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Post by Caris on Sept 8, 2017 6:33:48 GMT -5
This is good advice for anyone, in any relationship. What Tony Robbins says at 7:30 is probably the biggest emotional/psychological deal breaker for me in any future relationship. A guy who is not "present" with me emits lack of interest, and alienates me from him. A guy I'm not that attracted to, but is fully present with me, may very well win my heart.
I think this was the problem with my "crush" who I am extremely attracted to, and even though we had so much in common to talk about, I felt he wasn't with "ME," he was enjoying our conversations because he found someone on the same page as him, but he was more interested in doing the talking than listening, which left me feeling flat, and like he wasn't interested in me as a person.
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Post by northstarmom on Sept 8, 2017 8:09:27 GMT -5
"I felt he wasn't with "ME," he was enjoying our conversations because he found someone on the same page as him, but he was more interested in doing the talking than listening, which left me feeling flat, and like he wasn't interested in me "
Yes! I remember going to a Meetup for middle aged and older singles when I was single and looking. It was at a woman friend's house decorated with art she had done. Every woman noticed the art and asked her about it. Not one man did.
I talked to women and men. The women expressed interest in me as I did in them. We each asked each other getting to know you questions.
The men just yammered about themselves.
Finally a man suggested that the party move to a microbrewery. All the men left. The women were invited but stayed and continued getting to know each other. We also commented how the men seemed to have viewed the occasion as a time to attract women by talking about themselves. It didn't cross their minds that women are arrracted to men who seem interested in the women not just themselves.
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Post by Caris on Sept 8, 2017 10:15:02 GMT -5
northstarmom, You hit the nail on the head. Many men seem to forget there are two people in the conversation. They yammer on about themselves, or talk about current events, and love to answer questions we ask so they can talk some more. This was the problem with my crush. I would ask him questions about his life, his thoughts, and experiences, related to the topic of conversation, and he hardly asked me anything about myself. This left me feeling "flat," like there was something missing, which happened to be interest in me.
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Post by WindSister on Sept 8, 2017 11:07:23 GMT -5
Not being critical, but just stating that a lot of men feel the same way about women. In the "Naked Dating" book club I ran for 5 weeks back in 2013 it was full of 50-70 women AND men. The conversations were enlightening (much as they are here on this site as well). So, it's not a gender-specific problem. Men have the same complaints women have.
It's a matter of "fitting."
The men who are not into me are not assholes. And I am not a bitch for not being into a certain man.
We either "fit" or we don't.
Anyway, yes, I loved this message even though I have been one to resist Tony Robbins based on superficial reasons I suppose, because I liked this message. A lot.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Sept 8, 2017 11:28:54 GMT -5
This is a good conversation...carry on.
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Post by northstarmom on Sept 8, 2017 11:31:30 GMT -5
"All men who are not into me are not assholes. And I am not a bitch for not being into a certain man. "
To clarify just in case I've left a wrong impression. The men talking about themselves were trying to make a good impression. They might have even considered themselves to be flirting or being a good conversationalist. My point is that too many men think that the way to connect with a woman, even for light social conversation, is to talk about themselves instead of also showing some interest in her life. They treat women like all women are just there to be the man's audience.
I am sick of this and am still working at breaking myself of just nodding and smiling while a man yammers about himself. Was in that situation again last night. Am traveling out of the country with my partner and had dinner last night with some Americans who lived there. The man on my left was delighted to talk about his life, but asked me only one question about mine -- where I am from. 7/8 of the conversation was about him.
All reminds me of my husband who during all of my marriage would always tell me in detail about his day. I would ask him about his day and he would respond but never ask about mine, which demonstrated his lack of interest even when I was calling in from a business trip. Toward the end of my marriage, I asked him why he never asked about my day. He said he knew about it via FB. We all know FB didn't even exist when we got together in 1976 nor does anyone post everything on FB.
So, I agree with Caris that I will never again date a man who only talks about himself. Ugh. Such men should adopt dogs not try to date.
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Post by shamwow on Sept 8, 2017 11:45:23 GMT -5
"I felt he wasn't with "ME," he was enjoying our conversations because he found someone on the same page as him, but he was more interested in doing the talking than listening, which left me feeling flat, and like he wasn't interested in me " Yes! I remember going to a Meetup for middle aged and older singles when I was single and looking. It was at a woman friend's house decorated with art she had done. Every woman noticed the art and asked her about it. Not one man did. I talked to women and men. The women expressed interest in me as I did in them. We each asked each other getting to know you questions. The men just yammered about themselves. Finally a man suggested that the party move to a microbrewery. All the men left. The women were invited but stayed and continued getting to know each other. We also commented how the men seemed to have viewed the occasion as a time to attract women by talking about themselves. It didn't cross their minds that women are arrracted to men who seem interested in the women not just themselves. Do you think this has anything to do with the fact that (in general) in our culture, men are taught and conditioned (rightly or wrongly) to be actively taking charge and women are taught and conditioned (rightly or wrongly) to be more emphatic? Men talk about themselves in a conversation (actively taking charge) and women tend to listen more (being emphatic). Seems to me that the oddity is the man who is the great listener or the lady who who is a great talker about themselves. Now, I'm sure I'm going to catch some shit for playing into gender stereotypes here, but often stereotypes exist because of an element of truth. I'm not saying men are better and women are worse (as far as being decent human beings, I actually think the opposite tends to be true). I'm saying that men and women are different. It is one of the really nice things about interacting with the opposite sex. It shouldn't be a surprise they behave differently...you know, the way they have been taught to. |
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Be Present
Sept 8, 2017 11:58:20 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by northstarmom on Sept 8, 2017 11:58:20 GMT -5
Taking charge doesn't mean being the center of attention all the time. One can take charge by drawing out a shy person and thus keeping a conversation from being one sided.
A man who thinks he has to be on and talking all the time is not my kind of man even for friendship. I feel the same about women who talk only about themselves. I've encountered more men than women like that, however.
Conversation should be shared not a monologue.
And if a man is the gender stereotype, he's not my kind of guy for dates or friendship. I have no interest in being cast as the brainless little woman who cooks, cleans and listens to men pontificating.
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Post by greatcoastal on Sept 8, 2017 11:59:50 GMT -5
I'd like to offer a different perspective on this. not right or wrong just "is"!". When I meet another woman -especially now during divorce and SM- I get asked questions. Sometimes those questions are like a test. You need to explain the situation. Who is the Narcissist, the manipulative controller, and who was the passive victim. They might relate very well or might not. This also brings on more questions. If your knowledgeable about the subject, you might be enlightening them.
The problem arises when every question is followed up with deeper questions. Some ladies are very good at that. Like they can't help it. Then neither of you realize who's been asking questions, and who's been answering. Now is that person to blame for asking to many questions or for answering to many questions? Then it hits me. "wait!!" What about you? I want to know about you? I want to ask you questions. I want to change the subject. I want to move on to lighter happier topics!
When this happens I sure hope I don't get written off as being all about me and not caring or concerned about them. Maybe it takes another get together, or more conversations? Meanwhile being aware of those red flags?
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Post by WindSister on Sept 8, 2017 12:03:29 GMT -5
Oh, I know the type you speak of, Northstarmom. I am just saying men meet women like that, too. I heard a lot of complaints from men about women who would stare at their phones, talk about their kids, etc. but never ask about his kids, etc. I am just saying it's not always gender specific, but more of a personality type found in both sexes. Sorry for getting sidetracked on that point, it likely doesn't mean anything anyway, I just picky on the gender detailing.
Some people are just really bad at connecting. We, coming from a SM, do not want that kind of a person.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Sept 8, 2017 12:04:58 GMT -5
So many good points all around. I was just going to sit idlly by and enjoy it, but its hard to keep my fingers from the keyboard. I think shamwow is on to something significant. And that is how our programming and hardwiring affect our social interactions. Not just along gender lines, but cultural, regional and many other dimensions. To cite a cultural twist, as a latino man with strong latino influence growing up, wooing and seducing females was both overtly and inconspicuously encouraged as a right of passage. Well I grew up in a multicultural north american city where the dating norms were different than what was encouraged in my social surroundings. What I found when I was single is that while certain women appreciated and played along with the seduction, there was also a subgroup that found it offensive and in some cases they even found it comical and were dismissive of my mode of flirtation. All good fun of course. "I felt he wasn't with "ME," he was enjoying our conversations because he found someone on the same page as him, but he was more interested in doing the talking than listening, which left me feeling flat, and like he wasn't interested in me " Yes! I remember going to a Meetup for middle aged and older singles when I was single and looking. It was at a woman friend's house decorated with art she had done. Every woman noticed the art and asked her about it. Not one man did. I talked to women and men. The women expressed interest in me as I did in them. We each asked each other getting to know you questions. The men just yammered about themselves. Finally a man suggested that the party move to a microbrewery. All the men left. The women were invited but stayed and continued getting to know each other. We also commented how the men seemed to have viewed the occasion as a time to attract women by talking about themselves. It didn't cross their minds that women are arrracted to men who seem interested in the women not just themselves. Do you think this has anything to do with the fact that (in general) in our culture, men are taught and conditioned (rightly or wrongly) to be actively taking charge and women are taught and conditioned (rightly or wrongly) to be more emphatic? Men talk about themselves in a conversation (actively taking charge) and women tend to listen more (being emphatic). Seems to me that the oddity is the man who is the great listener or the lady who who is a great talker about themselves. Now, I'm sure I'm going to catch some shit for playing into gender stereotypes here, but often stereotypes exist because of an element of truth. I'm not saying men are better and women are worse (as far as being decent human beings, I actually think the opposite tends to be true). I'm saying that men and women are different. It is one of the really nice things about interacting with the opposite sex. It shouldn't be a surprise they behave differently...you know, the way they have been taught to. |
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Post by WindSister on Sept 8, 2017 12:11:57 GMT -5
I'd like to offer a different perspective on this. not right or wrong just "is"!". When I meet another woman -especially now during divorce and SM- I get asked questions. Sometimes those questions are like a test. You need to explain the situation. Who is the Narcissist, the manipulative controller, and who was the passive victim. They might relate very well or might not. This also brings on more questions. If your knowledgeable about the subject, you might be enlightening them. The problem arises when every question is followed up with deeper questions. Some ladies are very good at that. Like they can't help it. Then neither of you realize who's been asking questions, and who's been answering. Now is that person to blame for asking to many questions or for answering to many questions? Then it hits me. "wait!!" What about you? I want to know about you? I want to ask you questions. I want to change the subject. I want to move on to lighter happier topics! When this happens I sure hope I don't get written off as being all about me and not caring or concerned about them. Maybe it takes another get together, or more conversations? Meanwhile being aware of those red flags? Nerves could be at play -- she feels she needs to ask questions to keep you engaged? It's great you stop and ask her questions. But in the end, two people either jive or they don't. After my divorce over a two year time I met over 50 some men and had a million great conversations. None come close to how I connected with my now-husband. We effortlessly connected, games ceased, no need for guessing, second-guessing, etc. Just freedom to be me with all my quirks and vice versa. The things about me other men would run from he embraces as a part of me and vice versa. It was a HELL YES. We were present for each other and still are, we have a shared VISION (Tony Robbins brings that up in his video) for our relationship and we both actively work it. If there are games, ignored texts, doubt, one giving more than the other, gut feelings that say "no", etc. then it's a no.... they aren't an asshole, but eh, move on or maybe keep the friendship but with eyes open and keep looking. When you know, you know. Sounds vague, I know. If he/she is not really into you, you will feel it. Like Caris states, you will feel ignored, not enough, hard to love, too much or too little. |
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Post by northstarmom on Sept 8, 2017 12:13:39 GMT -5
" Sometimes those questions are like a test. You need to explain the situation. Who is the Narcissist, the manipulative controller, and who was the passive victim. "
I asked a few questions to find out if a man was still bitter and angry about past relationships. I wanted a man who had learned about himself and had moved on. I wanted someone who would not vilify his past partners but felt that even if a relationship ended badly, there had been good things in it even if those good things were a better understanding of who is a good fit for him.
If a man started telling me details about how absolutely horrible his ex was, that would have been a red flag that he still had too much bitterness to be ready for a relationship with me. My post sm partner told me on our third or so date that he had once been engaged but his lover ran off to Bali with another man. He told me this in response to my asking about his previous relationships. He wasn't tearful or angry when he said it not did he offer lots of details. I could see he was over that heartbreak so I considered him as ok for me to continue to date.
I wanted to avoid a man who was still angry at an ex. I knew such a man might take out his anger and hurt on me. I did not want to get stuck trying to heal a man.
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Post by northstarmom on Sept 8, 2017 12:23:48 GMT -5
"Sometimes those questions are like a test. You need to explain the situation. Who is the Narcissist, the manipulative controller, and who was the passive victim. "
I fear that telling a prospective 0arynet that one was with a narcissist would attract other narcissists because one has broadcast how much bad behavior one was willing to take. A genuinely good potential partner might fear you only welcome bad guys. I have a woman friend who tells everyone details about her failed relationships. Despite her stated unhappiness with such men, she repeatedly ends up with such men. One good guy I know who was interested in her says he gave up pursuing her because of her constant @he done me wrong" stories. Those were about most people she encountered, not just her exes.
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Post by shamwow on Sept 8, 2017 12:26:50 GMT -5
" Sometimes those questions are like a test. You need to explain the situation. Who is the Narcissist, the manipulative controller, and who was the passive victim. " I asked a few questions to find out if a man was still bitter and angry about past relationships. I wanted a man who had learned about himself and had moved on. I wanted someone who would not vilify his past partners but felt that even if a relationship ended badly, there had been good things in it even if those good things were a better understanding of who is a good fit for him. If a man started telling me details about how absolutely horrible his ex was, that would have been a red flag that he still had too much bitterness to be ready for a relationship with me. My post sm partner told me on our third or so date that he had once been engaged but his lover ran off to Bali with another man. He told me this in response to my asking about his previous relationships. He wasn't tearful or angry when he said it not did he offer lots of details. I could see he was over that heartbreak so I considered him as ok for me to continue to date. I wanted to avoid a man who was still angry at an ex. I knew such a man might take out his anger and hurt on me. I did not want to get stuck trying to heal a man. God, if there is one thing I've learned in this entire mess is that you cannot heal another person (man or woman). You are extremely fortunate if you are able to heal yourself. That's where I try to focus my attention on nowadays. |
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