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Post by allworkandnoplay on Aug 27, 2017 0:55:10 GMT -5
I think I am broken… finally.
First, a little backstory: My wife and I were eating dinner out recently. We were discussing an acquaintance who is recently remarried about 3 years after his last wife died. He is around 70 and I basically said good for him.
She said, “If you ever die, I’m never going to date or anything.” She has a friend who has had no male companionship since her husband died about 12 years ago and has no interest in anything sexual – her hero.
I couldn’t help myself, so I said, “That says a lot…” She caught it immediately and said something to the effect that she has been sick and couldn’t (wouldn’t) have sex the last few weeks (which is true). Not wanting to escalate (especially in public), I quickly disengaged the conversation, but I really wanted to remind her that she hadn’t been sick the 4 months before, but anyway…
So, about a week later she announces to me that she is well enough to have sex now. Well, I’m not quite at the counter-refusal stage yet, so I agreed. Since I have been practicing active disengagement I have not once even asked for sex in well over a year. The few times we have had sex is because she initiated, every attempt about as lame as this one. But for the first time, I truly felt disconnected. Everything was fine as far as the mechanics go, but I had no emotional feeling in it. I almost felt like I was being dishonest.
I think I may have just come close to hitting bottom... I know it was just an attempt at a reset after our conversation from above, but I may have disengaged too much. I just feel dead inside.
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Post by baza on Aug 27, 2017 3:36:33 GMT -5
See if this makes any sense Brother allworkandnoplay In an ILIASM shithole, we keep telling ourselves that we still love our spouse, and that everything is great bar the sex. We keep telling ourselves this despite all the evidence to the contrary. It becomes ingrained. The spouses rejective behaviour gets discounted - or explained away - and any rare inclusive behaviour gets seized upon and given far more weight and gravitas than it deserves. And we keep telling ourselves that we love our spouse and everything is great bar the sex. Until, at some point, we might be moved to take a really good hard objective look at the facts of our situation and see it for what it is. And we might discover that our love toward our spouse has significantly diminished as the rejective behaviours have accrued over the years, and that the situation has become quite dysfunctional and there's not even some decent sex to offset the misery. This realisation might send you one of two ways. #1 - to start thinking seriously about getting out, or cheating or, more likely, #2 - to redouble ones efforts to convince oneself that ones love endures for the spouse and that everything is great bar the sex. Maybe Brother allworkandnoplay , you have maybe reached this fork in the road (?) It's not a good feeling. |
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Post by allworkandnoplay on Aug 27, 2017 15:38:16 GMT -5
See if this makes any sense Brother allworkandnoplay In an ILIASM shithole, we keep telling ourselves that we still love our spouse, and that everything is great bar the sex. We keep telling ourselves this despite all the evidence to the contrary. It becomes ingrained. The spouses rejective behaviour gets discounted - or explained away - and any rare inclusive behaviour gets seized upon and given far more weight and gravitas than it deserves. And we keep telling ourselves that we love our spouse and everything is great bar the sex. Until, at some point, we might be moved to take a really good hard objective look at the facts of our situation and see it for what it is. And we might discover that our love toward our spouse has significantly diminished as the rejective behaviours have accrued over the years, and that the situation has become quite dysfunctional and there's not even some decent sex to offset the misery. This realisation might send you one of two ways. #1 - to start thinking seriously about getting out, or cheating or, more likely, #2 - to redouble ones efforts to convince oneself that ones love endures for the spouse and that everything is great bar the sex. Maybe Brother allworkandnoplay , you have maybe reached this fork in the road (?) It's not a good feeling. Total sense. And no, not a good feeling. I have no illusions as to where I am, it just feels like whatever choice I make may place me in a worse position than I am already. It is part of what keeps me hesitant. I am, slowly but surely, working on getting myself to that place where the choices don't seem so... difficult. I guess I hadn't realized just how numb I have become. My mind helps me compartmentalize and rationalize to keep the daily grind at a relative "normal", but at the cost of my feelings, emotions, and even some empathy. I knew there would be some cost involved in disengagement, but I guess I didn't think it would be quite so costly. Ironically, there was some drama involving extended family recently. I basically said to let them make their own choices and I wasn't going to judge (or something to that effect). My wife just looked at me and said, "You're judging just like the rest of us, you're just disengaged so you don't give a shit what they do." She was absolutely correct and I thought it ironic she actually used the word "disengaged". Maybe I'm not as clever as I thought  Thanks, as always Baz. |
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Post by baza on Aug 27, 2017 17:20:18 GMT -5
Short term Brother allworkandnoplay you ARE likely to be in a worse position, whatever you choose - particularly should you choose the leaving option. Short term, that choice would actually raise your unhappiness level (apart from the ongoing pain of being in an ILIASM shithole you'd have the "extra" pain a divorce involves) The cheating option won't do anything about resolving your marital situation, but might provide some distractive pleasure from that ongoing pain. The staying option carries with it the ongoing pain for an indefinite period. Longer term, the staying option doesn't look so hot, as it involves you absorbing more pain for an indefinite period. Longer term the cheating option can cause more problems than it solves. Longer term, the leaving option has the big upside - of resolving the big insoluble problem of being in an ILIASM shithole. But of course that then creates a number of new - but resolvable problems - for you to manage. Personally, I think of this choice situation from a "short term pain - long term gain" perspective. Short term, they are all painful choices. Only one of them carries a long term gain. It's a very personal matter though, the above is how my choice went (and I've never regretted it) but that doesn't mean it is the "right" choice. There is no "right" choice. Only what is "right" for you. |
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Post by worksforme2 on Aug 27, 2017 20:17:55 GMT -5
There are a # of aspects in your post that had me reminiscing about some behaviors exhibited by my X. Their behaviors exhibited by most refusers. Endless reasons for no intimacy and definitely avoiding sex. Except when it is time to reset us. My X was as regular as a payout for a stock dividend. Every 3 months she would suddenly announce she was "in the mood". I guess this type of bold proclamation is supposed to put us "in the mood" straight away. It looks like the clock has just been "reset" for you.
The term "deal breaker" is often heard here. Disengagement is a behavior that often accompanies reaching or approaching deal breaker status. It should not come as a surprise that your W used the term disengaged. She probably knows you pretty well so the behavior you have been exhibiting the past few months has to have her radar up. How could she not notice? She knows you are deliberately moving away from her emotionally as well as physically. It's what one does as a means of self defense.
My X has stated several times she has no interest or desire to have sex ever again. Not with me or anyone else. A number of women she pals around with are also of this mindset. One of them just ended a 20 plus years relationship. They act as a cheering squad for each other when it comes to keeping their men on a pretty short leash with regard to sex. Only a few are still intimate with their partners. So your W bonding with another woman who dislikes sex doesn't come as a surprise to me.
You have a difficult path ahead. No one can say what your outcome will be for any path you choose. If you leave there is no guarantee of happiness. If you stay there is a statistically high probability of the continued feeling of being broken and all the unhappiness that felling brings with it. Unless you can come to terms with the absence of intimacy and love in your life. If you can do that, accept the void and be at peace with it, then staying can be the path that offers the most certainty. Everything else is uncertainty.
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Post by solitarysoul on Aug 27, 2017 21:02:18 GMT -5
Disengagement...one tool to keep the peace...to just keep on living...it's my tool of choice...I just worry about what I need to...deal with problems she brings to me...live my life...as I generally had no sex before, this is probably much easier for me than most others here. True, it doesn't solve the problem, but it seems to be something I can live with....just like when I was single... But it's not the solition many can live with... Many people might bounce of the walls...but I can live with it, hell, I got through my 20s as a virgin, when my hormones we're at hell of a lot stronger... I suspect it will probably only get easier for me.... But choice your path carefully....
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Post by ironhamster on Aug 27, 2017 21:18:16 GMT -5
My preference might be called "cheating" by society, but I don't look at it as cheating. It's just a logical response to her breaking the marriage vows by refusing. Once the rules have been broken by one party, it is hardly ethical to call the other the "cheater".
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Post by McRoomMate on Aug 28, 2017 0:46:11 GMT -5
A lot of very good posts already. Wow very good.
I will just ask does the Intimacy / Sex situation in your marriage ever going to really improve? How many years has it been like this?
At what point in time was the sex/intimacy satisfying and then how long since that point in time?
If applicable: Did the intimacy / sexlessness ever improve for a while since the first time it went bad? What it made it change at that point in time? How long did this renewed period last? Why did it get lost again?
If you look at this based on "available data" can you honestly hypothesize a wonderful passionate intimacy filled (and sex life) can return to your marriage?
From my own personal experience, I will share that I decided to "outsource" it was less than satisfying really. Cheating requires hiding and discretion and not the same thing ever in my experience as being in a fulfilling passionate primary relationship.
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Post by h on Aug 28, 2017 4:43:52 GMT -5
Disengagement...one tool to keep the peace...to just keep on living...it's my tool of choice...I just worry about what I need to...deal with problems she brings to me...live my life...as I generally had no sex before, this is probably much easier for me than most others here. True, it doesn't solve the problem, but it seems to be something I can live with....just like when I was single... But it's not the solition many can live with... Many people might bounce of the walls...but I can live with it, hell, I got through my 20s as a virgin, when my hormones we're at hell of a lot stronger... I suspect it will probably only get easier for me.... But choice your path carefully.... The only reason I got through my 20s as a virgin was because I was indoctrinated as a youth to believe horrible things would happen if I had sex before marriage and that waiting would be rewarded with an amazing sex life in marriage. I had hope for the future and lots of fear of the consequences of failure. I wish I didn't have the will power I had back then. My reward for all that self deprivation and restraint isn't much of a reward... |
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Post by solitarysoul on Aug 28, 2017 6:53:52 GMT -5
Disengagement...one tool to keep the peace...to just keep on living...it's my tool of choice...I just worry about what I need to...deal with problems she brings to me...live my life...as I generally had no sex before, this is probably much easier for me than most others here. True, it doesn't solve the problem, but it seems to be something I can live with....just like when I was single... But it's not the solition many can live with... Many people might bounce of the walls...but I can live with it, hell, I got through my 20s as a virgin, when my hormones we're at hell of a lot stronger... I suspect it will probably only get easier for me.... But choice your path carefully.... The only reason I got through my 20s as a virgin was because I was indoctrinated as a youth to believe horrible things would happen if I had sex before marriage and that waiting would be rewarded with an amazing sex life in marriage. I had hope for the future and lots of fear of the consequences of failure. I wish I didn't have the will power I had back then. My reward for all that self deprivation and restraint isn't much of a reward... For me it wasn't about fear or teachings, it was a total lack of opportunity. I couldn't get a date in HD or college...I guess that's why disengagement works for me and not for others... I have already been here. No sex, and no chance for it. |
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Post by snowman12345 on Aug 28, 2017 21:21:29 GMT -5
For me, it was a matter of getting out of my own head. I had to stop the self pity party and go looking. I wanted sex, I couldn't get it from the W anymore, so I went looking elsewhere.
You have to put yourself out there. If you're a religious person - go to group functions, volunteer somewhere, bar hop. Whatever trips your trigger. On line forums work too.
But then, all I wanted was sex, not a new relationship - that is not so hard, really it's not.
Another thought occurs to me; wouldn't it be great if both potential spouses had to attend a customer service class prior to marriage? I mean we are all each other's customers and service providers. If you want the customer to keep coming you have to give them what they want. And I don't mean just sex, I mean the day to day aspects of living with each other. Maybe this could be another thread - "quality assurance in the marriage". Oooh! I feel a book deal coming on!!!
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Post by allworkandnoplay on Aug 28, 2017 21:22:44 GMT -5
A lot of very good posts already. Wow very good. I will just ask does the Intimacy / Sex situation in your marriage ever going to really improve? How many years has it been like this? At what point in time was the sex/intimacy satisfying and then how long since that point in time? If applicable: Did the intimacy / sexlessness ever improve for a while since the first time it went bad? What it made it change at that point in time? How long did this renewed period last? Why did it get lost again? If you look at this based on "available data" can you honestly hypothesize a wonderful passionate intimacy filled (and sex life) can return to your marriage? From my own personal experience, I will share that I decided to "outsource" it was less than satisfying really. Cheating requires hiding and discretion and not the same thing ever in my experience as being in a fulfilling passionate primary relationship. Nutshell: Married young (me 20, her 21); Married 21 years; I honestly don't remember frequency early on; definite sexless last 14 years (clinical definition). I would occasionally get a reset period, but even those are getting less frequent. No I do not believe the intimacy will return. I have been told I am honest to a fault; I can hardly even tell a white lie. The closest I come to dishonesty is avoiding the conversation(s) at all cost so I don't have to outright lie (at least it keeps the peace). I could not outsource, for the honesty and for the fact that there is no way I could get away with it even if I tried. |
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Post by iceman on Aug 29, 2017 5:30:23 GMT -5
Dead inside ... i know the feeling well. After being constantly rejected by your wife you just lose your feelings toward her. it seems like I just snapped one day. Overnight I went from trying to figure out why we weren't having sex and actually trying to do anything to make it happen to just not caring about sex with my wife and, if I'm honest, don't care about her at all, at least romantically. We just exist together in the same house and raise our kids. That's it and it sucks. Refusers don't realize or just don't care about the damage they do to what should be the most important part of their life when the refuse ...
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Post by brian on Aug 29, 2017 5:32:31 GMT -5
A lot of very good posts already. Wow very good. I will just ask does the Intimacy / Sex situation in your marriage ever going to really improve? How many years has it been like this? At what point in time was the sex/intimacy satisfying and then how long since that point in time? If applicable: Did the intimacy / sexlessness ever improve for a while since the first time it went bad? What it made it change at that point in time? How long did this renewed period last? Why did it get lost again? If you look at this based on "available data" can you honestly hypothesize a wonderful passionate intimacy filled (and sex life) can return to your marriage? From my own personal experience, I will share that I decided to "outsource" it was less than satisfying really. Cheating requires hiding and discretion and not the same thing ever in my experience as being in a fulfilling passionate primary relationship. Nutshell: Married young (me 20, her 21); Married 21 years; I honestly don't remember frequency early on; definite sexless last 14 years (clinical definition). I would occasionally get a reset period, but even those are getting less frequent. No I do not believe the intimacy will return. I have been told I am honest to a fault; I can hardly even tell a white lie. The closest I come to dishonesty is avoiding the conversation(s) at all cost so I don't have to outright lie (at least it keeps the peace). I could not outsource, for the honesty and for the fact that there is no way I could get away with it even if I tried. Then tell her that you are going to look for physical intimacy elsewhere. Be upfront about it... your marriage is not providing you with the physical and mental stimulation that you require to be a happy, functioning adult and that if she is unwilling, then for the sake of your sanity you are going to have to find another outlet. What's the worst that can happen? Divorce? Isn't that where you are headed anyway? What's the best that can happen? You find a lover with your wife's full knowledge. And yes, that CAN happen. I have a friend (female) who is quite happy that her husband has a gf to take care of those "wifely duties" because she simply doesn't want to do so herself. My wife has given me an "every other month" free pass (I don't have a gf, ap, or an fwb though). I fully understand that she MIGHT take the opportunity to outsource herself, but I have told her that this door does NOT swing both ways and that I would never have even mentioned going outside the marriage if she was willing to be a fully engaged marriage partner. If she ever does, I'm pulling the trigger sooner than I was planning on doing. |
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Post by ironhamster on Aug 29, 2017 8:26:16 GMT -5
It's probably a good idea,just to tell her. I petitioned for an open marriage, and that was denied. It seems to follow the pattern that refusers want control. Giving her a choice gives her the power to keep that control. Telling her you are going to get what you need elsewhere will hurt her, but she'll know where she stands. Her only control left will be to put up with it or get a lawyer.
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