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Post by tiffanyc on Jun 16, 2017 13:47:40 GMT -5
OK maybe this has been said and done a 1000 times already. 1. Talk about it with your H? 2. Go to counselling? 3. Go away for a week-end even if it is to a Motel 8 off the next exit ramp. Do you still love him and want be a HAPPY COUPLE in LOVE? Does He? Then maybe it is worth making efforts. And the obvious too obvious - "It Take Two to Make a Thing Go Right" - you both have to want it and desire it. Personally, yes, I heard a lot of this from my W - she needed to feel desired and loved - the "sex" begins hours before the bed chamber - it is an all day thing and a BAROMETER of the health of the couple. If the SEXLESSNESS is there it 99 out of a 100 is but a SYMPTOM of deeper problems - It don't matter who is the Refuser or the Refused - because these roles as we see can interchange. My nose is running but the problem aint my nose it is a cold virus in my blood. my knee hurts - but it aint my knee it is my Iliot Tibial band that runs from my back bone to my heel. The marriage is sexless but it aint the lack of sex that is CAUSING the sexlessness - it is something somewhere else. I have brought up him and I going to joint therapy and he has flat refused. I may try again on my end and see if a third time will be of any help. We are going on vacation in a little over a week and maybe, I doubt for a weekend, but maybe for a few hours since we're staying with family, he and I could do something together. We'll see. |
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Post by DryCreek on Jun 16, 2017 14:14:23 GMT -5
My own take on this is that her H has been counter-refusing, to some extent, since the 3 years Tiffany first refused. He lost his trust, and his desire to satisfy her as he had when they first met. Without casting blame on either, I'm just suggesting that this story shows how difficult it is to turn any SM around, even after "only" 3 years. And in this case the *original* refuser (and she still suggests she is even now a refuser (sort of, maybe) and has offered evidence of such) is the one actively trying to fix things. I agree that tiffanyc's situation isn't typical. It does seem like there are two people who would both like to have sex, but one or both are not setting the stage as the other needs. They'd like to talk, but they speak different languages. No doubt one party or the other instigated, or a bad influence crept in and now the dynamic is broken. It seems the potential is there but progress is gridlocked. |
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Post by tiffanyc on Jun 16, 2017 15:27:42 GMT -5
Tiffany? I get it. I understand why you don't do what you don't do. Why don't you gtfo or outsource? That idea hasn't crossed my mind. Well, maybe for a minute when I got that email from that friend. But that's the only time and even then the thought didn't last long |
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Post by McRoomMate on Jun 16, 2017 16:51:33 GMT -5
tiffanyc , I completely understand your frustration. I'll be a little contrarian here... as your story has unfolded, I'm not sure that I would classify you as a "refuser". Nor your husband. Yes, you are declining sex, but as a reaction to a broken sex dynamic. What you seem to be describing is less about your disinterest or desire, and more about the fact that H won't make the effort to get you in the mood and contribute to a mutually amazing experience. (And, perhaps, your actions don't nurture that mindset in him.) Your refusal seems to be rooted more in a reaction to a partner who won't make the effort. In a typical SM scenario this would be tagged as counter-refusal... you're not averse to sex; you're avoiding bad sex because the experience is unpleasant / one-sided / mechanical / emotionless / whatever. In the context of SM, counter-refusal is an emotional defense... experience says it's an illusion, and what "checks the box" as "sex" will be a cruel disappointment. Maybe I'm missing key facts, but the problem here seems to be a lot more about the relationship - and more importantly, H's listening skills and willingness to put in the effort on his side. Being conscious about pushing each other's buttons in meaningful ways, which can require humbly "re-learning" what each other needs emotionally and making the effort to deliver. (And appreciate that today's version of you two is different from 20 years ago, and what did/didn't work then may not apply anymore.) This is usually where a counselor comes into the picture to help facilitate. Not that it can't be done independently, but it requires a level of introspection and self-awareness that, frankly, someone who refuses to consider counseling probably doesn't have. (At some point one gains these skills and can progress without guidance, but those skills aren't instinctive.) FWIW, DC Frankly I think DryCreek hits the nail on the head here. |
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Post by McRoomMate on Jun 16, 2017 16:56:43 GMT -5
OK maybe this has been said and done a 1000 times already. 1. Talk about it with your H? 2. Go to counselling? 3. Go away for a week-end even if it is to a Motel 8 off the next exit ramp. Do you still love him and want be a HAPPY COUPLE in LOVE? Does He? Then maybe it is worth making efforts. And the obvious too obvious - "It Take Two to Make a Thing Go Right" - you both have to want it and desire it. Personally, yes, I heard a lot of this from my W - she needed to feel desired and loved - the "sex" begins hours before the bed chamber - it is an all day thing and a BAROMETER of the health of the couple. If the SEXLESSNESS is there it 99 out of a 100 is but a SYMPTOM of deeper problems - It don't matter who is the Refuser or the Refused - because these roles as we see can interchange. My nose is running but the problem aint my nose it is a cold virus in my blood. my knee hurts - but it aint my knee it is my Iliot Tibial band that runs from my back bone to my heel. The marriage is sexless but it aint the lack of sex that is CAUSING the sexlessness - it is something somewhere else. I have brought up him and I going to joint therapy and he has flat refused. I may try again on my end and see if a third time will be of any help. We are going on vacation in a little over a week and maybe, I doubt for a weekend, but maybe for a few hours since we're staying with family, he and I could do something together. We'll see. My W refused therapy too. I did not push it but when I brought it up she basically said "Hell No" in her own way. My problem was there were so many years of SM and lack of intimacy - I sort of "woke up" and realized what I thought was "normal" was a total lack of a "Couple Life" . . . I will take the blame for my share and probably a bigger share than hers. Still, it was beyond "who is at fault" and just accepting that it was not working any more and had not worked for a long time. I want to believe that a "Renaissance" and "Renewal" can be possible. We might have pulled the plug too early and called it too early. If you want to save your Marriage and still love your H, I think it is worth it. The fact he is not willing to make it work though really worries me about success in the matter. A word about how hard and for how long to try to make it work . . . A friend of mine who had just got out of a nasty 2 year long divorce process responded "You can try to make it work until the day you die, but then you are dead." It is a judgment call and a tough one at that. |
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Post by McRoomMate on Jun 16, 2017 17:01:45 GMT -5
Last point . . . EMPATHY
The ability to feel what the other person wants and needs and taking actions to get there. The fact that your H will not listen to your requests about getting you in the mood and so on. That really shows the heart of the problem could be a lack of EMPATHY in him towards you.
For two to make it work, I think it boils down to listening and more importantly feeling what the other needs and wants and making efforts to give him/her that.
I bet if both of you felt a massive amount of EMPATHY towards each other and acted on it towards each other. I bet the sex would be great.
I will go out on a limb and hypothesize that the cause of the sexlessness is a deep lack of empathy between you two.
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Post by McRoomMate on Jun 16, 2017 17:24:33 GMT -5
I honestly think it is hard to hear the truth sometimes, no matter if you are the refuser or the refused. Most of us are the refused, and I commend you for trying to see the flip side of the situation. It is hard to hear the refuser's perspective and it probably triggers a lot of emotions for some of us, so this may not be the most positive support group for you. I think the most important take away is that, as McRoomate said, "It takes two to Make a thing go right" (btw that song is now stuck in my head for the day, thanks for that  . It is all about choices. You are choosing to refuse, and he is choosing to be the refused. Toxic mix, but I think it is healthy to see the other side for all of us. I am certainly NO EXPERT, and I am not trying to be one, but I truly have learned a lot from this group of people. Sometimes it is hard to take a step back and truly reflect. Please foregive . . . I cannot resist.  |
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Post by northstarmom on Jun 16, 2017 17:35:45 GMT -5
"The fact he is not willing to make it work though really worries me about success in the matter."
We don't know he is not willing to make it work. We know that she doesn't want to use a therapist. We have only heard her side of the story. Possibly some of the spouses of the refused who are here could say similar things that would indicate the fault lies with the refused.I doubt if many marriages fail because of only one spouse's actions. I know I did some wrong things in my marriage. I just hope that I have developed the wisdom not to make the same mistakes in my current relationship. Thus far I haven't. I'm not perfect, but I'm a more mature and good partner than I was in my marriage.
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Post by bran127 on Jun 16, 2017 17:45:17 GMT -5
I honestly think it is hard to hear the truth sometimes, no matter if you are the refuser or the refused. Most of us are the refused, and I commend you for trying to see the flip side of the situation. It is hard to hear the refuser's perspective and it probably triggers a lot of emotions for some of us, so this may not be the most positive support group for you. I think the most important take away is that, as McRoomate said, "It takes two to Make a thing go right" (btw that song is now stuck in my head for the day, thanks for that . It is all about choices. You are choosing to refuse, and he is choosing to be the refused. Toxic mix, but I think it is healthy to see the other side for all of us. I am certainly NO EXPERT, and I am not trying to be one, but I truly have learned a lot from this group of people. Sometimes it is hard to take a step back and truly reflect. Please foregive . . . I cannot resist. |
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Post by bran127 on Jun 16, 2017 17:48:57 GMT -5
Hahaha!!!! Damn you McRooMate!!!!That just isn't right!!😂
PS - I can't figure out this quote thing so forgive the multiple posts!
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Post by lyn on Jun 16, 2017 21:12:54 GMT -5
tiffanyc Please don't leave, and, please don't take the responses by our fellow members (to your previous post) as negatively as you might be. The beauty of this forum is that the membership is consistently kind, empathetic, and quite importantly, forthright with observations of our fellow members experiences relating to their own sm's. Sometimes these observations can strike a nerve. Sometimes we might *feel* judged - which is a terrible. For me, feeling judged or scrutinized in anyway is the WORST! I'm here to tell you Tiffany, I think we need you here. You're perspective does differ from the majority of the membership. You're perspective is eye-opening to many of us. Imho, your relationship seems to deep in the "counter refusal" stage. Your husband starring as the *Counter Refuser Extraordinaire*. Please don't take this as a blasé statement. This is honestly how it appears to me - based on MY own experiences - my own perspective. Of course I could be completely off-base, but, this is how I see it. There have been many masterful, tactical ideas sent your way in regards to how to get your h back in the sex-loop with you. GREAT ideas that to me, as a refused spouse for many years and more recently a counter-refuser, break me heart a little. The advice I give to you, fwiw, is have a genuine, difficult, uncomfortable conversation with your husband who you obviously love dearly. Tell him that you KNOW you've refused him. Tell him you want AN intimate and sexual relationship with him - more than anything. Tell him you love him - tell him how attracted you are to him. Come from a perspective of *self*, i.e, how you feel and what you want / need. Try to avoid telling him what he needs to do - or what he isn't doing. You can only control yourself. The closest one can come to changing another's behavior is by changing our own behavior which can, potentially, elicit change in another. Just *do* you. Be as authentic as you can. If you feel like greeting him when he comes home from work dressed in a whipped-cream bikini then great! Do that, if it's YOU. Just try a paired-down, simple conversation about the real real. I'm sorry, but, if things don't get real - things aren't going to get better anytime soon. Tactical maneuvers can come off as manipulative. Anyway - these are my 2c. xx
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Post by tiffanyc on Jun 16, 2017 21:15:43 GMT -5
tiffanyc Please don't leave, and, please don't take the responses by our fellow members (to your previous post) as negatively as you might be. The beauty of this forum is that the membership is consistently kind, empathetic, and quite importantly, forthright with observations of our fellow members experiences relating to their own sm's. Sometimes these observations can strike a nerve. Sometimes we might *feel* judged - which is a terrible. For me, feeling judged or scrutinized in anyway is the WORST! I'm here to tell you Tiffany, I think we need you here. You're perspective does differ from the majority of the membership. You're perspective is eye-opening to many of us. Imho, your relationship seems to deep in the "counter refusal" stage. Your husband starring as the *Counter Refuser Extraordinaire*. Please don't take this as a blasé statement. This is honestly how it appears to me - based on MY own experiences - my own perspective. Of course I could be completely off-base, but, this is how I see it. There have been many masterful, tactical ideas sent your way in regards to how to get your h back in the sex-loop with you. GREAT ideas that to me, as a refused spouse for many years and more recently a counter-refuser, break me heart a little. The advice I give to you, fwiw, is have a genuine, difficult, uncomfortable conversation with your husband who you obviously love dearly. Tell him that you KNOW you've refused him. Tell him you want AN intimate and sexual relationship with him - more than anything. Tell him you love him - tell him how attracted you are to him. Come from a perspective of *self*, i.e, how you feel and what you want / need. Try to avoid telling him what he needs to do - or what he isn't doing. You can only control yourself. The closest one can come to changing another's behavior is by changing our own behavior which can, potentially, elicit change in another. Just *do* you. Be as authentic as you can. If you feel like greeting him when he comes home from work dressed in a whipped-cream bikini then great! Do that, if it's YOU. Just try a paired-down, simple conversation about the real real. I'm sorry, but, if things don't get real - things aren't going to get better anytime soon. Tactical maneuvers can come off as manipulative. Anyway - these are my 2c. xx Thanks lyn. I guess I have a lot of thinking to do. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2017 22:53:04 GMT -5
As usual, I disappear for a couple of days and all hell breaks loose. IIRC, tiffanyc is a refusing spouse who is concerned about the state of her marriage. I will go through the threads and try to catch up. But I will say this: for any improvement to be made, both parties have to care how the other one feels. As I look back now, the cracks in my relationship with Mr. Kat occurred every time one of us didn't care how the other one felt. (And, yes, I plead guilty to sometimes being selfish and not caring how he felt.) |
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Post by DryCreek on Jun 16, 2017 22:59:08 GMT -5
Come from a perspective of *self*, i.e, how you feel and what you want / need. Try to avoid telling him what he needs to do - or what he isn't doing. This. Not to say you need to lay down and take the blame - far from it. The key is making statements about how you feel, what you need, and what you aspire the relationship to be - these are indisputable facts. He can't argue with how you feel, even if he believes he's doing all the right things. Even if he's deserving of a lashing, how it's presented makes a difference. "You grope me all the time and XYZ" - this leads to debate and arguing. "When you grope me, it makes me feel like ABC" - this can't be argued. He may try to dispute that he does it, or his intention behind it, but he can't argue your point that it makes you feel bad. |
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Post by mrslowmaintenance on Jun 17, 2017 0:17:53 GMT -5
As usual, I disappear for a couple of days and all hell breaks loose..) It's all your fault!!! 😉 I kid |
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. It is all about choices. You are choosing to refuse, and he is choosing to be the refused. Toxic mix, but I think it is healthy to see the other side for all of us. I am certainly NO EXPERT, and I am not trying to be one, but I truly have learned a lot from this group of people. Sometimes it is hard to take a step back and truly reflect. 
