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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 13:11:02 GMT -5
beachguy, that is very profound. After years of struggling with infrequent/unenthusiastic sex, then 6 years of total celibacy, I have come to this conclusion: If your spouse loved you, he/she would be having sex with you OR actively seeking a solution to whatever issue is stopping them from having sex with you.
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Post by novembercomingfire on Jun 20, 2017 13:18:37 GMT -5
Please allow me a mini rant. Once in a while, while discussing my feelings about the marriage -- or specific things that she has said or done or not done -- my wife will let out an exasperated: "it's always all about you, isn't it?!" Umm... well... when I'm talking about my feelings, as a matter of fact, it IS about me. Who else am I supposed to be talking about? This is an unfair brush off. I'm using "I statements" just like the therapist told us to do (rather than "you statements"). Oddly, we (my wife and I) both self-identify with being "givers". But we don't see it so much in each other. I guess that is another hallmark of a marriage that is failing. This is very eerie to me. My refuser did the same thing. If I didn't talk about my feelings, I was accused of being too closed off. If I did talk about my feelings, I was accused of being selfish. Once in counseling, I was talking about how my refuser called me something, and I asked her not to call me that. She told me that she should be able to call me whatever she wanted. I was talking about how this showed an extreme lack of empathy. She then told me that talking about her not having empathy was not being empathetic. So, in her eyes, if I don't focus on her in a positive manner, then I am not being caring. And if I ever bring up, talk about, or even think about negative things she has done, I am not being caring. The longer I am away from her, the more I realize that this is total bullshit. This is the story with my wife as well, but add in a few measures of bragging about how empathetic she is to go along with how unempathetic and uncaring i am. Yep, total fucking nonsense. |
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Post by Dan on Jun 20, 2017 13:28:38 GMT -5
One of the few Ultimate Truths of an SM: You cannot reason your way out of a sexless relationship. Most of the above can be summarized by that one Ultimate Truth. Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Even if we generally say "emotions are not rational", and for the sake of argument throw "love" and "passion" and "sex drive" in the same pot... I still should be able to have a rational conversation about my feelings, emotions, and sexual desire with my spouse, no? It is the deflection of such discussions with "it's all about you" that I'm objecting to. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 14:14:31 GMT -5
One of the few Ultimate Truths of an SM: You cannot reason your way out of a sexless relationship. Most of the above can be summarized by that one Ultimate Truth. Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Even if we generally say "emotions are not rational", and for the sake of argument throw "love" and "passion" and "sex drive" in the same pot... I still should be able to have a rational conversation about my feelings, emotions, and sexual desire with my spouse, no? It is the deflection of such discussions with "it's all about you" that I'm objecting to. Yes, you should have to have a rational discussion about your feelings, emotions, and sexual desires with your spouse. However, many spouses are not willing or able to do this. Instead, they make disparaging comments which tend to end all discussion, especially a discussion about matters they don't care to discuss. Just my opinion |
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Post by beachguy on Jun 20, 2017 14:35:38 GMT -5
One of the few Ultimate Truths of an SM: You cannot reason your way out of a sexless relationship. Most of the above can be summarized by that one Ultimate Truth. Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Even if we generally say "emotions are not rational", and for the sake of argument throw "love" and "passion" and "sex drive" in the same pot... I still should be able to have a rational conversation about my feelings, emotions, and sexual desire with my spouse, no? It is the deflection of such discussions with "it's all about you" that I'm objecting to. Hi Dan, let me clarify. I said nothing about what you should or shouldn't be able to talk about with your spouse. Or what you should or shouldn't do. Not my place to suggest that, for sure. I merely made the observation, based on the total body of evidence embodied in all the posts in this forum and the predecessor EP forum, that the chances of successfully turning around an SM into a mutually satisfying sexual relationship is either zero or near zero, depending on how you view a 1:1,000 to 1:10,000 success rate, depending on your accounting and your view of "success". Using reasoning or any other method (including coercion of some form or another). To be clear, there is nothing wrong with talking, or using reasoning. But the statistical fact we are dealing with is effectively insurmountable. This isn't my idea, it is repeated by baza almost every time he responds to a new member... "you can't reason your way, or coerce your way or (insert other stuff here) out of an SM". And he's absolutely right and he has the combined history of the two forums on his factual side. Interestingly, in my own case, the more reason I applied to my argument the less reasonable she became. I see that in many posts here describing various efforts to reason their way into a successful sexual relationship with a spouse that is fundamentally disinterested. Another Ultimate Truth: If your spouse was interested in fucking you, you would not be here. If your spouse is not, you cannot make them want you, regardless of the craftiness of your reasoning and logic. Or the method of coercion. End of story. It is a brutal concept to embrace but I've not seen anything in these forums that invalidates it. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jun 20, 2017 19:39:58 GMT -5
DanI'm sorry your feelings weren't acknowledged. That's wrong and selfish. Sometimes we have to accept the reality of the situation and not expect much. Put in our time and wait for parole. Hugs
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Post by baza on Jun 20, 2017 19:57:55 GMT -5
I think the underlying refuser mentality is it is perfectly fine as a principle for one of the spouses views to take precedence over the other and take an attitude that the relationship is "all about me".
As long as that spouse is them.
Now they may espouse this viewpoint in an abrupt nasty manner, or in a passive aggressive manner, or a subtle sneaky manner, or in a combative manner, or in a nice pleasant manner, but the message is the same.
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Post by beachguy on Jun 20, 2017 22:20:29 GMT -5
The Third Ultimate Truth, the great equalizer: If your spouse refuses to take care of your needs, eventually someone else probably will.
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Post by northstarmom on Jun 20, 2017 22:31:04 GMT -5
"The Third Ultimate Truth, the great equalizer: If your spouse refuses to take care of your needs, eventually someone else probably will."
Judging by the many people here who have been celibate and faithful for years, I don't think that's true. Many in SMs cope with their misery by doing self-destructive things like overeating. They cling to their SMs while taking actions that are likely to keep others from being sexually attracted to them,
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Post by baza on Jun 20, 2017 22:36:20 GMT -5
Another spin on the position - "If your spouse refuses to take care of your needs, eventually someone else probably will" - would be, that the "someone", who is to take care of your needs, is yourself.
In other words, the resolution is in your own hands, by exercising your own choices.
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Post by beachguy on Jun 21, 2017 2:09:05 GMT -5
"The Third Ultimate Truth, the great equalizer: If your spouse refuses to take care of your needs, eventually someone else probably will." Judging by the many people here who have been celibate and faithful for years, I don't think that's true. Many in SMs cope with their misery by doing self-destructive things like overeating. They cling to their SMs while taking actions that are likely to keep others from being sexually attracted to them, I chose my words carefully... "eventually" and "probably" are key. The members here are a somewhat unique group of people who have experienced chronic sexless relationships. The divorce rate is well over 50% now, and within that group are, as best I can figure, most people in this situation. Most people split up before they ever bother finding this group. Even within this group there is a large fraction already divorced, actively planning an exit strategy, or outsourcing. And it seems like every week someone else here walks out the door. For the world at large, I would not want to make even money bets that every enforced celibate relationship stays that way till death do them apart. I think I would be a HUGE loser, although I would fare far better if I could start my bets when people enter this group (avoiding everyone that simply does not tolerate sexlessness for very long and never bothers to come here). |
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Post by beachguy on Jun 21, 2017 9:43:16 GMT -5
beachguy , that is very profound. After years of struggling with infrequent/unenthusiastic sex, then 6 years of total celibacy, I have come to this conclusion: If your spouse loved you, he/she would be having sex with you OR actively seeking a solution to whatever issue is stopping them from having sex with you. The "my spouse does not love me" model. The "asexual" model fits equally well. Where your spouse loves you in her own way but cannot see sex as a bonding experience. Just food for thought. |
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Post by h on Jun 21, 2017 10:00:32 GMT -5
Another spin on the position - "If your spouse refuses to take care of your needs, eventually someone else probably will" - would be, that the "someone", who is to take care of your needs, is yourself. In other words, the resolution is in your own hands, by exercising your own choices. Umm. I guess my needs have been partially taken care of by myself. You are correct that it's "in my hands" so to speak. Quite literally in my own hands...😜 In fact, it's usually in my hands daily.😂😅 |
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Post by h on Jun 21, 2017 10:18:05 GMT -5
"The Third Ultimate Truth, the great equalizer: If your spouse refuses to take care of your needs, eventually someone else probably will." Judging by the many people here who have been celibate and faithful for years, I don't think that's true. Many in SMs cope with their misery by doing self-destructive things like overeating. They cling to their SMs while taking actions that are likely to keep others from being sexually attracted to them, I absolutely want to make sure that I'm not attractive to anyone else! Until this marriage is either mended or ended, I don't want the added temptation of some other woman coming on to me and having to turn her down. Even if the marriage implodes, I will not end up with the label of "cheater" to follow me around for life. In a small rural area, labels stick with you regardless of whether or not they are deserved. So until I am either out of this relationship, or content and happy in it, I will do everything I can to minimize the possibility of my judgement being overridden by my urges. Thus, I drink, I over eat, I don't exercise other than work related physical activity, and I avoid the doctor. I consider it a temporary sacrifice in exchange for my sanity. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Jun 21, 2017 13:59:28 GMT -5
"The Third Ultimate Truth, the great equalizer: If your spouse refuses to take care of your needs, eventually someone else probably will." Judging by the many people here who have been celibate and faithful for years, I don't think that's true. Many in SMs cope with their misery by doing self-destructive things like overeating. They cling to their SMs while taking actions that are likely to keep others from being sexually attracted to them, I absolutely want to make sure that I'm not attractive to anyone else! Until this marriage is either mended or ended, I don't want the added temptation of some other woman coming on to me and having to turn her down. Even if the marriage implodes, I will not end up with the label of "cheater" to follow me around for life. In a small rural area, labels stick with you regardless of whether or not they are deserved. So until I am either out of this relationship, or content and happy in it, I will do everything I can to minimize the possibility of my judgement being overridden by my urges. Thus, I drink, I over eat, I don't exercise other than work related physical activity, and I avoid the doctor. I consider it a temporary sacrifice in exchange for my sanity. I also ran the same logic on my own life - basically investing in solo activities and refusing to flirt or enjoy opportunities and relationships that seemed to be an opportunity for me to become interested romantically. I was very aware of how prone I might be to cheating. This led to me becoming isolated, less attractive physically, appearing and sometimes being more dependent on my wife for social interaction and less interesting as an individual. It accelerated the decline, and itself became a thing she openly resented me for. And I've seen that happen within my friend circles lately, with naked contempt evident between spouses. It's not defence at all against the initial problem, and creates additional burdens to overcome both in the existing relationship and after its demise. Be an attractive person with interests. That's the person your wife fell in love with. That's the person you need to learn to love, and that's the person, with luck, your next lover will be attracted to. |
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