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Post by Dan on Jun 20, 2017 7:21:30 GMT -5
Please allow me a mini rant.
Once in a while, while discussing my feelings about the marriage -- or specific things that she has said or done or not done -- my wife will let out an exasperated: "it's always all about you, isn't it?!"
Umm... well... when I'm talking about my feelings, as a matter of fact, it IS about me. Who else am I supposed to be talking about?
This is an unfair brush off. I'm using "I statements" just like the therapist told us to do (rather than "you statements").
Oddly, we (my wife and I) both self-identify with being "givers". But we don't see it so much in each other. I guess that is another hallmark of a marriage that is failing.
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Post by ironhamster on Jun 20, 2017 8:19:46 GMT -5
Say it like it is, Dan.
My wife has shut down conversations about our sex life because it "hurts" her to try to talk her into things that she does not want to do.
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Post by baza on Jun 20, 2017 8:24:15 GMT -5
In truth, I think most relationships are about *you*. And I see that as a good thing.
It seems to me that that is where relationships start going down the chute, when one of the participants gets co-erced (or chooses t0 be) into a subordinate role, drops their self focus and starts making the relationship all about the other person. To me, that ain't healthy.
I think that two people in a marriage, both with developed self focus, a sense of their own worth etc is actually a highly functional situation. It actually value adds to the "us", it does not detract from it. It mutually respects both people in the dynamic and what they individually bring to the joint table.
In my own deal, the relationship is as much about me as it is about Ms enna. And from her side, as much about Ms enna as it is about me. Seems to work just fine.
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Post by ironhamster on Jun 20, 2017 8:34:16 GMT -5
When I was married, the advice was that marriage was 90/10. Expect to give much more than you get. I accepted that. What a fucking dumbshit, eh?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 10:00:23 GMT -5
Say it like it is, Dan. My wife has shut down conversations about our sex life because it "hurts" her to try to talk her into things that she does not want to do. I hope you don't get offended by this, but I am compelled to say it, "WHAT A HORRIBLY SELFISH THING TO SAY! SHE IS AN EVIL BITCH!" If she gave a tiny shit about you, she would at least be willing to discuss it, but she refuses to do even that.
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Post by eternaloptimism on Jun 20, 2017 10:15:45 GMT -5
When I was married, the advice was that marriage was 90/10. Expect to give much more than you get. I accepted that. What a fucking dumbshit, eh? What arseface told you that. Grr. Makes me mad how we end up believing this crap people tell us. Like your new pic btw
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Post by eternaloptimism on Jun 20, 2017 10:17:19 GMT -5
Relationships should really be about 2 (or more ... I have an open mind) emotionally healthy people who support each other's happiness.
That's it really. It's not even that hard is it!
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Post by ironhamster on Jun 20, 2017 10:17:29 GMT -5
Thus begins my freedom, and our unofficial "don't ask don't tell" policy.
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Post by Dan on Jun 20, 2017 10:26:50 GMT -5
When I was married, the advice was that marriage was 90/10. Expect to give much more than you get. I accepted that. What a fucking dumbshit, eh? I can't accept that marriage should ever be a 90/10 split. What I CAN accept is that marriage should be a 90/90 split. That is to say: it IS about giving. And are more aware of all the "little things you do" and "little sacrifices you make" than you are of your spouses. So if both sides feel they are giving 90%, things are about right. It all balances out, and you have a wonderful, fulfilling, balanced marriage. In most areas of my marriage outside of sex and intimacy, I'd say for the most part I had that. ("It's all good except the sex".) But that missing 80% in the sex-and-intimacy department has become a deal breaker, discoloring the rest of the marriage.
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Post by northstarmom on Jun 20, 2017 10:43:38 GMT -5
I don't think marriage is all about giving or receiving. Depending on the circumstances, it may be for a while 100 for giving or receiving. A spouse in intensive care, for instance would be 100 percent receiving.
A marriage is immensely dysfunctional if it always has been greatly inequitable in terms of who gives and receives. Something is dysfunctional in a person if they choose to enter a relationship that is enormously unbalanced. Either they are selfish and narcissistic or they lack love for themselves. Many refused were taught that having any self love and concern is undesirable and selfish.
Except when my post sm lover was seriously ill, I've never felt that I was giving 90 percent. I give and am supportive of him, but I don't give to him while overlooking my own needs. I still have Alice and interests outside of him. I'm an extrovert, he is an introvert. I have more need of being around others than he needs. So, I go out with friends sometimes while he stays home. He'd rather I stay with him, but the amount of hanging out at home time that is regenerating to him is draining to me.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jun 20, 2017 10:48:25 GMT -5
Our family counselor did a little exercise with us. He had each of us write which one of us was putting in effort, by percentage ration. We held up our cards. We had both put down 90%/10% as a ratio, but with opposite allotments.
He said this was a common outcome to this exercise, and that what we should each take from that is that clearly they both aren't correct, but rather that the areas in which we were applying effort - our goals and methods - might not be aligned.
Even with that advice, it was still quite some time before I grasped the meaning (which seems OBVIOUS) in hindsight of my wife trying to explain the scale of her effort at being a good mother and even just surviving or getting up in the morning, in a situation where she needed to "supply" desire and "give sex" to me. In essence, she was a trapped fairy princess and I was the tyrant ugly prince in her narrative.
If I backed up from the assumption that my wife actually WANTED to have sex with me, and instead proceeded from the assumption that she was not into me at all, but was felt trapped into a situation in which she had an obligation to fuck me, I was able to understand how SHE saw the amount of effort she was expending on sustaining the marriage, compared to me.
In other words, it was easy for me because I was attracted and invested in her. It was hard for her because the thought of sleeping with me made her skin crawl, and later on, her realization that other extremely attractive women in her circles wanted me (when she was "unable" to want me), made her feel self loathing. She saw her own desire for me as a commodity to be built up and dispensed. As she methodically went at the problem, she realized she felt more respectful and admired me more when I was on display in the role of a good father, or in a social situation in which I entertained others. Being well-disposed and liking me and wanting to reward me in those roles was enough of an engine to motivate her to want to reward me. As time went on, though, we realize a considerable difference between that and actually desiring or needing me in a sexual way.
We can all talk about what we "deserve" from our spouses until the cows come home. We might even be right in that. What we want in a spouse, or what anyone should want from a romantic partner, means diddly squat in terms of what's on supply. Your partner feels it organically or they don't. If they feel it, they are going to want to bang you, even when life is shitty.
YOU want to bang your partner, even though life is shitty, right? Even though you fight and there is a lot of stress?
In saying what she's saying, it's the same as Mrs Apocrypha. She's telling you her engines are ALREADY going and that by her measure, she's putting in 90% of the effort and compromise, and you 10%. Forget shaming her selfishness etc., she's TELLING you how she feels, and you can weigh the results. Run that engine for another year or so and where do you think you will each end up?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 10:50:13 GMT -5
Please allow me a mini rant. Once in a while, while discussing my feelings about the marriage -- or specific things that she has said or done or not done -- my wife will let out an exasperated: "it's always all about you, isn't it?!" Umm... well... when I'm talking about my feelings, as a matter of fact, it IS about me. Who else am I supposed to be talking about? This is an unfair brush off. I'm using "I statements" just like the therapist told us to do (rather than "you statements"). Oddly, we (my wife and I) both self-identify with being "givers". But we don't see it so much in each other. I guess that is another hallmark of a marriage that is failing. This is very eerie to me. My refuser did the same thing. If I didn't talk about my feelings, I was accused of being too closed off. If I did talk about my feelings, I was accused of being selfish. Once in counseling, I was talking about how my refuser called me something, and I asked her not to call me that. She told me that she should be able to call me whatever she wanted. I was talking about how this showed an extreme lack of empathy. She then told me that talking about her not having empathy was not being empathetic. So, in her eyes, if I don't focus on her in a positive manner, then I am not being caring. And if I ever bring up, talk about, or even think about negative things she has done, I am not being caring. The longer I am away from her, the more I realize that this is total bullshit.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 20, 2017 10:54:42 GMT -5
"it's all about you isn't it?"
Just another reversal in the DARVO. Another broad sweeping denial that anything could be their blame. Another meaningless ,emotion based, fact less statement ,to avoid any responsibility. I'd bet a nickel if you asked her "what do you mean by "it"? give me three examples? You would get more of the same fact less broad sweeping cliches. "That's all you ever think about" or something completely off the subject.
After proving how useless her rhetoric is on you, she can also "shut down" completely, by detaching from any conversations. The easier it gets for you to say, "we are finished".
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Post by merrygoround on Jun 20, 2017 10:55:22 GMT -5
Maybe they meant that the 90/10 split should be an action from BOTH sides. I get the idea, but yeah not the best way of putting it - especially in the hands of a controlling refuser.
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Post by beachguy on Jun 20, 2017 13:07:36 GMT -5
One of the few Ultimate Truths of an SM: You cannot reason your way out of a sexless relationship. Most of the above can be summarized by that one Ultimate Truth.
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