I convince her it is a good idea, then it isn't [so] selfish. My therapist pointed out that it is not selfish to want to be happy, and it's damn tough being a martyr to some abstract ideal of "sticking with a marriage for the sake of it". Your emotions are telling you it's time to figure out how YOU can be happy. And wanting to be happy is not selfish at all! @smartkat This is what I struggle with, feeling selfish for wanting happiness. I had a talk with my mom the other day. She knows my situation. She was in a loveless marriage with my dad for many years. She was very unhappy but stayed with him for us. She told me that she wants happiness for me but feels I should sacrifice it for my children. I told her I could not do that anymore. Still, she said the words and it brings up all sorts of feelings. I know what I have to do. My happiness matters. |
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Post by unmatched on May 24, 2016 18:10:52 GMT -5
@smartkat This is what I struggle with, feeling selfish for wanting happiness. I had a talk with my mom the other day. She knows my situation. She was in a loveless marriage with my dad for many years. She was very unhappy but stayed with him for us. She told me that she wants happiness for me but feels I should sacrifice it for my children. I told her I could not do that anymore. Still, she said the words and it brings up all sorts of feelings. I know what I have to do. My happiness matters. it is often said around here that children learn from their parents and will often grow up either unconsciously recreating their parents' relationship or unconsciously rebelling against it. Given that your mother was also in a loveless marriage, do you think this was true for you? What did you learn about relationships when you were growing up? |
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Post by ggold on May 24, 2016 18:42:12 GMT -5
@smartkat This is what I struggle with, feeling selfish for wanting happiness. I had a talk with my mom the other day. She knows my situation. She was in a loveless marriage with my dad for many years. She was very unhappy but stayed with him for us. She told me that she wants happiness for me but feels I should sacrifice it for my children. I told her I could not do that anymore. Still, she said the words and it brings up all sorts of feelings. I know what I have to do. My happiness matters. it is often said around here that children learn from their parents and will often grow up either unconsciously recreating their parents' relationship or unconsciously rebelling against it. Given that your mother was also in a loveless marriage, do you think this was true for you? What did you learn about relationships when you were growing up? When I was very young, I thought they had a good relationship. They didn't see much of each other, though. My dad worked a couple of jobs and one was a night shift. I do not consciously remember this but at that time my father was a drinker, would come home drunk, and be mean (verbally) to my mom. She tried to shield us three kids from this. He stopped drinking for several years and started up again when I was a teenager. This is when I began to notice the strain in their relationship. They would argue and he would say that he couldn't win and nothing he said was right. He'd be miserable when around her and she around him. They didn't do fun things together. He was a happy-go-lucky guy who was very social and had a lot of friends. He was the one who took us to our activities and brought us places. My mom had phobias and preferred to stay home. Plus she didn't want to go anywhere with him especially if drinking was involved. They didn't hug, kiss, cuddle...no affection. So, yes, I witnessed a loveless, SM marriage with no intimacy at all. They separated after 35 years of marriage because my dad was caught with his AP. My mom was so angry with him and to this day will never admit to a part in their failed relationship. She did, though, care for him in his dying days and maybe reconciled with him somehow. I do feel I learned the following all of which led me to my SM.... 1. I never witnessed healthy communication between my parents and therefore I do not communicate well with my H. 2. Sacrifice of self-happiness. My mom had a hard life before and after marriage and was very unhappy. It was my norm...a mom, wife needs to sacrifice happiness for others-especially for her children. 4. Intimacy not a necessary part of a marriage. (I'm sure my list can go on and on...) So, I guess you can say that I have recreated my parents marriage in a way. I am not in an abusive relationship. H is a good man. I have just accepted my unhappiness for years and now you can see why. :-( |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 18:43:56 GMT -5
Your emotions are telling you it's time to figure out how YOU can be happy. And wanting to be happy is not selfish at all! @smartkat This is what I struggle with, feeling selfish for wanting happiness. I had a talk with my mom the other day. She knows my situation. She was in a loveless marriage with my dad for many years. She was very unhappy but stayed with him for us. She told me that she wants happiness for me but feels I should sacrifice it for my children. I told her I could not do that anymore. Still, she said the words and it brings up all sorts of feelings. I know what I have to do. My happiness matters. If everybody does that, and it goes down through the generations, is anybody ever happy? |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 18:45:10 GMT -5
ggold, people don't have to live that way anymore!
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Post by ggold on May 24, 2016 18:45:42 GMT -5
@smartkat This is what I struggle with, feeling selfish for wanting happiness. I had a talk with my mom the other day. She knows my situation. She was in a loveless marriage with my dad for many years. She was very unhappy but stayed with him for us. She told me that she wants happiness for me but feels I should sacrifice it for my children. I told her I could not do that anymore. Still, she said the words and it brings up all sorts of feelings. I know what I have to do. My happiness matters. If everybody does that, and it goes down through the generations, is anybody ever happy? I know. You would think that because she lived in a miserable relationship she would want better for me! I agree. It's just her way of thinking. Maybe old-school? I don't know but I try not to speak with her about my situation too much because this is what I get. |
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Post by ggold on May 24, 2016 18:47:45 GMT -5
ggold , people don't have to live that way anymore! @smartkat I have worked so hard over the years to know that my happiness matters. I still struggle, but I know I have to make an exit plan. My kids are young but they are picking up on this and it is unhealthy for them as well. I don't want to continue to take them on the path that I was led down. :-( |
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Post by wewbwb on May 29, 2016 7:10:45 GMT -5
I think another version of The Talk (TM) @smartkat , is looming on my horizon.
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Post by bballgirl on May 29, 2016 7:38:28 GMT -5
ggold it is often said around here that children learn from their parents and will often grow up either unconsciously recreating their parents' relationship or unconsciously rebelling against it. Given that your mother was also in a loveless marriage, do you think this was true for you? What did you learn about relationships when you were growing up? When I was very young, I thought they had a good relationship. They didn't see much of each other, though. My dad worked a couple of jobs and one was a night shift. I do not consciously remember this but at that time my father was a drinker, would come home drunk, and be mean (verbally) to my mom. She tried to shield us three kids from this. He stopped drinking for several years and started up again when I was a teenager. This is when I began to notice the strain in their relationship. They would argue and he would say that he couldn't win and nothing he said was right. He'd be miserable when around her and she around him. They didn't do fun things together. He was a happy-go-lucky guy who was very social and had a lot of friends. He was the one who took us to our activities and brought us places. My mom had phobias and preferred to stay home. Plus she didn't want to go anywhere with him especially if drinking was involved. They didn't hug, kiss, cuddle...no affection. So, yes, I witnessed a loveless, SM marriage with no intimacy at all. They separated after 35 years of marriage because my dad was caught with his AP. My mom was so angry with him and to this day will never admit to a part in their failed relationship. She did, though, care for him in his dying days and maybe reconciled with him somehow. I do feel I learned the following all of which led me to my SM.... 1. I never witnessed healthy communication between my parents and therefore I do not communicate well with my H. 2. Sacrifice of self-happiness. My mom had a hard life before and after marriage and was very unhappy. It was my norm...a mom, wife needs to sacrifice happiness for others-especially for her children. 4. Intimacy not a necessary part of a marriage. (I'm sure my list can go on and on...) So, I guess you can say that I have recreated my parents marriage in a way. I am not in an abusive relationship. H is a good man. I have just accepted my unhappiness for years and now you can see why. :-( "It was my norm that a wife and mom sacrifices happiness". I understand this frame of mind being a mother and not too long ago a wife. The night we told the kids together about the divorce, my 9 year old daughter came to me alone in my room and asked me "who decided this? Who wanted this divorce?". Goodness she caught me off guard with that question. So at first I asked her "who do you think decided this?" She said "YOU because of the way daddy yells at you". Right there I decided to answer her question because she needed to know that if someone is not treating you well and you are not happy in the relationship then you don't have to be with them. So I told her, "yes I decided. Mommy was not happy being married to daddy and mommy wants to be happy. With anyone in life, a friend, a co worker, neighbor, anyone - if they don't treat you right then they don't have to be in your life". Of course after that I went on to assure her that this was not going to take a big toll on her life and we will do our best to keep things the same as much as possible. I think her biggest concern was her social life! Lol So my point is as she gets older and my son too - they will see that self sacrifice for the children is not always the best choice, the best example to learn from. Find your happiness! |
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Post by petrushka on May 29, 2016 7:40:46 GMT -5
It's an irony, really, that the 'consultative approach' as Bazz calls it, has worked just fine for me twice, in the committed relationships I had ended before my current marriage.
But that's not really what I am here to say.
Look, as I see it it's not about guilt, it's not about 'promises made in the past' and it's not about the right to happiness - not really i.m.o.
As I see it it's about how the relationship is playing out now. And it's about the questions: What are my needs and wants. What needs and wants are not being met. What needs and wants can I do without, and which ones am I not going to abandon.
And you have to draw the line in the sand according to the answers to that last question.
Then of course, there's a also the line in the sand to do with emotional or physical abuse. Abuse is a different ballgame again; and in my not so humble opinion nobody should [have to] put up with abuse. It's just not ok.
And once I've pondered all those things I can set a course, and if the course I have decided on is that I am not going to stay in this wreck of a relationship, either because my needs are not being met (never mind the wants, I may want a Ferrari but I can live perfectly well without one) or I have had quite enough of the abuse and it's starting to eat away at me, then the whole thing of guilt and consultation vs. unilateral action becomes moot, in a way: because we're going to go our different ways will ye or nil ye, so at that point it may be nice if there is still a friendly relationship afterwards (particularly if co-parenting is involved) but: you've just decided to make a break, the boats will float away from each other and that's that. Really. At that point I don't have to care about consensus any more.
Consensus, at that point, is merely the icing on the cake, but I'm perfectly happy to eat my cake without icing. So if the other party is not willing to listen and come to an amicable solution in the end, then fuck it, and don't obsess about making it so when you can't. {this is assuming that all prior attempts at repair have failed, but that failure may not necessarily be a consequence of your s.o. not being willing, they may just not be able to meet your needs, that is a possibility too}
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 22, 2016 13:04:38 GMT -5
So...dan, how is the new councilor working out?
In your latest post you mentioned your wife wanting to just get it over with. Do you think your wife suffers from "fear of intimacy?"
I look back on all the hair stroking and total full back rubs I would give my STBX. She gladly accepted them, asked for them. They became routine "acts of service" to her. While in my mind they were for-play that should have led to intimacy and sex, (if not then ,within a day or two). I would have liked a back rub in return, only her fear of intimacy stopped that from happening. She would get relaxed and fall asleep. Her way of not facing intimacy or sex.
About a year ago my STBX started asking the children to give her back rubs, (mostly my daughters) they stopped and turned her down. Acting like they were getting nothing out of it. Again all taking and no giving. My STBX started paying them to do it. Ironically it would occur in the evenings, in our bedroom with me sitting there, available. I just watched the whole thing unfold and quickly end. Even the kids don"t want to anymore, even for money.
The once a year hand job, from her to me, turned out to be a chore.
Lots of interesting articles on fear of intimacy and sex. Much goes back to childhood but not all of it.
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