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Post by Apocrypha on Jul 13, 2017 23:28:55 GMT -5
There is a crap-tonne of self-validating "advice" out there about all the easy things you can do to save your marriage. It sells books and advertising and plays toward the hope of an easy fix. HuffPo, is packed wall to wall with that kind of woo.
Scheduling sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you is brutal. And I did try it. While under the guidance of a family psychiatrist. Two different ones. Neither one worked.
The number of "views" one of these things gets on CNN or HuffPo is a function of the distributor's reach. It is not a gauge of the efficacy of the method.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 14, 2017 3:30:04 GMT -5
csl , I have to admit I'm quite perplexed... I'm perplexed that you came barging into what was really a lighthearted conversation like a wounded bear, hurling barely disguised personal insults at me, and apparently offering one anecdotal case as evidence (you did not even bother to link to your evidence)... I'm perplexed that you came back a second time, insulting me because *I* didn't do YOUR homework to support your counter-argument. That's not the way it works. If you want to come barging into any conversation with some counter-argument it's your job to bring your evidence, not mine. Just smh... I'm perplexed because the bulk of your argument, gathered in a 10 second Bing search, is the same web sex self help drivel that has been totally discredited by a consensus of the active members here. We sit around and laugh about that stuff. Don't you read the threads here? You're preaching that drivel to the wrong choir, Sir. I'm perplexed because the rest of your evidence is a letter to your Christian web site from some guy named Mike, apparently a regular reader there. Yes, maybe someone, somewhere found some benefit from scheduled sex. But it wasn't a member of this site, the home of the most toxic relationships to be found anywhere. And at least half of the member's partners are probably severely sexually dysfunctional. The discussions we have here are in the context of this group, not Mike out on some other planet. Now, if you want to prove your point, rather than charging in here to insult me repetitively, and disrupting a lighthearted convo, maybe you should start your own thread where you can link to all your sex scheduling self help stuff, and recruit some members here to try it out. And if you get a success rate that justifies your position then report back to us. In the meantime, have a nice day.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 14, 2017 5:59:17 GMT -5
Csi,
Start a thread about implementing daily sex in your marriage. Let us learn from and follow your journey including what happens when you share the idea with your wife.
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Post by jim44444 on Jul 14, 2017 6:10:52 GMT -5
. . . Scheduling sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you is brutal. . . . You are correct on that Apocrypha. If someone does not want to have sex with you then scheduling, scented candles, magic spells or any other vodoo or prayer schemes will be useless. If those processes somehow culminate in a sex act then as you say it will be brutal. However, in csl examples those couples wanted to have sex but let their other lives interfere. The concept of scheduling gave them the tool to bring sex back into their lives. It does not fit my idea of romance and spontaneity but if it works for them, good. It will not work with a partner who finds sex distasteful, painful, sinful or just hates our guts.
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Post by hopingforachange on Jul 14, 2017 7:37:30 GMT -5
So, I will bring some experience from my marriage into this.
The wife previously saw sex as a "Wife's Duty" and a few years ago I complained about the lack of sex and she attempted to have more frequent sex. She essentially put on her big girl panties and checked the box more often. It drover her to not want sex even more since it was out of duty and not even a biological desire.
There are people that like sex but just have a low libido. These are the people that I think a sex schedule or trying daily sex will work on, to try to up the desire or the idea that sex is a normal thing in the relationship. So have it be a normal / routine thing to do on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday nights, will want them to continue the practice. aka Humans are creatures of habit
For people that don't like sex, it is forcing them to poke their own eye with a stick every time.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jul 14, 2017 7:37:31 GMT -5
On a more light hearted note, I remember two events in the last year and a half.
1) My wife and I went off for a weekend. Scheduled sex. By simply informing my wife that I would like to do it again the next day, I was accused of being disrespectful and demanding. That opened up a conversation about control and divorce.
2) I went and had a root canal done, and a temporary crown put in place. I experienced a numb tingly feeling. I was complimented and praised over and over again, for doing the simplest of things. " Turn your head slightly this way, EXCELLENT", and "Your doing great, good job", "are you okay?, do you need anything else? Would you like to sit up for a while?" Meanwhile I had as many as three lovely ladies pressing over me, feeling their arms and breasts on my arms, looking at their beautiful hair and faces, and hearing them talk with each other in friendly respectful conversations. There's also a movie playing for me to watch the whole time. Meanwhile I am being treated like a king, and all I have to do is lie there and be part of the furniture!
Hmmmm.... I think I'd rather have the root canal!! (especially bballgirl's kind!!)
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Post by csl on Jul 14, 2017 7:39:51 GMT -5
Csi, Start a thread about implementing daily sex in your marriage. Let us learn from and follow your journey including what happens when you share the idea with your wife. Why re-invent the wheel? I have a five-part series up on my blog linked on my About page. If anyone is interested, follow this link.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Jul 14, 2017 9:32:10 GMT -5
Well then....Im glad this little journal of mine in the corner of the forum can generate such passionate debate. ;-)
I appreciate all the good comments and discussion. I am not sure my wife or I are a big fans of scheduled sex. We are more the spontaneous type. But I thought it funny to tell the anecdote about the good ole horn dog doctor.
She actually does enjoy sex, sometimes, very rarely to be truthful. But we have a big disconnect in libido. I would "settle" for once a week non-scheduled but even that is not in the cards. In the last year, we have had mutually enjoyable sex maybe 1 or 2 times. Everything else has been the starfish variety or hurry up and finish up Id like to get my nails done variety.
I get that for many people this might suffice, sex isnt everything, she is still willing etc. If I was lower libido, Id probably be happy. But truth is the on going rejection is hurtful and I am getting past the stage of resentment.
It is difficult for me because for a looooong time we had a great sex life. And even now that I am disconnecting, those memories are etched into the sexual part of my brain and I long for a return to those days. Seems like self inflicted pain, huh. Im working on it though. This is a temporary phase.
I did want to journal that she is starting to get touchy lately. A little bit over the weekend but last night, a lot of arm and shoulder touching and even the press the breast into my arm while we were shopping. Its funny that Im so hyper aware of something so innocuous. Im a little conflicted about her actions. I dont want to make it into a big deal, but at the same time, I feel a discussion coming on if it becomes more persistent or normalized. So yeah just that.
Hope everyone else is off to a great start this morning.
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Post by hopingforachange on Jul 14, 2017 9:55:27 GMT -5
Well then....Im glad this little journal of mine in the corner of the forum can generate such passionate debate. ;-) I appreciate all the good comments and discussion. I am not sure my wife or I are a big fans of scheduled sex. We are more the spontaneous type. But I thouggt it funny to tell the anecdote about the good ole horn dog doctor. She actually does enjoy sex, sometimes, very rarely to be truthful. But we have a big disconnect in libido. I would "settle" for once a week non-scheduled but even that is not in the cards. In the last year, we have had mutually enjoyable sex maybe 1 or 2 times. Everything else has been the starfish variety or hurry up and finish up Id like to get my nails done variety. I get that for many people this might suffice, sex isnt everything, she is still willing etc. If I was lower libido, Id probably be happy. But truth is the on going rejection is hurtful and I an getting past the stage of resentment. It is difficult for me because for a looooong time we had a great sex life. And even now that I am disconnecting, those memories are etched into the sexual part of my brain and I long for a return to those days. Seems like self inflicted pain, huh. Im working on it though. This is a temporary phase. I did want to journal that she is starting to get touchy lately. A little bit over the weekend but last night, a lot of arm arm and shoulder touching and even the press the breast into my arm while we were shopping. Its funny that Im so hyper aware of something so innocuous. Im a little conflicted about her actions. I dont want to make it into a big deal, but at the same time, I feel a discussion coming on if it become more persistent or normalized. So yeah just that. Hope everyone else is off to a great start this morning. I would have a discussion asking why she wants to have more physical contact. It might be something that changed with you or something that changed with her but either way it would help for her to know that you like the new contact and want it to continue.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Jul 14, 2017 10:25:31 GMT -5
I am not welcoming of the touching. I am not flinching nor am I offended by it. But the stage that we are in the relationship, I dont feel like reciprocating.
I think she is testing, probing if its ok to get close. She is pretty perceptive so I suspect she will pick up on the fact that its non-reciprocal.
Like I said, I feel a discussion coming on.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 14, 2017 11:04:35 GMT -5
TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo , have you and your wife considered counseling? Unlike a lot of people here, you actually had a really good sex life for 12 years, and then it pretty much fell off a cliff. In only 5 years you've gone from regular sex to 1-2 times last year. You are only two tiny steps away from total celibacy. I'm not counting the starfish sex, which she obviously resents. I'm not a big fan of counseling in order to try to turn your effectively sexless or asexual partner into a porn star, but it seems like a situation like yours could really benefit from it. In earlier posts you've mentioned that the decline in sex was accompanied by a very negative change in her attitude toward you, and sex. You haven't been able to get to the bottom of all that but maybe a good couples counselor could? You are now disconnecting from her. That is the first stage toward the end of the marriage, or a Stasis In Hell for the both of you. Don't ask me how I know that from experience. She seems to be sensing your disconnection, resulting in the recent touchy feeley. If you are lucky, and you want the marriage to succeed, that could be a really good sign. Maybe she's noticed your disconnection and desperately wants to change it. But it's hard to turn a Cruise Ship around, and after 5 years of declining relations, that is what it's like to effect any change. You seem almost apologetic for your libido, and also your wife's lack of libido. Once or twice a year is not normal, in fact it is snuggled right up against the asexual spectrum (gray-asexual to be precise). Anything under once a month is seriously problematic. There is no need to apologize for your sex drive. As I said, you are only a few tiny steps from enforced priesthood, total celibacy, without any benefits. Your wife is probably not asexual, you would not have had 12 years of great sex if she was. But she has obviously adopted the same mindset toward sex, at least in terms of partnered sex with you. She is not enjoying more than minimal sex (rapidly declining to zero) because she has developed an aversion to sex with you. That is a fact. Otherwise you guys would be having the sex you always had. I think it's a good idea that neither of you are interested in scheduled sex because I think in your case, given your wife's very sex averse attitude, it would blow up in your face and result in even less sex. The reason for that is that sex negative people find sex to be an extremely emotionally draining experience. That is why asexuals won't just "spread their legs for the marriage" forever. They do it in the beginning but eventually they tire of it or more charitably the (increasingly negative) emotional investment wears them out. This is a fact and is discussed frequently on the AVEN site. If you take someone whose little remaining libido is good for once or twice a year (last year, maybe not this year) and you try to schedule sex every week, or even once a month, the result will be that they will quickly become emotionally drained, just like asexuals, even if they aren't fundamentally asexual but have an attitude problem toward the marriage. You can't force or coerce a sex negative partner into enjoying sex, but you can coerce them into having sex, if the stakes are high enough. For awhile. But eventually they will rebel and you will find yourself in total celibacy. Scheduling sex is just another way to coerce sex ***IF*** ***IF*** ***IF*** they are currently sex negative (sex repulsed) for whatever reason. This is why I argued previously in this thread that for some people (which are a majority of the refusing partners here) scheduled sex is like a root canal. Yes, some people are not fundamentally sex negative, they have a libido, desire for their partner, but something is in the way, and scheduling might help them. But we are not normal here. The discussions on AVEN prove that the more sex you try to extract from a sex negative partner, the less you get. That's a fact, and as I said, even if your partner is not asexual, if you are having sex less than once a month your partner has the same MINDSET. Just to reinforce why I think TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo 's story here screams for either counseling or divorce. Or abject misery until death do you both apart.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 14, 2017 11:36:48 GMT -5
"Disconnecting" from your wife sounds like "stonewalling," what Gottman, an expert on marriage, says is one of the 4 "horsemen" that predict a divorce within 5 years: "The fourth horseman is stonewalling. Stonewalling occurs when the listener withdraws from the interaction. In other words, stonewalling is when one person shuts down and closes himself/herself off from the other. It is a lack of responsiveness to your partner and the interaction between the two of you. Rather than confronting the issues (which tend to accumulate!) with our partner, we make evasive maneuvers such as tuning out, turning away, acting busy, or engaging in obsessive behaviors. It takes time for the negativity created by the first three horsemen to become overwhelming enough that stonewalling becomes an understandable “out,” but when it does, it frequently becomes a habit." www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/If what you want is a divorce (while also modeling for your kids what to expect in their marriage), continue stonewalling your wife. If not, and if both of you are willing to engage in counseling, that would be the path to try.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jul 14, 2017 12:51:31 GMT -5
. . . Scheduling sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you is brutal. . . . You are correct on that Apocrypha . If someone does not want to have sex with you then scheduling, scented candles, magic spells or any other vodoo or prayer schemes will be useless. If those processes somehow culminate in a sex act then as you say it will be brutal. However, in csl examples those couples wanted to have sex but let their other lives interfere. The concept of scheduling gave them the tool to bring sex back into their lives. It does not fit my idea of romance and spontaneity but if it works for them, good. It will not work with a partner who finds sex distasteful, painful, sinful or just hates our guts. I don't buy it because I've been there and convinced myself of the same things, especially in the early days. The problem I have is in the excuse of "letting our lives" interfere. I bought that self-deluding bullshit from my wife for years. She was "so busy". Too busy for even a 5 minute quicky. The first game changer was when I realized I'd taken over most of her share of household labour in addition to my own, as well as subsidizing her increasingly part time work and leisure. At some point, in therapy, I asked her how much less does it need to be for her to be "not too busy". I realized that I was in the SAME MARRIAGE as her, I was also busy, and I still put sex at a priority. When I noticed her reading books to our very young kids well bast 10pm, and then falling asleep in their beds in the middle of this dispute around sexual time, I realized she was creating work - even to the expense of our children's well being - to avoid sex. It wasn't that she just "didn't have time." It's that she was using it as an excuse to not be honest about the dysfunction. And then, she had the time for an affair. She had time for that. So, there's my personal experience with it, for what it's worth. I don't see that my experience is all that different from the way most of the stories bloom on here over time either. If you want sex in your life and if you want a partner who wants you (and that can be different from wanting a partner who loves you), it's easy to have.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Jul 14, 2017 14:03:20 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for reading and the commentary. Very much appreciated. I think the comments are spot on. beachguy I do believe we are at the proverbial fork in the road. So counseling or divorce? I dont believe we would go to counseling together. I might go on my own though to be truthful, journaling here does seem to provide me with some clarity. And of course the feedback and the benefit of the collective experiences has no price. I lean towards divorce. Not that I dont love my wife nor do I believe that she does not love me. But I try to project "us" into the future and I wonder if there is happiness or not. I am not optimistic. The difficulty lies in the finances and the fact that we have 4 kids. Financially we would both be worse off and the kids, not sure there. I know kids are resilient but not sure if having a part time dad is best for them longer term. I know I would suffer under that arrangement. northstarmom It does sound like a bit of stonewalling. Except I dont really ignore her. In fact since I have moved out of the bedroom the relationship is very cordial although we have not talked as a "couple" about matters of the relationship. That will come as I feel like discussing the new boundaries so there is no ambiguity. So where does that leave us? I think there is a an option where I fulfill my responsibilities as head of the household and as a father under the same roof, but under the roommate plan. No romantic attachment. I would be free to outsource and same for her. How do I get there. I dont know. Is there a chance to "work" on the relationship? There always is. I am not hopeful because even if I expressed my concerns to her about sex and other dimensions of our relationship (anger and control issues on her part), Im not convinced she is at a place where she will acknowledge those issues let alone work on them.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jul 14, 2017 14:15:54 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for reading and the commentary. Very much appreciated. I think the comments are spot on. beachguy I do believe we are at the proverbial fork in the road. So counseling or divorce? I dont believe we would go to counseling together. I might go on my own though to be truthful, journaling here does seem to provide me with some clarity. And of course the feedback and the benefit of the collective experiences has no price. I lean towards divorce. Not that I dont love my wife nor do I believe that she doea not love me. But I try to project "us" into the future and I wonder if there is happiness or not. The difficulty lies in the finances and the fact that we have 4 kids. Financially we would both be worse off and the kids, not sure there. I know kids are resilient but not sure if having a part time dad is best for them longer term. I know I would suffer under that arrangement. @northsstarmom It does sound like a bit of stonewalling. Except I dont really ignore her. In fact since I have moved out of the bedroom the relationship is very cordial although we have not talked as a "couple" about matters of the relationship. That will come as I feel like discussing the new boundaries so there is no ambiguity. So where does that leave us? I think there is a an option where I fulfill my responsibilities as head of the household and as a father under the same roof, but under the roommate plan. No romantical attachment. I would be free to outsource and same for her. How do I get there. I dont know. Is there a chance to "work" on the relationship? There always is. I am not hopeful because even if I expressed my concerns to her about sex and other dimensions of our relationship (anger and control issues on her part), Im not convinced she is at a place where she will acknowledge those issues let alone work on them. I believe this would be a helpful article for you too. shrink4men.com/2017/07/12/tipping-points-and-breaking-points-the-moment-you-know-you-must-end-an-abusive-relationship/As a father to 6 kids I waited until the teen years to make a life changing change. All for the better. I believe they are mature enough to see the problem at hand, and I hope to offer them a better solution. Also a lesson on how not to have a relationship, and what true happiness will be all about.
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