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Post by petrushka on Nov 9, 2017 14:50:12 GMT -5
For centuries, for millenia, religion has been used to bully and guilt people into not having sex. And now we're seeing religion being used to bully people into having it?!? {snort} excuse my cynical mirth. Or don't. elkclan2 -- I totally get the dung beetle analogy. Bang on the button. Most people don't want to eat shit, never mind what some dude on the internet says. "All humans are capable of using their holy books or laws or tenets of their beliefs to justify what they want. You know that. She knows that." Most fervent believers do not know that, in my observation. They simply cannot understand why other people don't see what to them is the obvious truth that they found in their holy book. They study their holy books looking for ammunition. They have no self-awareness when it comes to that. N.b. I said 'most'. DryCreek an awful lot of brandishing is going on. What I see a lot is people using their holy books as a weapon, to justify what-the-fuck-ever they want and to put themselves in the right (and whoever doesn't agree with them in the wrong). The whole topic really goes into the realm of "whatever" for me. It's my personal passive-aggressive realization (or is it just rationality?) that I am never, ever, going to influence one single mind when it comes to religion, and how people weaponize it. At the extreme end, ISIS is the epitome of this: rape, slavery, mass killings "for a better world and the glory of God". But don't think it doesn't go on, on a small scale, in a house in your neighbourhood. I leave them be, and I don't try to engage them on the subject. Genuine theological scholars already know and I had many wonderful talks with the few I met ... but they are few and far between. |
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Post by DryCreek on Nov 9, 2017 15:54:34 GMT -5
petrushka, yes, yes, many atrocities throughout history have been power plays thinly veiled by religious justifications. My point is not about religion. It's about simpler terms and conditions. It would be senseless to brow-beat a Muslim or an atheist with the Christian definition of marriage. It's not relevant to them. That's not in the scope of how they define their world. But for two Christians entering into marriage, the Biblical guidance on marriage is extremely relevant, part of the beliefs they've mutually adopted, and a clear definition of the expectation that both parties should have. So, for them, it's very relevant to be reminded of the fully-informed commitment they made at the altar. The same would hold true for couples subscribing to any other religion that defines the expectations of marriage. In a very crude parallel, each country has different rules for conducting business; if you can't abide by the rules, take your business elsewhere. Don't expect any leniency when you flaunt the rules after you signed up to follow them.
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Post by shamwow on Nov 9, 2017 17:19:24 GMT -5
Even your church teachings can’t make your wife want to fuck you. What’s the point of leaving that article out? It’s not going to cause your wife to become a woman who lusts for you and fucks you with delight. Then it serves as additional justification for divorce to my community, friends and family if/when it comes to that. I get that you stopped believing in "magical sky wizard" but others have not. That's why I stated that it was a Christian article and didn't apply to everyone. Please feel free to ignore these in the future. In the end, you don't need to justify anything in the eyes of your community, friends, and family. As a person of faith, you only need to be right with yourself and your God. I would advise against leaving the article out for her to see. It fulfills no constructive purpose and doesn't pass the WWJD test. At best it will be ignored, at worst, it picks a needless fight (again, not what Jesus would do). You've been around this block enough to know that it will not have any kind of positive change. |
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Post by petrushka on Nov 9, 2017 17:58:48 GMT -5
It would be senseless to brow-beat a Muslim or an atheist with the Christian definition of marriage. It's not relevant to them. That's not in the scope of how they define their world. But for two Christians entering into marriage, the Biblical guidance on marriage is extremely relevant, part of the beliefs they've mutually adopted, and a clear definition of the expectation that both parties should have. So, for them, it's very relevant to be reminded of the fully-informed commitment they made at the altar. But, you see, that simply isn't the case. Exegesis comes into it. Take the 'classic' view of the Catholic Church - turn of last century: you're only supposed to bonk if you intend to make more Catholic babies. Which, I am sure, is not at all congruent with what brother h desires.In a very crude parallel, each country has different rules for conducting business; if you can't abide by the rules, take your business elsewhere. Don't expect any leniency when you flaunt the rules after you signed up to follow them. Y upp, I do know that. One reason why I am happy to be an expat. But the codes of law of most countries are pretty unambiguous so long as you don't get into countries that follow religious laws (i.e. Middle East where a guy just spent 5 months in jail for touching another blokes hip trying to get past him). Holy books are ambiguous at best, and just plain self contradictory at worst. Which is why there is no such thing as a paradigm of Christian Marriage as you refer to it.
As a very crude example: just look at how how many Christians treat the very unambiguous "Thou shalt not kill".
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Post by baza on Nov 9, 2017 20:38:31 GMT -5
Personally, I think the 10 commandments could do with a revision, and a line could be put through many of them.
Do not have any other god before God
Do not make yourself an idol
Do not take the Lord's name in vain
Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it holy
Honor your mother and father
Do not murder
Do not commit adultery
Do not steal
Do not testify or bear false witness against your neighbor
Do not covet
Or perhaps the principles as expressed in the church of our esteemed Brother wewbwb.
Very simple, only one commandment -
"Don't be a dick"
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Post by csl on Nov 9, 2017 21:27:55 GMT -5
Personally, I think the 10 commandments could do with a revision, and a line could be put through many of them. Do not have any other god before GodDo not make yourself an idolDo not take the Lord's name in vainRemember the Sabbath Day and keep it holyHonor your mother and fatherDo not murder Do not commit adulteryDo not steal Do not testify or bear false witness against your neighbor Do not covet Or perhaps the principles as expressed in the church of our esteemed Brother wewbwb. Very simple, only one commandment - "Don't be a dick" Hmmm.... Wonder if Reb wewbwb is into editing Torah for his synagog? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2017 0:44:23 GMT -5
Well-written and scripturally-supported article. Thank you for sharing. They’ve done a nice job pointing out the equality of men and women in their rights to their spouse’s body and were careful not to condone abuse or mistreatment. I can only hope that one day I’ll find a good Christian man who really wants mutual submission. A man who understands that sex is the marriage sacrament. A man who would honor me and protect my heart and love me as he loves himself. For now, I’m doing what I can to be friends with my husband and to deal with what I’ve chosen. Until I just can’t anymore. Which will likely be sooner not later. As for the magical wizard in the sky (I wish people didn’t still have this image of God), I didn’t become a Christian until I understood that God is an energy. We happen to use the pronoun He, but God is not a person or an angel or a magician and has no gender. He (pronoun used for convenience and in accordance with tradition) is the Source and the Sustainer of all things. He is self-existing, infinite, simple, immaterial, spaceless, timeless, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, immutable, holy, and personal. (Credit to Frank Turek, Christian apologist.) Once I understood this about the Christian God, and because it resonated with everything I already believed about God, I became a Christian. It’s interesting to me that in this day and age, when it is unacceptable to deride anyone for their race, sexuality, gender preference, and most religious preferences, it still seems socially acceptable to bash Christians or poke fun at their faith. It’s just something I’ve noticed. I often stay closeted in my faith for that very reason. I’m beginning to out myself more as I become better versed in scripture and stronger in my faith. Thanks again for the article. If your wife is deeply convicted, maybe it will soften her heart. |
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Post by lwoetin on Nov 10, 2017 0:49:01 GMT -5
I'm fascinated by the writings of the early church. I need to read the New Testament more. I have several that just sit on the bookshelf. I didn't think it was encouraging this much sex. I did talk to a priest recently and he encouraged having sex even to the age of 80. I will encourage my wife to talk to a priest about our sex life. Ours may be vanilla but I can enjoy the classic flavor until I die. |
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Post by lwoetin on Nov 10, 2017 1:35:14 GMT -5
Well-written and scripturally-supported article. Thank you for sharing. They’ve done a nice job pointing out the equality of men and women in their rights to their spouse’s body and were careful not to condone abuse or mistreatment. I can only hope that one day I’ll find a good Christian man who really wants mutual submission. A man who understands that sex is the marriage sacrament. A man who would honor me and protect my heart and love me as he loves himself. For now, I’m doing what I can to be friends with my husband and to deal with what I’ve chosen. Until I just can’t anymore. Which will likely be sooner not later. As for the magical wizard in the sky (I wish people didn’t still have this image of God), I didn’t become a Christian until I understood that God is an energy. We happen to use the pronoun He, but God is not a person or an angel or a magician and has no gender. He (pronoun used for convenience and in accordance with tradition) is the Source and the Sustainer of all things. He is self-existing, infinite, simple, immaterial, spaceless, timeless, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, immutable, holy, and personal. (Credit to Frank Turek, Christian apologist.) Once I understood this about the Christian God, and because it resonated with everything I already believed about God, I became a Christian. It’s interesting to me that in this day and age, when it is unacceptable to deride anyone for their race, sexuality, gender preference, and most religious preferences, it still seems socially acceptable to bash Christians or poke fun at their faith. It’s just something I’ve noticed. I often stay closeted in my faith for that very reason. I’m beginning to out myself more as I become better versed in scripture and stronger in my faith. Thanks again for the article. If your wife is deeply convicted, maybe it will soften her heart. I was watching the pastor and his wife talk about losing their daughter in the recent mass shooting. It's the ultimate test of faith in God to lose your child and still have faith. |
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Post by jim44444 on Nov 10, 2017 7:19:21 GMT -5
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Post by csl on Nov 10, 2017 12:58:08 GMT -5
I'm fascinated by the writings of the early church. I need to read the New Testament more. I have several that just sit on the bookshelf. I didn't think it was encouraging this much sex. I did talk to a priest recently and he encouraged having sex even to the age of 80. I will encourage my wife to talk to a priest about our sex life. Ours may be vanilla but I can enjoy the classic flavor until I die. This past January, I came across a book that has changed my entire perspective on my Christian faith. Sitting At The Feet Of Rabbi Jesus, by Ann Spangler and Lois Tverberg looks at the context of Jesus and the Gospels, and presents the eye-opening premise that Jesus was in the mold of Second Temple Period sages and rabbis, that He was a completely observant Jew. Since reading that book, I've followed up with Tverberg's second book, Walking In The Dust of Rabbi Jesus, an on-line video course on the life of Christ as a rabbi, and reading material from Tverberg's En-Gedi Resource Center website. lwoetin, I strongly advice you, if you are interesting in the New Testament period and context, that you begin with Tverberg's material. It's fascinating. (By the way, I've written a few posts about what I'm learning on my other blog, CSL On The Bible.) |
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Post by ironhamster on Nov 10, 2017 13:22:14 GMT -5
I am glad to see these thoughts getting out there and hopefully getting popular.
These articles will not fix my marriage, and I doubt anyone else's, but I hope it makes refusers think twice about trapping anyone in marriage in the first place.
My situation went from twenty-three years of sexless frustration to infrequent obligatory sex, and, frankly, both suck.
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Post by csl on Nov 12, 2017 8:54:27 GMT -5
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Post by h on Nov 12, 2017 9:03:59 GMT -5
Thank you csl and I know there are a few here who will appreciate it. |
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Post by hopingforachange on Nov 12, 2017 9:11:19 GMT -5
Most churches love to give the "Sex before marriage is a sin" but they fail to include anything about it being good, fun, and enjoyable after marriage.
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