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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 28, 2018 21:50:45 GMT -5
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Post by elkclan2 on Jan 29, 2018 2:09:32 GMT -5
Look I get that you are hurting, but I certainly do not agree that this is a 'gynocentric' world. This writer is allied to the MRM who spread genuine and dangerous misogyny. Her schtick is bashing women for an audience of men who then can say "look it's a woman who said it, so it must be true".
Even if what she writes matches YOUR circumstances in any particular article, she dangerously overextends the trope. And it is a trope. I've spent a lot of time looking at the murky underbelly of MRA, alt-right, and racist web. More than was healthy. I did it because I lived with the consequences of being married to someone who fell down that rabbit hole. And believe me, he used plenty of relational aggression. Men are more than capable of using relational aggression and they can often back it up with fists. It isn't men who often die at the hands of their partners. (Though obviously that sometimes happens.) What this writer and her allies do is minimise the violence that men do and big-up the violence and shitty behaviour that women do - and obviously women, being human, can engage in shitty behaviour.
The MRM isn't really about men's rights - it's about preying on your emotional vulnerability at a difficult point in your life and wallowing in bitterness. I would strongly encourage you to look elsewhere for support.
I know you'll probably think "she would say that". But I really find this woman's writing hateful and misogynistic and it works against the healing that I'm trying to do. You can read this stuff if you want to, but I encourage you to think about all the women who have suffered a lot of relational aggression - not least passive aggressive sexual withholding from their male partners and consider if sharing articles like these is helpful to them (hint: it isn't).
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Post by baza on Jan 29, 2018 2:21:52 GMT -5
I read (and wrote in here) about a study of domestic violence conducted by the University of Dunedin in New Zealand.
After the extensive survey, they checked their data and thought "Oops, there is something gone wrong here. It is not at all showing what we thought would be the case"
So they checked it all again - exhaustively.
Same result as before.
The study showed that there was no gender difference in perpetrators of domestic violence.
That a woman is just as likely to whack a bloke as a bloke is to belt a woman.
That's worth underlining.
Of course if a 45 kg woman hits a 150kg bloke the damage is unlikely to be terribly visible.
Whereas if a 150kg bloke hits a 45kg woman, the damage will likely be substantial.
But the intent, is identical.
The study also went on to verbal violence as well, and again, no gender bias appeared in that either.
Apparently the University of Denmark have conducted a similar study more recently and are finding the same thing.
Thus far, the studies have not been generally accepted. Research continues.
But, I always thought (for years) domestic violence equals - drunken/violent bloke hits petite little woman.
It ain't necessarily so.
Disclaimer -
I detest domestic violence. It is a blight on society in my jurisdiction.
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Post by elkclan2 on Jan 29, 2018 5:52:03 GMT -5
Actually Baza - we cannot assume that the intent is identical because they research framework used in the Dunedin study doesn't look at intent or indeed any context. It doesn't ask if striking is in self-defense or in provocation. It's also based on self-reporting and there is (wrongly) less stigma in women striking men so it's possible to say that women might be more likely to self-report.  Maybe - who knows? |
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Post by h on Jan 29, 2018 6:51:59 GMT -5
I think any time a limited situation is applied to a whole population is a bad idea. I do agree with some of the things in the article about how the justice system favors women. False accusations ruin lives and the assumption is that men are always guilty regardless of evidence. A man I know was accused by one of his foster kids. The girl had a long history of lying and documented psychological issues. It didn't make any shred of difference. He lost his job when the accusation was made. His career and professional life are over forever.
After all this, nothing will happen to the accuser and she knows it. She succeeded in ruining his life and will face no consequences for it. This article absolutely does NOT describe all women but it does serve as a warning for men to protect themselves from the few bad apples out there.
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Post by baza on Jan 29, 2018 6:52:00 GMT -5
Actually Baza - we cannot assume that the intent is identical because they research framework used in the Dunedin study doesn't look at intent or indeed any context. It doesn't ask if striking is in self-defense or in provocation. It's also based on self-reporting and there is (wrongly) less stigma in women striking men so it's possible to say that women might be more likely to self-report. Maybe - who knows? Fair call on that "intent" issue Sister elkclan2 . The study did not canvas intent directly I *feel* but can't prove that in the self reporting blokes might not admit to being hit by women either. I guess further research will tell the tale. The more research there is on this issue the better I reckon. |
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Post by WindSister on Jan 29, 2018 10:42:59 GMT -5
I think it's worth a look at, personally. I was at the receiving end of mean girls in middle school, it's a real thing and man is it vicious! I also agree that today's feminism has gotten ugly. Feminism had it's place in history and I am thankful for it, but now? Yelling in crowds wearing pussy hats? Um... losing me. If I DARE say that out loud to some of my more liberal/women friends, though, I am quickly put in my place by their guilt/shame tactics, so I just shut up. Let them yell. I don't see it helping, and actually seeing it create more of a divide.
I am glad that the sexual predators are getting due justice finally - that women are speaking up about that.
As always I can't align with just "one side" of any issue because I see all sides. I see the faults of all sides as well as the valid points. People need to step back, detach ego and think for themselves in each situation.
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 29, 2018 11:09:11 GMT -5
The bottom line is that people treat us the way we allow them to treat us.
According to the article relational aggression is bullying without the physical violence so it's important for one to speak up and call the other person out if they feel bullied. If the behavior continues the relationship should end.
I will only have people in my life that make my life better. When they don't make my life better they will no longer be in my life.
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Post by WindSister on Jan 29, 2018 19:47:17 GMT -5
Case in point...... a Facebook dialogue I observed on Facebook. I did not contribute to it, just observed. This is a distant relative of mine. I know she was just trying to be funny, it is her sense of humor, whatever, but.... what if it was her husband who wrote, "I would kick her in the uterus, but I want another baby from her!" Would there still be all the smiley, laugh-y faces? No. Betting one of them find their way to this site in 5, 10, 20?? years.    |
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Post by WindSister on Jan 29, 2018 19:50:50 GMT -5
Granted, his "what u making" would be infuriating..... lol. Again, communication like that? Sexless at some point....
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Post by obobfla on Jan 29, 2018 21:46:43 GMT -5
There are some truths in the article. I admit, there are some aggressive women out there. I haven’t been victim to them (except the sister of a girl I dated. The sister got mad and hit in the head with a hairbrush, caused stitches), but I have known them.
But there are too many generalizations for me to take it seriously, and it is incredibly biased. Not all feminists are anti-men. Many just want an equal playing field. Some feminists are even men themselves, and no we don’t hate ourselves. I don’t want to rule over a woman, and I don’t want a woman to rule over me. I want an equal partner.
And there are men who feel that they deserve to dictate based on the fact that they have a penis, and their mate doesn’t. And there are women who will gladly let the man take the throne but control the castle by other means.
It’s more than a man-woman thing. There are many people who believe that domestic violence is normal and to be expected in a relationship. Some are the perpetrators. Other are the victims. They seek out partners who are like-minded. There are women who think that if their man doesn’t get blindly jealous with rage, then the man doesn’t truly love them. Others play manipulative games. We see enough here on the forum that both sexes do that.
I was fortunate that I had two people who were devoted to each other as parents. I only saw my parents yell at each other once. It was the most infuriating thing to us kids, because we could never get them to disagree. If one said no, the other backed him or her up. They always presented a united front.
Others saw their parents yell, hit, and manipulate. That is what they learned, and that is what they practice.
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Post by greatcoastal on Feb 1, 2018 21:36:28 GMT -5
I know you'll probably think "she would say that". But I really find this woman's writing hateful and misogynistic and it works against the healing that I'm trying to do. You can read this stuff if you want to, but I encourage you to think about all the women who have suffered a lot of relational aggression - not least passive aggressive sexual withholding from their male partners and consider if sharing articles like these is helpful to them (hint: it isn't). I'm disappointed in your narrow approach at deciding what i think. You are mistaken. When I come across articles like this I find "parts" that are different, maybe unique, and decide to put it out there for others to read decipher ,and apply "if" they find it applicable and helpful. That's about it. I prefer articles that have research, and examples to back their ideas an thoughts and solutions. I also noticed how applicable the article was for woman, and how they are treated by other woman. (,hint: articles like this can be helpful to them) How women treat other woman and how I was treated by woman, was very different. I spent TWENTY years dealing with hundreds of different woman in groups being a home school dad (home school groups dealing only with woman/moms) and a stay at home dad,( pre school dealing only with women/moms) . Involving my six kids in separate sports activities, changing every season, (dealing mostly with women/moms). raising adoptive children who where abandoned in a communist nation, ( dealing with other moms who adopted special needs children). Working and volunteering for years in child care, ( dealing with women/moms) . And witnessing first hand relational aggression by being shunned out of click-ish groups simply because I am a man, without even having a chance to be myself. ( you want to talk coupons, changing diapers, house hold cleaners, child discipline books, crock pot recipes, cooking for 9 people every night, kids books, kids TV programs, teacher conference meetings, etc.... bring it on! I can hang with the best of em'!) Now how YOU think that means that I CAN NOT relate, or have compassion and empathy for" woman who have suffered a lot of relational aggression- not least passive aggressive sexual withholding from their male partners " when that is what I have received from my very own manipulative controlling wife of 25 years"......just boggles my mind! If you think that is helpful for me? (hint: it isn't) right along with woman who where hateful and misogynistic toward me , in their "world of raising children" while I was being a caring father carrying out my rights and responsibility to raise my own children. |
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Post by elkclan2 on Feb 7, 2018 7:03:13 GMT -5
Woah dude! Now you're putting words in my mouth - and incomprehensible ones at that! I am saying that this article is shite and written by a woman who has a long history of fomenting hate against other women and a close association with MRA. I am saying these 'women hating' articles are rubbing salt in MY wound!! I didn't say you couldn't relate or show empathy, but I think in this case, by sharing this article, you have not. When an article starts out with 'gynocentric' without research, without proof it comes from a particular ideological standpoint and one that is dangerous and offensive. You're free to share what you like, but you're not immune from criticism when something you share is offensive. I'm sure you do know plenty of women, but bottom line, you aren't one. And frankly all the coupon-cutting and crock pot recipes in the world doesn't matter, wtf? does that give you insight into a 'woman's mind', that's not my life. (My life is actually doing and assessing social research and formulating policy solutions, as it happens.)
H- . Yes, false accusations can ruin lives. I'm certain. Of course they can. Did you hear about the woman who was raped, reported it to the police, they decided she wasn't raped, falsely accused her of false report and she was fined and had her life ruined. I'm glad she sued the crap out of them. Did you hear about the woman who reported her husband for rape (with hospital report and all), and then, as many DV sufferers do, she withdrew the complaint and then was prosecuted and jailed for false accusation. Life ruined. But hey, at least she was out of reach of her violent spouse. Do I think the justice system favours women? No, I don't. Not in divorce courts. Not in family courts. And certainly not in the criminal justice system.
The number of actual false accusations of rape is ridiculously low compared to the number of rapes that are reported and not prosecuted. That doesn't mean they should be ignored, but neither should they be overemphasised.
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Post by northstarmom on Feb 7, 2018 7:35:44 GMT -5
When it comes to rape, I’ve not only read research but have seen personally how prevalent rape is for women.
I have never met a man who has told me he was falsely accused of rape. I’ve never found out that a man I knew was charged with rape.
But I know lots of women who have been raped, and most didn’t report it.
Best friend in high school was raped. She’d skipped school and was hanging out with some other teens. The guy who lived in the house took her on a tour to look at the house then raped her in the laundry room. She was a virgin. She didn’t report it because she figured it was his word against hers.
Two other friends were raped by their first boyfriends. Didn’t report it.
One friend was raped by her uncle when she was taking a nap at his house while visiting him for a week. She was 12. He blamed her. She didn’t report it because she feared her dad, his brother, would kill him.
Another was raped in a parking garage at her college. She reported it. Police blamed her for wearing a miniskirt.
Various other friends were molested as kids by men.
A friend was raped last summer by her ex boyfriend. She had broken up with him because he had hit her.
These are just some examples.
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Post by h on Feb 7, 2018 8:05:28 GMT -5
elkclan2
I don't know where you're from, but where I live, the courts absolutely favor women in divorce proceedings, family court, and criminal cases. There was actually a case a couple years ago where a couple, husband AND wife were caught kidnapping and molesting children but the man got a lengthy prison sentence while his fully participating wife got probation and a referral for mental health treatment. Both committed the same crimes. Also look at cases of teachers taking advantage of students. Male offenders get hard prison time while female offenders get lighter sentences. There's nothing equal about it.
I definitely support victims of abuse in any case, but not at the expense of due process. Punishment for equal crimes should be equal regardless of gender. False accusations should be punished with the same severity as what would apply to the crime being accused regardless of gender.
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Maybe - who knows?
