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Post by carl on Oct 18, 2017 20:42:12 GMT -5
I think that a lot of the time people are shown up for their behaviours but attempting to keep someone from enjoying sex for a decade or more seems to go largely unnoticed to everyone else. As does the fact that someone is suffering. If you decide never to work again, enjoy too many drinks or start being promiscuous or flirting with people or acting in any other way which might make life hard for a partner people get to know about it soon enough one way or another. You would be lazy or a broke, a boozer or a tart. But refusers have anominity and privacy. Looking around, I wouldn’t recognise a refuser or even sadly a refused. I think the heart of the suffering at least lies in the disguise of the truth and that opening up as much as possible helps the refused get a hold of the situation.
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Post by northstarmom on Oct 18, 2017 20:47:02 GMT -5
The major reason refusers go unnoticed is that the refused collude with them in acting to the world like they are in a happy marriage. Some of the refused choose to use artificial insemination instead of even telling their doctors that they have never had sex with their spouse. When the refuser acts in public like their marriage has an incredible sexual bond, the refused go along with it. Even after being completely refused for years, the refused even share a bed with refusers just so that their marriage looks normal to others....
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Post by h on Oct 18, 2017 21:20:15 GMT -5
Yes northstarmom all that is true. I did so for 9 1/2 years out of shame that something must be wrong with me. Now that I've been here for a while, I don't plan on colluding any longer. I'm not shouting it from the rooftops but I'm also not perpetuating the lies like I used to. I think many refused people are too embarrassed to be honest about it. That's why we collude for so long. At least, that's how it was for me. |
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Post by baza on Oct 18, 2017 21:23:23 GMT -5
A refusive spouse gets as much (or little) exposure for their behaviour as *you* - their spouse - allow.
You can speak out - and let the cards fall where they may.
You can remain silent.
Your choice which.
If you - the refused spouse - go along with the charade, then you are just as culpable in the situation as the refuser.
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Post by M2G on Oct 19, 2017 5:14:10 GMT -5
A big part of it, is that people are conditioned (by religion or society or up-bringing) that sex is BAD, dirty, and never to be discussed unless you're some kind of pervert. The USA was founded by Puritans - so sexual abuse of the deprivation kind is a non-issue to the majority of the population. The idea of coming out as a victim, is stifled by the fear of shaming, ridicule, and the idea that it's the fault of the victim. 'nuff said.
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Post by northstarmom on Oct 19, 2017 6:45:54 GMT -5
A big part of becoming an independent adult is deciding what one's values are and then living life according to those values. I have found the older I get, the more I shed things that society, parents, religion taught me that don't make sense or fit for me. And the less I give a damn about what other people think. I also am much better at choosing to be close to people whose values are similar and avoiding or ignoring those who are judgmental or condescending. I saw my mother stay in a miserable marriage because she didn't want to be the object of gossip. I vowed when I was young not to be like her. That's why when I finally lost hope that my sm would become the kind of intimacy full marriage I wanted, I was able to divorce and hold my head up high.
I also have found that the more open I am about things that i'd been. taught were shameful -- a history of serious depression, suicide attempts, job losses, sexless marriage, son who had a major drug problem that resulted in jail, divorce, the more I draw to me compassionate people who relate and who support and cherish me exactly as I am.
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Post by aguywithneeds on Oct 19, 2017 8:37:13 GMT -5
This maybe the theme of many but not all. I'd like to explore a different perspective than the traditional sex is ikey and my religion says so. What about general lose of interest, being comfortable, or just plainly not caring. My marriage started off as 50 shades of grey and turned into the book of celibacy. Why is that, for me I have a half assed hold on why, but for many the answer eludes them, and the refused turns the blame on themselves rather than outward. And for many projecting the facade that were a happy healthy family is not only for that person's sanity, but also for the other members of the family mainly the children. No one wants to explain the reason Mommy and Daddy are fighting to a 5 year old,so avoiding the argument is the best option. I asked a question that was never answered, and I'll post a thread on it later today. I personally think that society accepts SM, look at most sitcoms, at the end of most the husband asks the wife if he's going to get lucky, she rejects him the crowd laughs and the credits run. So it's socially acceptable for a partner to deny sex and intamacy. So instead of looking at it as a bad thing it is the now looked at as normal. No one looks at Ray and says poor guy, wife is rejecting him, they laugh and say silly Ray better luck next time.
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Post by carl on Oct 19, 2017 9:25:29 GMT -5
This maybe the theme of many but not all. I'd like to explore a different perspective than the traditional sex is ikey and my religion says so. What about general lose of interest, being comfortable, or just plainly not caring. My marriage started off as 50 shades of grey and turned into the book of celibacy. Why is that, for me I have a half assed hold on why, but for many the answer eludes them, and the refused turns the blame on themselves rather than outward. And for many projecting the facade that were a happy healthy family is not only for that person's sanity, but also for the other members of the family mainly the children. No one wants to explain the reason Mommy and Daddy are fighting to a 5 year old,so avoiding the argument is the best option. I asked a question that was never answered, and I'll post a thread on it later today. I personally think that society accepts SM, look at most sitcoms, at the end of most the husband asks the wife if he's going to get lucky, she rejects him the crowd laughs and the credits run. So it's socially acceptable for a partner to deny sex and intamacy. So instead of looking at it as a bad thing it is the now looked at as normal. No one looks at Ray and says poor guy, wife is rejecting him, they laugh and say silly Ray better luck next time. I totally agree with all of that. Very well put. Poor old Ray, never mind. But I think that society respects that less now and would people be throwned on for looking for a lover - probably not. |
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Post by carl on Oct 19, 2017 9:31:37 GMT -5
A big part of it, is that people are conditioned (by religion or society or up-bringing) that sex is BAD, dirty, and never to be discussed unless you're some kind of pervert. The USA was founded by Puritans - so sexual abuse of the deprivation kind is a non-issue to the majority of the population. The idea of coming out as a victim, is stifled by the fear of shaming, ridicule, and the idea that it's the fault of the victim. 'nuff said. Let’s not forget, the refuser has sexual needs too, it is just that they are being met. It’s not like they are some higher form of life. I tend to mention now if I am chatting about my situation or marital status that things aren’t making me very happy at home. Surprising how people are so friendly ! |
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Post by northstarmom on Oct 19, 2017 9:48:49 GMT -5
"but also for the other members of the family mainly the children. No one wants to explain the reason Mommy and Daddy are fighting to a 5 year old,so avoiding the argument is the best option"
I wasn't saying fight. I'm saying don't participate in a fake show. If your spouse won't have sex with you, move into a separate bedroom if one is available. Don't keep sharing a bed because if bedrooms are separate friends and relatives will wonder why.
If there's no affection, sex or caring from your spouse, stop celebrating your anniversary and Valentine's Day. You wouldn't give your sister flowers or a romantic card or dinner for V Day. Don't bother doing that with your sister/roommate refuser.
If your refuser puts in a show outside of being in a sexy and romantic relationship don't participate in the fakery. If they participate in conversations with others and claim you both have a great sex life don't sit there and take it. Say something like, "yours must be with someone else since you haven't touched me in years." Turn down their pdas. Don't resentfully participate in a farce so you don't hurt their feelings. Stop letting them hurt your feelings by trying to get you to project the image of a sexy romantic couple.
None of this has anything to do with fighting. It's not going a long with the lie that your marriage is romantic. If it's basically a financial union or a partnership to raise kids,live your truth.
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Post by northstarmom on Oct 19, 2017 9:59:30 GMT -5
"So it's socially acceptable for a partner to deny sex and intimacy"
It's socially acceptable with people who hang out with people who watch shows in which the audience laughs when a husband is repeatedly denied sex.
Meanwhile, there are people like my friends and I who enjoy shows and movies in which people including older people have and enjoy sex. There are people who sleep in on Sunday because they are having sex, who send their kids to Granny's so they can have sex. There are couples who shop together at X Mart.
Once I decided that I was normal and healthy to want sex, I started hanging out with sex positive people instead of the more staid people I used to hang with. That's when I learned how different my marriage was from those of many other people. When I started sharing to these friends about my sm, they reassured me that I was normal, desirable and deserved better. They were the ones who told me that I was experiencing emotional abuse. I learned that even women friends who were 65, 70 and 80 were happily having sex with partners!
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Post by aguywithneeds on Oct 19, 2017 10:07:35 GMT -5
Totally agree, that's where I'm at now, I was just generalizing a reason. My wife has tried to initiate these conversations and I straight shut them down, I m not having this conversation at 4 in the afternoon on my front porch with kids playing, because at the end of the day, I don't touch kiss or accept your pdas because it's fake, and she wants to list out everything I'm doing wrong, but doesn't want to hear that she sucks at being a wife. I wouldn't do any of the things on the list, if she was productive, did chores, took care of herself, took her medicine and yes at the bottom of the list is enjoy having a intimate relationship with me.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 19, 2017 11:07:29 GMT -5
A big part of it, is that people are conditioned (by religion or society or up-bringing) that sex is BAD, dirty, and never to be discussed unless you're some kind of pervert. The USA was founded by Puritans - so sexual abuse of the deprivation kind is a non-issue to the majority of the population. The idea of coming out as a victim, is stifled by the fear of shaming, ridicule, and the idea that it's the fault of the victim. 'nuff said. 'nuff said? I don't think so. I think if you polled the people in this group, you would likely find that most people here do not believe that sex is bad or dirty. And yet, most of us/them are complicit and even invested in maintaining the appearance of marriage. Deprivation of sex is not sexual abuse, even if it's unpleasant, unless one is starting with the premise that one is entitled to sex and that one owes sex, even to people who you don't want to fuck. You aren't a "victim of the crime of sexlessness." Sex is available - if not within the context of marriage. That means there is choice, agency. I think you are talking about the lack of empathy here, and it's right to focus on that - but on both sides of it. Empathizing with the premise that one partner doesn't want to have sex with someone (for whatever reasons), balances the responsibilities in the equation, in which BOTH parties are invested in upholding the appearance of a marriage, while being celibate relationship. Regardless of the position of being trapped in a marriage to a person who you don't want to fuck, or being trapped in a marriage with someone who doesn't want to fuck you, both are still choosing it (choosing to stay sexless and in the marriage). I'm not suggesting this out of some sense of moral obligation; it's more about recognizing one's own sense of agency in upholding an unwanted situation. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2017 11:58:35 GMT -5
I think that a lot of the time people are shown up for their behaviours but attempting to keep someone from enjoying sex for a decade or more seems to go largely unnoticed to everyone else. As does the fact that someone is suffering. If you decide never to work again, enjoy too many drinks or start being promiscuous or flirting with people or acting in any other way which might make life hard for a partner people get to know about it soon enough one way or another. You would be lazy or a broke, a boozer or a tart. But refusers have anominity and privacy. Looking around, I wouldn’t recognise a refuser or even sadly a refused. I think the heart of the suffering at least lies in the disguise of the truth and that opening up as much as possible helps the refused get a hold of the situation. You are absolutely right. Refusers get to abuse their victims in private, and the victims feel like they are the ones at fault. The refused spouse feels that he/she is failing in some area or this would not be happening. The refusers are happy to reinforce this concept. Then if/when a refused spouse decides that enough is enough, he/she finally tells someone, or goes to counseling. Then the refused spouse is questioned about whether he/she is being the best spouse he/she can be. So the refused spouse's ego takes another hit there. It can take YEARS for the refused spouse to realize that he/she is not the source of the issue. This is why it is so nice to have a forum like this. The refused spouse can realize that he/she is not alone. I spent years thinking that I was the only one in this situation. |
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Post by northstarmom on Oct 19, 2017 12:08:06 GMT -5
I believe completely depriving one's sexually willing spouse of sex is emotional abuse if one is sexually able and in a monagamous relationship. One could at least give a hand job, watch a spouse masturbate or give permission to outsource. Some refusers even forbid their partners from masturbating. That's emotional abuse.
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