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Post by dinnaken on Aug 17, 2017 16:10:30 GMT -5
Hi @tooyoungtobeold This is a good question. It was more that things were 'comfortable' and sexless. The problem with describing these things is that it's only with hindsight that you can see the picture clearly. The marriage got off to a poor start there was very little sex, after the marriage my wife rejected me; at the time I remember feeling that my wife had a 'tick list' and that for her the marriage was little more than a 'to do' list. I characterised it as - I was looking for a life partner but she was looking for a lifestyle choice. As I've learned from here 'she wanted me there but she didn't want me' She was controlling and I suppose I just accepted it as my lot to begin with but my resentment and intolerance of her behaviour grew until I realised that I would leave when our child was old enough. As with northstarmom I realised one day that I'd had enough. But those last few years... dear God they were tough. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 16:51:51 GMT -5
My story (summarized elsewhere) is fairly simple. Not a horribly dysfunctional marriage, two people that mostly deal with each other honestly, no passion/intimacy or sex. I originally came here thinking I had crossed over into "definitely staying" which has lately just felt like the safe choice. We have "sex" (often MM in the last year) every 6-8 weeks and that's not the worst, at least it hasn't been years. But the general sexlessness won't change and I get that. So now that I get that...what now? So my questions are for those who have left. When did you know you needed a plan to end the marriage? How did you deal with fear of the unknown? I feel a bit like i'm at sea in a boat that's not sinking but won't get me to shore either. Do I dive in and swim for the shore or stay in the boat. For me, my last straw will not make any sense. It was a Facebook post on our 19th anniversary in which my ex said that she loved me. You're probably like WTF? But keep in mind that she had not told me she loved me unprompted in 12 years at that point. To have her put up this rosy public face? That was the straw. However, almost by definition, a straw that breaks the camel's back is almost trivial. In addition to the lack of affection, it was the realization I had been bait and switched over a 21 year period (including the bait part of the courtship). It was the realization that nothing was going to change because things were exactly as she wanted them. It was the complete inability of picturing us growing old together. It was the realization that we literally had nothing in common but the kids, an address, and our families. It was the knowledge I was actually running out the clock on my life, not living it. It was the fact that my marriage had led me into some really damn nasty coping mechanisms. How did I know I needed an exit plan? Well, I knew I needed to deal with my own issues first (poor coping mechanisms, really). That whole process took about a full year after I decided to divorce before uttering those words to my ex. I knew that announcing I want a divorce was a bell that could not be un-rung, and I needed to be ready. Now, during that year, I had to quit drinking, lose 50 pounds, get in shape, get my finances in order, spend as much time as humanly possible with my kids and be the dad my depression prevented me from being. Again, that all took time. How did I deal with the unknown? When I realized that death was the only way out of this mess (not in a suicidal way, but in a "here's what I have to look forward to"), just about any alternative looked better. At that point, friend, the unknown becomes a feature, not a bug. I've been out a little over a month at this point. Mentally, I've been moving towards being on my own for a year and a half now. I've stopped living the goddamn script society says I should. I'm not abandoning my responsibilities, but I am also not staying in a failed marriage because of what others may think. Right now, the script says that as a newly divorced guy, I should be off swiping my finger across Tinder looking to get some easy pussy. Instead, I'm dating an amazing woman who lives halfway across the country. If you can make the mental shift from what society expects you to do to what you want to (responsibly) do, it is amazing how much better life looks and what new possibilities appear. It may be that you will be happier staying in your marriage than leaving it. Only you can decide that. But make it your choice, not just following the "easy" path. Because if you follow the easy path, you are still making a choice by default. Good luck to you, brother. That makes perfect sense to me because I'm posing here due to an event this week. I originally came to this forum prior to this event because I was having the, "good Lord, now menopause is the excuse" moment AND I thought I had successfully coped with many years of a LL marriage fairly well. I thought younger people could benefit from my experience. What I wasn't prepared for was questioning everything. About a week ago, the weather up here in the northern hinterlands of the lower 50 states turned to shit. Overcast, cold, yuck. We moved here with our three children 5-years ago from the Pacific NW to be closer to family, better public education than where we were, and mostly because my wife just "had to get out" of the PNW. So, we made it happen. I landed a similar well paying position at a new University, sold our home (that I had built), bought property, moved a home (it's a midwest thing-no trees in the way), remodeled it, etc. In other words, rebuilt the infrastructure of our life. The move was successful, kids did well in school and are all launched into College. My wife and I worked very hard together to make such a move. Over the last summer, she has been making the occasional snide comments about "fat people". She's average and I'm overweight although there have been times when that was reversed. Then she makes two comments over a period of a few days about heavy drinkers with red noses. I sun burned my nose a while back....so is this also directed at me? Hmmm. Then the event occurs. This Tuesday we are sitting in our dining room, I'm about to leave for work and she looks outside at the bleak and just says, "I have to get out of here, you know I can't stay here any longer." and starts crying. WTH? We damn near killed ourselves getting here five years ago and now we're back to "have to get out"? We have talked about getting a condo or something in Arizona to escape the upper midwest winters once in a while so I asked her the relevant question, "You've been making fat comments, red nose comments and now want to get out. If you just want to be done with the marriage, you should just say so." She said she hadn't realized she had said those things and that she liked my appearance and it wasn't directed at me. We talked it out a little further with no big friction, just a better understanding of where she was but something in me has shifted, there was no discussion of what I might want. I'm the kind of person that will move heaven and earth if we're in this together. But, if we're not there for each other, what am I coping with SM for? Walkaway wife time? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 19:38:41 GMT -5
I'm sorry you're dealing with this, @tooyoungtobeold . Is your wife the type who is never content with what she has? Always looking for more, better, different? Is it possible that she, too, is unhappy in the marriage? Surely your unhappiness is palpable. (I know mine often is!) Maybe this is the opening of a door to some deep discussions?
In the end, I think leaving would boil down to taking a leap of faith, to being OK with possibly winding up alone, to trusting that there might be something better on the other side (or there might not be), to believing that the marriage has ceased to make you both better people. Only you can accurately assess those issues.
Have you ever done any counseling for yourself? I've found it to be very empowering in my situation. I highly recommend it. Get some good recommendations and go for it. Shed the light on this stuff. It's the only way it can be transformed.
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Post by baza on Aug 17, 2017 20:25:20 GMT -5
@tooyoungtobeold
Question #1 - "When did you know you needed a plan to end the marriage?"
Answer #1 - Various issues in my deal - in no particular order, financial irresponsibility, mental issues, sexual abandonment, alcohol abuse, erratic behaviour were in play and by 2005 I was pretty much convinced these issues were NOT going to improve (this was after 20 odd years of marriage) and I knew that at some point I'd need to leave that environment.
Question #2 - "How did you deal with fear of the unknown?"
I sought legal advice to establish how a divorce would shake out for me thus alleviating my fear based lack of information about this aspect.
I also started putting an exit strategy together (where would I live, how I would finance such a move, who might I look to for support etc etc etc) thus alleviating my (fear based) lack of knowledge about this aspect.
I started visualising what my life *could* look like.
I started making choices that would result in me moving toward from where I was to where I'd like to be.
I started withdrawing and relying on my spouse for less and less, emotionally distancing myself.
By 2007 I was pretty much "prepared" for a divorce, and was just waiting for an opportunity to end it - or for my unhappiness level to reach the tipping point.
That tipping point, and opportunity, arose at the same time - October 2009 - in the middle of an innocuous conversation that span out of control, and I was out in a couple of days.
My suggestion if you are interested in an opinion, is that seeing a lawyer and developing an exit strategy is a smart move. It will alleviate a certain amount of fear. And if you can alleviate your fear levels, you will make better choices than you otherwise might.
Legal advice and exit strategy does NOT commit you to anything.
BUT, if you have these things, and the situation worsens (as mine did) or your thinking changes, or an opportunity arises, you are "prepared", and that - having a viable alternative to staying in an ILIASM shithole - is a very comforting thing to keep in your pocket, whether you eventually use it or not.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 21:52:25 GMT -5
In my situation, Mr. Kat attributed his lack of interest in sex to medical problems. And he did have some medical problems.
But, not to the point where it would have been completely impossible for him to do anything sexual or physical. And, there were things that could have been done, to mitigate the medical problems.
For a couple of years, I did whatever I could think of to get him to do the things that would help his problems. Including backing off and shutting up about it, when he said I was bugging him about it. He would start something (physical therapy, medicine, whatever), but would not be consistent with it.
This was the last straw: one day just about 2 years ago, we were Talking About It™ for the ten thousandth time - and he said, "I'm trying as much as I'm going to."
IOW, things still weren't really right between us, but he was not going to put any more effort into improving things.
That was what did it for me.
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Post by orangepeel on Aug 18, 2017 1:35:09 GMT -5
I woke up one day and realized I'd rather risk loneliness as a single than remain lonely in marriage. I realized the most irritating thing in my life was my husband's presence. That's what I was afraid someone would say. It would take years for me to reach that point as our relationship is safe, stable, etc. I'm in exactly the same boat as you. I won't be leaving if things stay the same (i.e. If I stay delicately poised between being reasonably happy and reasonably unhappy). I place stability higher in my list of priorities than my now non-existent sex-life. I have chosen to stay from the stay, leave, outsource menu of three. I will own this decision and try not to let resentment leak in (my own personal challenge). |
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 18, 2017 6:53:51 GMT -5
"Right now, the script says that as a newly divorced guy, I should be off swiping my finger across Tinder looking to get some easy pussy. Instead, I'm dating an amazing woman who lives halfway across the country"
People here need to stop speaking as if there really is a society with unbreakable rules. For most, there is no such thing. There is no society that says how newly divorced men should act. So many people here quote "society's" rules when those so called rules are the sense they themselves make of the world. The men I know have tended to hide and heal after breakups not chase tail. Probably I also know men who chased random tail after divorce but I think that's a stupid thing to do at such a painful time so I don't view such behavior as expected.
So many people stay in miserable marriages due to what they think are society's rules. If they know people or religious institutions that shun divorcees, that's because those are the institutions and people they choose to cling to. The exceptions are that unfortunate Muslim woman from the Middle East who was in an arranged marriage in England in which her husband totally refused her. Her in laws kept her passport and locked her in her house. Even if she could escape and return home, she said divorced women had no chance of remarriage in her home country. Most here are trapped, however, only by their own minds.
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Post by baza on Aug 18, 2017 7:39:17 GMT -5
"Right now, the script says that as a newly divorced guy, I should be off swiping my finger across Tinder looking to get some easy pussy. Instead, I'm dating an amazing woman who lives halfway across the country" People here need to stop speaking as if there really is a society with unbreakable rules. For most, there is no such thing. There is no society that says how newly divorced men should act. So many people here quote "society's" rules when those so called rules are the sense they themselves make of the world. The men I know have tended to hide and heal after breakups not chase tail. Probably I also know men who chased random tail after divorce but I think that's a stupid thing to do at such a painful time so I don't view such behavior as expected. So many people stay in miserable marriages due to what they think are society's rules. If they know people or religious institutions that shun divorcees, that's because those are the institutions and people they choose to cling to. The exceptions are that unfortunate Muslim woman from the Middle East who was in an arranged marriage in England in which her husband totally refused her. Her in laws kept her passport and locked her in her house. Even if she could escape and return home, she said divorced women had no chance of remarriage in her home country. Most here are trapped, however, only by their own minds. In support of this point, I would offer this. If you are a member here, you are 1 out of 842 members of this community. This community, as far as I observe, believes you ought be able to divorce, and under certain conditions, cheat. Further, things like divorce are, in most jurisdictions, legal. Things like cheating are not illegal. These - legislated laws - are the legal acts of "the general societies views" by the elected governments we voted for. Busy bodies, the far right, the reliqous lobbys, the whacko's, the idiots, the uninformed may well have their own interpretations of what "the general society" *ought* to be, but it is the elected representatives who make the rules by enacting laws after we've elected them. The law says it is not a crime to cheat. The law says it's ok to divorce. There is no law saying you have to stay in a shithole marriage either. That, is societies view. The peoples voice. It has been saying that since 1975 in my jurisdiction. |
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Post by orangepeel on Aug 18, 2017 14:35:13 GMT -5
Quite right, northstar. It's not society's rules for spouses not to fuck their partners. But plenty don't, don't they?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 14:48:20 GMT -5
"Right now, the script says that as a newly divorced guy, I should be off swiping my finger across Tinder looking to get some easy pussy. Instead, I'm dating an amazing woman who lives halfway across the country" People here need to stop speaking as if there really is a society with unbreakable rules. For most, there is no such thing. There is no society that says how newly divorced men should act. So many people here quote "society's" rules when those so called rules are the sense they themselves make of the world. The men I know have tended to hide and heal after breakups not chase tail. Probably I also know men who chased random tail after divorce but I think that's a stupid thing to do at such a painful time so I don't view such behavior as expected. So many people stay in miserable marriages due to what they think are society's rules. If they know people or religious institutions that shun divorcees, that's because those are the institutions and people they choose to cling to. The exceptions are that unfortunate Muslim woman from the Middle East who was in an arranged marriage in England in which her husband totally refused her. Her in laws kept her passport and locked her in her house. Even if she could escape and return home, she said divorced women had no chance of remarriage in her home country. Most here are trapped, however, only by their own minds. In support of this point, I would offer this. If you are a member here, you are 1 out of 842 members of this community. This community, as far as I observe, believes you ought be able to divorce, and under certain conditions, cheat. Further, things like divorce are, in most jurisdictions, legal. Things like cheating are not illegal. These - legislated laws - are the legal acts of "the general societies views" by the elected governments we voted for. Busy bodies, the far right, the reliqous lobbys, the whacko's, the idiots, the uninformed may well have their own interpretations of what "the general society" *ought* to be, but it is the elected representatives who make the rules by enacting laws after we've elected them. The law says it is not a crime to cheat. The law says it's ok to divorce. There is no law saying you have to stay in a shithole marriage either. That, is societies view. The peoples voice. It has been saying that since 1975 in my jurisdiction. Many of these things may not be illegal but they do have real consequences. Have said that, I think most of us do recognize that we're generally in situations where the barriers to changing that situation are mostly imagined. |
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Post by ironhamster on Aug 18, 2017 14:59:33 GMT -5
I woke up one day and realized I'd rather risk loneliness as a single than remain lonely in marriage. I realized the most irritating thing in my life was my husband's presence. That's what I was afraid someone would say. It would take years for me to reach that point as our relationship is safe, stable, etc. I'm in a similar situation. Safe, stable, and unsatisfying. The failed affair on my part lit a fire under her. She's trying, but it's still far less frequent than I want, and pretty uninspiring, and this is as good as it's going to get. |
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Post by worksforme2 on Aug 18, 2017 15:30:35 GMT -5
My last hurrah was to propose a FWB for me to remove the pressure and aggravation for her of having to deal with me constantly trying to initiate some form of intimacy. She didn't much want any. At the 3rd discussion of a FWB near the end I stated I couldn't continue in the marriage as things were. At this point she stated she wanted to try to be sexually intimate more often. I thought "she gets it, she finally understands it's going to end if things don't change". And so we were very active for about 3 months. Then all of a sudden she reverted to refusing, avoiding and finding reasons not to be close. I knew then it was never going to change for the better. So I sought out a couple attorneys and started putting together an exit plan.
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Post by shamwow on Aug 18, 2017 16:13:08 GMT -5
The last straw was when I realized this will never be fixed. ILIASM helped me get there about 2 months ago, but I should have realized this a long time ago. My exit strategy will probably take several years due to the kids. I am concerned about my short but documented mental health file working against me in a custody battle. I am concerned when the lawyers get involved she will have no mercy. I am concerned if I ask her about custody now, I will open Pandora's box, lose control of my exit timeline, and perhaps lose some advantage in court. I am very concerned about leaving my kids and only seeing them 4.3 days a month, or less. One thing I am NOT concerned about is missing my ex. I am just beginning to research lawyers. Yet to find one that advertises "free consultation" on the website, but I have a lot more checking to do. Still trying to increase my cash pile, but that ain't easy for me. Don't be surprised that once the ball starts rolling that it rolls much faster than you expect. I'm not sure where you live, but 4.3 days per month sounds like a worst case scenario. I'd get in front of a lawyer ASAP and get your questions answered on how it would shake out. I resisted that step for a while, but could have saved myself much angst had I armed myself with facts rather than submit to my fears. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 16:49:26 GMT -5
I'm sorry you're dealing with this, @tooyoungtobeold . Is your wife the type who is never content with what she has? Always looking for more, better, different? Is it possible that she, too, is unhappy in the marriage? Surely your unhappiness is palpable. (I know mine often is!) Maybe this is the opening of a door to some deep discussions? In the end, I think leaving would boil down to taking a leap of faith, to being OK with possibly winding up alone, to trusting that there might be something better on the other side (or there might not be), to believing that the marriage has ceased to make you both better people. Only you can accurately assess those issues. Have you ever done any counseling for yourself? I've found it to be very empowering in my situation. I highly recommend it. Get some good recommendations and go for it. Shed the light on this stuff. It's the only way it can be transformed. She is very goal-oriented so once she sets her cap on something then she works on it tirelessly. Sometimes it feels like discontentment to me but she says it isn't. I'm sure my unhappiness does weigh on our relationship sometimes although she attributes it to middle-aged man grumpiness. I would say it's more of the sexlessness breeds resentment, which has moderated in the last five years but I'm not the shields-down, open partner that I was many years ago. I think almost everyone on this forum understands that part. Like many refusing partners, she is really uncomfortable talking about intimacy or feelings so there are no deep discussions to be had and she is strongly averse to counseling, or used to be--I haven't suggested it in a decade or more. Maybe I should. I have not done counseling for myself, not necessarily because i'm against it but because I think I know myself awfully well. That, of course, may or may not be true. How did counseling help you? What did you learn that you didn't know before about you and/or your relationship? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 16:51:54 GMT -5
My last hurrah was to propose a FWB for me to remove the pressure and aggravation for her of having to deal with me constantly trying to initiate some form of intimacy. She didn't much want any. At the 3rd discussion of a FWB near the end I stated I couldn't continue in the marriage as things were. At this point she stated she wanted to try to be sexually intimate more often. I thought "she gets it, she finally understands it's going to end if things don't change". And so we were very active for about 3 months. Then all of a sudden she reverted to refusing, avoiding and finding reasons not to be close. I knew then it was never going to change for the better. So I sought out a couple attorneys and started putting together an exit plan. Yeah, classic pattern. When we have had "the talk", there is some recovery period where she puts energy in to it. I've been through it a few times now and I know it's not sustainable or wanted or her part. So it goes. |
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