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Be Present
Sept 8, 2017 15:40:10 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by northstarmom on Sept 8, 2017 15:40:10 GMT -5
"So, contrary to the other article's comment, in that context dating *is* a sales job for guys. We're in the position of trying to make the cut. "How can I gain and hold her attention / make myself seem interesting before she sounds the buzzer?" This could contribute a lot to the behavior you see (poor conversation skills) and bleed into general conversation style."
Viewing dating as only a sales job to me reflects some desperation. Dating is figuring out if you and another person are good fits for each other. This means you have to reveal yourself so they know if you are a good fit for them. You also have to learn about them so you know if they are a good fit for you.
I have a male friend who was so desperate for a partner that he sent personal messages to every single woman in our area on OK Cupid. When I asked him how he could possibly be interested in all of those women, he said his criteria was he'd take any woman who would take him.
He was always trying to prove his worthiness even with women friends and male friends. His conversations were only about himself.
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Be Present
Sept 8, 2017 16:11:52 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by DryCreek on Sept 8, 2017 16:11:52 GMT -5
Viewing dating as only a sales job to me reflects some desperation. Dating is figuring out if you and another person are good fits for each other. Absolutely... If one were being unselective like your friend ("pitching" yourself to any "buyer"), it's surely an act of desperation. But it's still possible to have the "sales" dynamic even if you're focused on a single person. Point being that guys are conditioned that they need to be "interesting". Speaking broadly, women have no shortage of men who are "interested"; simply showing interest in a woman is not significant enough for a guy to make the cut. I agree that intelligent dating requires a 2-way dialog. My point is that in an effort to get that far, guys get stuck in a monologue trying to be interesting enough to get the ball rolling. And I'm sure a lot of guys fail to make the transition to 2-way discussion. Certainly, it should get there before the first discussion gets very deep, but guys have a deserved reputation for being socially challenged. Not unlike good penmanship and social graces, conversational skills aren't something that's been taught at any level in a long time. So, guys are left to learn from their element, which is usually talking with other guys - which is often about relating stories or opinions; a "push" style of dialog vs push-pull". It's a stereotype, for sure, but if the shoe fits... |
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Post by northstarmom on Sept 8, 2017 16:28:13 GMT -5
"agree that intelligent dating requires a 2-way dialog. My point is that in an effort to get that far, guys get stuck in a monologue trying to be interesting enough to get the ball rolling. And I'm sure a lot of guys fail to make the transition to 2-way discussion. Certainly, it should get there before the first discussion gets very deep, but guys have a deserved reputation for being socially challenged.
Not unlike good penmanship and social graces, conversational skills aren't something that's been taught at any level in a long time. So, guys are left to learn from their element, which is usually talking with other guys - which is often about relating stories or opinions; a "push" style of dialog vs push-pull". It's a stereotype, for sure, but if the shoe fits..."
All makes sense. It also makes lots of sense for men returning to dating to learn conversational skills. If a man sees himself in the men I and other women described who were all talk while demonstrating no interest in learning about their date's life, the comments here mean you will up your chances of getting a partner or getting laid by asking the woman questions about herself.
You probably no longer are casting your net for women in their teens or early twenties who may still think their own role on a date is to just be all ears.
Time to up your game or be counted out.
The discussion on this thread is a rare chance for men to learn about dating from the perspective of women who like men and also like sex.
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Post by greatcoastal on Sept 8, 2017 20:33:20 GMT -5
My latest experiences have been about talking divorce with other women. Comparing stories,and going one of two ways. Either "solving problems" -which guys tend to do when a woman claims "I just need someone to listen and understand". Or receiving a bunch of "understanding" by asking me more and more questions. Deeper questions. Like how each of the 6 teens is handling it. Or what my future plans are. When your having these kinds of conversations it gets difficult to keep saying, "but what about you?"
It almost needs a different setting, another day, or a big change in the conversation. That can look like your avoiding or lying about the whole thing.
What would be helpful to hear is that you can have this dialogue as much as needed, and still have plenty of happy conversations getting
to know each other.
Am I describing another one of these phases to go through, on the road to divorce recovery? If so I don't think it has to be done entirly on your own without any kind of relationships, or that they all have to be strictly surface until you barely want to mention it years from now.
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 8, 2017 20:35:08 GMT -5
I think you're onto something DC, but a good salesman should recognize people don't trust salesmen. You've got to dig deeper than the traditional sales pitch. In my industry, relationships drive sales, not pitches. We only let the "pitchers" through the door because they bring food. Oh, no, that is definitely "bad selling". ;-) Some guys manage to "seal the deal" without it, and others in spite of it. I think you're right that food (alcohol?) improves the odds for poor technique, which might explain how the species has managed to procreate in spite of itself. |
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Post by northstarmom on Sept 8, 2017 21:13:48 GMT -5
"Am I describing another one of these phases to go through, on the road to divorce recovery? If so I don't think it has to be done entirly on your own without any kind of relationships, or that they all have to be strictly surface until you barely want to mention it years from now."
I saved such conversations for women friends who'd been through divorce, not prospective dates. I wanted dates to be moving on not looking back.
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