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Be Present
Sept 8, 2017 12:31:59 GMT -5
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Post by Caris on Sept 8, 2017 12:31:59 GMT -5
northstarmom, "I wanted to avoid a man who was still angry at an ex. I knew such a man might take out his anger and hurt on me. I did not want to get stuck trying to heal a man." I believe this is why my refuser was punishing me. Yes, he was punishing me because he told me after 5-years of marriage that he was punishing me, but to this day, I don't know why. I suspect it had to do with his first marriage. He came home from work one day to find her gone with all the furniture. He was devastated. Now in retrospect, I think he was projecting his anger and pain onto me, as though I was her, and he was going to make me suffer for it.
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Be Present
Sept 8, 2017 12:37:43 GMT -5
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Post by Caris on Sept 8, 2017 12:37:43 GMT -5
Not being critical, but just stating that a lot of men feel the same way about women. In the "Naked Dating" book club I ran for 5 weeks back in 2013 it was full of 50-70 women AND men. The conversations were enlightening (much as they are here on this site as well). So, it's not a gender-specific problem. Men have the same complaints women have. It's a matter of "fitting." The men who are not into me are not assholes. And I am not a bitch for not being into a certain man. We either "fit" or we don't. Anyway, yes, I loved this message even though I have been one to resist Tony Robbins based on superficial reasons I suppose, because I liked this message. A lot. You are right, and this is why I said that it applies to anyone in any relationship. It can be friends, child-parent relationship, romantic, any kind where one is not "present" for the other, or others. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Sept 8, 2017 12:50:57 GMT -5
I wanted to avoid a man who was still angry at an ex. I knew such a man might take out his anger and hurt on me. I did not want to get stuck trying to heal a man. That is an opinion. Yours, which you are welcome to. Fortunately there is every one else on this sight. "I knew such a man might take his anger and hurt on me." Pure speculation, guessing, assuming, prejudging, prejudice, stereotyping. That will really limit your field, which you are welcome to do. Everyone has problems. problems need healing, some can be delayed, forgotton, or worked on. "problems" can be past, present, or future. Someone who is actively dealing with, and attempting to overcome such problems, is not someone I would call "stuck". Just my approach to present and future. Sort of like the cat 4 hurricane that's going to hit my house in the next two days. |
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Be Present
Sept 8, 2017 12:52:56 GMT -5
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Post by Caris on Sept 8, 2017 12:52:56 GMT -5
"I felt he wasn't with "ME," he was enjoying our conversations because he found someone on the same page as him, but he was more interested in doing the talking than listening, which left me feeling flat, and like he wasn't interested in me " Yes! I remember going to a Meetup for middle aged and older singles when I was single and looking. It was at a woman friend's house decorated with art she had done. Every woman noticed the art and asked her about it. Not one man did. I talked to women and men. The women expressed interest in me as I did in them. We each asked each other getting to know you questions. The men just yammered about themselves. Finally a man suggested that the party move to a microbrewery. All the men left. The women were invited but stayed and continued getting to know each other. We also commented how the men seemed to have viewed the occasion as a time to attract women by talking about themselves. It didn't cross their minds that women are arrracted to men who seem interested in the women not just themselves. Do you think this has anything to do with the fact that (in general) in our culture, men are taught and conditioned (rightly or wrongly) to be actively taking charge and women are taught and conditioned (rightly or wrongly) to be more emphatic? Men talk about themselves in a conversation (actively taking charge) and women tend to listen more (being emphatic). Seems to me that the oddity is the man who is the great listener or the lady who who is a great talker about themselves. Now, I'm sure I'm going to catch some shit for playing into gender stereotypes here, but often stereotypes exist because of an element of truth. I'm not saying men are better and women are worse (as far as being decent human beings, I actually think the opposite tends to be true). I'm saying that men and women are different. It is one of the really nice things about interacting with the opposite sex. It shouldn't be a surprise they behave differently...you know, the way they have been taught to. Men and women are different, and perhaps your explanation plays into it, but I do think that when a man is just getting to know a woman, as a potential romantic partner, he should naturally be interested in her. I'm trying to think back to how it was decades ago because I have no modern day examples apart from my refuser, and he didn't show any interest in me from the first few weeks of our marriage. My first husband was crazy about me. If I moved from one room to another, within minutes he'd be in that room too. If I went outside, he'd be outside with me within minutes. This is when we were courting. He was obviously interested in me because he could hardly stand to be away from me, but I don't think he was asking me a lot of questions. He wanted me. He wanted to marry me, so I don't think he cared about who I was. We were very young, and looking back, I'm sure it was a strong physical attraction that made him want me, so you may have a valid point there. I'm going to give it more thought. |
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Be Present
Sept 8, 2017 13:08:28 GMT -5
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Post by Caris on Sept 8, 2017 13:08:28 GMT -5
I wanted to avoid a man who was still angry at an ex. I knew such a man might take out his anger and hurt on me. I did not want to get stuck trying to heal a man. That is an opinion. Yours, which you are welcome to. Fortunately there is every one else on this sight. "I knew such a man might take his anger and hurt on me." Pure speculation, guessing, assuming, prejudging, prejudice, stereotyping. That will really limit your field, which you are welcome to do. Everyone has problems. problems need healing, some can be delayed, forgotton, or worked on. "problems" can be past, present, or future. Someone who is actively dealing with, and attempting to overcome such problems, is not someone I would call "stuck". Just my approach to present and future. Sort of like the cat 4 hurricane that's going to hit my house in the next two days. There are such men (and women). I can attest to this. Five-years into our marriage, I once more asked him why he didn't want to have sex with me, and he said, "I'm punishing you." I was stunned, and asked why he was punishing me because as far as I knew, I hadn't done anything to deserve such punishment. He wouldn't tell me. Over the years, I'd say something like, "don't you think 10-years, 12, 15, or however many years had passed is enough punishment?" He would just walk off and give me the silent treatment. At the same time, he'd be telling me to wait, and that he would want sex with me again, if only I'd be patient and not bug him about it. He dangled hope, but really he was punishing me, and playing a game, so yes, I do believe he was punishing his first wife through me, for what she did to him. It's called projection, and I don't blame anyone for staying clear of people with unresolved issues, and that includes myself. I think I'm a nice lady, but with all my unresolved baggage, I could make someone's life a misery with my insecurities, and that's the other side of the coin that keeps me away from men. |
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Post by northstarmom on Sept 8, 2017 13:23:39 GMT -5
"I knew such a man might take his anger and hurt on me." Pure speculation, guessing, assuming, prejudging, prejudice, stereotyping. That will really limit your field, which you are welcome to do."
It did limit my field to the right man for me, a guy who for 4 years has treated me like a queen. After dating in my 20s 2 men who expressed anger at their abusive/neglectful moms then treated me like crap, I learned to avoid men who emotionally or/an in great detail described bad past relationships with moms or girlfriends. The depth of emotion and volunteered detailed recitation of wrongs meant they hadn't yet healed sufficiently to see me as I am, not being like a woman who wronged them.
My partner has said he learned something good from each partner even the ones who did something awful like cheating. He has never labeled any with a word like, "bitch." When I describe my ex, i say we grew apart and he cheated but overall he was a good man and father and taught me many good things. I'm only sorry that when he fell out of love with me, he cheated and emotionally withdrew instead of ending the marriage
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Post by shamwow on Sept 8, 2017 13:27:09 GMT -5
That is an opinion. Yours, which you are welcome to. Fortunately there is every one else on this sight. "I knew such a man might take his anger and hurt on me." Pure speculation, guessing, assuming, prejudging, prejudice, stereotyping. That will really limit your field, which you are welcome to do. Everyone has problems. problems need healing, some can be delayed, forgotton, or worked on. "problems" can be past, present, or future. Someone who is actively dealing with, and attempting to overcome such problems, is not someone I would call "stuck". Just my approach to present and future. Sort of like the cat 4 hurricane that's going to hit my house in the next two days. There are such men (and women). I can attest to this. Five-years into our marriage, I once more asked him why he didn't want to have sex with me, and he said, "I'm punishing you." I was stunned, and asked why he was punishing me because as far as I knew, I hadn't done anything to deserve such punishment. He wouldn't tell me. Over the years, I'd say something like, "don't you think 10-years, 12, 15, or however many years had passed is enough punishment?" He would just walk off and give me the silent treatment. At the same time, he'd be telling me to wait, and that he would want sex with me again, if only I'd be patient and not bug him about it. He dangled hope, but really he was punishing me, and playing a game, so yes, I do believe he was punishing his first wife through me, for what she did to him. It's called projection, and I don't blame anyone for staying clear of people with unresolved issues, and that includes myself. I think I'm a nice lady, but with all my unresolved baggage, I could make someone's life a misery with my insecurities, and that's the other side of the coin that keeps me away from men. and I both have a ton of baggage. Over the past six months through patience and understanding on both our parts we have started to heal. Maybe the right approach isn't to wait until you have fully healed yourself before opening up to others. Perhaps is finding a person who may also have baggage (we all do) that compliments yours. That way you can work through it together. Every time we've hit a snag (and there have been a few) the fact we have worked through it together has healed each of us and at the same time brought us closer together. Waiting until you no longer have issues before taking chance simply means you will never take a chance. |
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Post by northstarmom on Sept 8, 2017 13:38:42 GMT -5
"Everyone has problems. problems need healing, some can be delayed, forgotton, or worked on. "problems" can be past, present, or future. Someone who is actively dealing with, and attempting to overcome such problems, is not someone I would call "stuck". Just my approach to present and future."
It's great if a person is actively working on their trauma. A person still carrying a lot of anger, grief, hurt would not be whom I'd choose to have a romantic relationship with..I realize everyone has baggage and has been hurt. There's a big difference between those who look back and without tears, great anger or bitterness see a lesson learned and those who still are very angry and hurt due to the wound's being very fresh like the loss just happened.
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Post by northstarmom on Sept 8, 2017 13:43:43 GMT -5
I like how Baz and Emma say they've were working individually on their baggage and would have continued whether or not they had partners. I do not think it's a good ideal to assume that finding the right partner is the method to heal. Doing so makes one's healing dependent on another person's actions.
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Be Present
Sept 8, 2017 14:24:21 GMT -5
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Post by Caris on Sept 8, 2017 14:24:21 GMT -5
There are such men (and women). I can attest to this. Five-years into our marriage, I once more asked him why he didn't want to have sex with me, and he said, "I'm punishing you." I was stunned, and asked why he was punishing me because as far as I knew, I hadn't done anything to deserve such punishment. He wouldn't tell me. Over the years, I'd say something like, "don't you think 10-years, 12, 15, or however many years had passed is enough punishment?" He would just walk off and give me the silent treatment. At the same time, he'd be telling me to wait, and that he would want sex with me again, if only I'd be patient and not bug him about it. He dangled hope, but really he was punishing me, and playing a game, so yes, I do believe he was punishing his first wife through me, for what she did to him. It's called projection, and I don't blame anyone for staying clear of people with unresolved issues, and that includes myself. I think I'm a nice lady, but with all my unresolved baggage, I could make someone's life a misery with my insecurities, and that's the other side of the coin that keeps me away from men. and I both have a ton of baggage. Over the past six months through patience and understanding on both our parts we have started to heal. Maybe the right approach isn't to wait until you have fully healed yourself before opening up to others. Perhaps is finding a person who may also have baggage (we all do) that compliments yours. That way you can work through it together. Every time we've hit a snag (and there have been a few) the fact we have worked through it together has healed each of us and at the same time brought us closer together. Waiting until you no longer have issues before taking chance simply means you will never take a chance. I get what you are saying. I really do. I agree that finding another person whose baggage compliments mine would probably be best, but where do you find such a person? It's hard enough to find a man who compliments my personality over my lifetime. I've only found two in 63-years, so adding that complimentary baggage on top of all the other necessities, to be a match is like a needle in a haystack. I can't think of anything more wonderful (except having my family reunited again) than finding a man who accepts me for who I am, and has the characteristics I require in a mate, and whom I can also love, and bring joy. That's a very tall order. |
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 8, 2017 14:45:25 GMT -5
Caris, I'll offer perhaps another explanation of the behavior you've seen... For Western culture of our era, we've been programmed that men are the pursuers and women are in the position of filtering suitors. So, contrary to the other article's comment, in that context dating *is* a sales job for guys. We're in the position of trying to make the cut. "How can I gain and hold her attention / make myself seem interesting before she sounds the buzzer?" This could contribute a lot to the behavior you see (poor conversation skills) and bleed into general conversation style. Although good conversation, asking probing / leading questions surrenders control of the conversation to another speaker, meaning they've lost the opportunity to be "interesting". And, frankly, a lot of people are better (more comfortable?) at talking than listening; in a lot of cases, the listening is only to find a window to start talking again and regain control. Goodness knows I've been guilty of it...
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Be Present
Sept 8, 2017 14:48:28 GMT -5
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Post by Caris on Sept 8, 2017 14:48:28 GMT -5
I like how Baz and Emma say they've were working individually on their baggage and would have continued whether or not they had partners. I do not think it's a good ideal to assume that finding the right partner is the method to heal. Doing so makes one's healing dependent on another person's actions. While I agree that individuals are required to do the work to heal themselves, I cannot stress enough how better healing takes place when one is loved and wanted. It's universal knowledge that from infants to grown ups, we all want to feel loved, wanted, and receive affection...even animals thrive when receiving affection and care. I can attest to this too, in my own life. I had a horrible childhood. I didn't know I carried baggage, but I did. When I met my soulmate, all the pain I carried into my 20s dissapeared. I felt loved and wanted for the first time in my life, and he told me that if he died, he'd be dying a happy man because I brought him an inner peace, he'd not felt before, and it was the same for me. Unfortunately, he did die 3-months later. The second time I felt that peace was more than 30-years later on EP. The pain I felt from the rejection of my husband was immense, but when I met my second soulmate, all that pain faded into the background. All the same problems existed, but I felt so loved, so wanted, and so understood that the problems were secondary, and I started smiling for the first time in decades. So much so that people commented that I was looking radiant and so happy. To me, love is medicine for my soul. Facing stresses of life is so much harder when you face them alone. When there is a loving partner to share each other's burdens it lightens the heaviest load. Others may think differently, and that's okay. Love is what nourishes me and makes me bloom. Unfortunately, I haven't had much of it in my life. |
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Post by Caris on Sept 8, 2017 14:52:41 GMT -5
Caris, I'll offer perhaps another explanation of the behavior you've seen... For Western culture of our era, we've been programmed that men are the pursuers and women are in the position of filtering suitors. So, contrary to the other article's comment, in that context dating *is* a sales job for guys. We're in the position of trying to make the cut. "How can I gain and hold her attention / make myself seem interesting before she sounds the buzzer?" This could contribute a lot to the behavior you see (poor conversation skills) and bleed into general conversation style. Although good conversation, asking probing / leading questions surrenders control of the conversation to another speaker, meaning they've lost the opportunity to be "interesting". And, frankly, a lot of people are better (more comfortable?) at talking than listening; in a lot of cases, the listening is only to find a window to start talking again and regain control. Goodness knows I've been guilty of it... I can understand this. It makes sense. I've done it myself. I like this quote, well, I'm paraphrasing: Try not to be interesting, but interested. I like this, but I don't think many have heard about it. |
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Post by Caris on Sept 8, 2017 15:11:37 GMT -5
" Sometimes those questions are like a test. You need to explain the situation. Who is the Narcissist, the manipulative controller, and who was the passive victim. " I asked a few questions to find out if a man was still bitter and angry about past relationships. I wanted a man who had learned about himself and had moved on. I wanted someone who would not vilify his past partners but felt that even if a relationship ended badly, there had been good things in it even if those good things were a better understanding of who is a good fit for him. If a man started telling me details about how absolutely horrible his ex was, that would have been a red flag that he still had too much bitterness to be ready for a relationship with me. My post sm partner told me on our third or so date that he had once been engaged but his lover ran off to Bali with another man. He told me this in response to my asking about his previous relationships. He wasn't tearful or angry when he said it not did he offer lots of details. I could see he was over that heartbreak so I considered him as ok for me to continue to date. I wanted to avoid a man who was still angry at an ex. I knew such a man might take out his anger and hurt on me. I did not want to get stuck trying to heal a man. God, if there is one thing I've learned in this entire mess is that you cannot heal another person (man or woman). You are extremely fortunate if you are able to heal yourself. That's where I try to focus my attention on nowadays. I agree and disagree. One must be responsible for their own healing, and that comes from self awareness, and recognizing the problem. However, recognizing that one has a problem...or many...is the first step. The process of healing can take years, or not at all, despite all the work one puts into it. The other part is having a loving partner who understands you. You said yourself that it's having ballofconfusion in your life that helps you. You help each other. If you were alone, you would still work on your healing, but having the love of an understanding partner is so much better than struggling through it alone. Actually, as a single person, one can only heal so much. It's well known that to test our fears, issues, problems, we have to go face them. How can anyone heal their trust issues if they never have a person they can learn to trust? It's in the practical application that one finds healing, but only if you find someone trustworthy. If you find someone who betrays you, then the trust you are trying to build is again destroyed, and at that point you've had enough. So, yes, one must keep doing the work, but one also needs trustworthy people in their lives to overcome trust issues, and that's what most of us have. Will I be rejected again, thereby reinforcing the conditioning that my refuser was right?. |
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Be Present
Sept 8, 2017 15:31:22 GMT -5
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Post by northstarmom on Sept 8, 2017 15:31:22 GMT -5
"Actually, as a single person, one can only heal so much. It's well known that to test our fears, issues, problems, we have to go face them. How can anyone heal their trust issues if they never have a person they can learn to trust? It's in the practical application that one finds healing, but only if you find someone trustworthy. If you find someone who betrays you, then the trust you are trying to build is again destroyed, and at that point you've had enough."
Idon't think that finding a trustworthy person is what heals you. That is putting your healing in another's hands. I think that having the wisdom to avoid or let go of persons who are toxic to you reflects healing. This means having the self esteem and confidence to be able to nurture yourself and live a healthful lifestyle even if that means living as a single because at the current time no one is available who'd be a good partner for you.
Whether or not an appropriate partner comes into your life is in part a matter of luck. One can be emotionally ready for such a partner and not find one. Caris and Smartkat could be inthst space now and that's why they don't accept romance. The men may even be healthy but not good fits for them. From what both women have posted, they seem to have had good reason to reject their suitors.
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