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Post by baza on Jun 24, 2017 21:06:54 GMT -5
That's a good quote Brother csl And I figure that the choice to undertake that dissolution of a dud marriage was just as difficult in Luthers' day as it is now. I figure that back in Luthers' day, to "let the situation be known to others so that her stubbornness becomes a matter of common knowledge and is rebuked before the congregation" would have been logistically difficult, whereas now days you could do that via facebook. In any event, I figure that bringing a marriage to an end in 1522, 495 years ago, would have been as big a difficult choice then as it is now. And such a choice is likely going to be no easier for someone undertaking it in say another 495 years in 2512. I think that whether - or not - you have the imprimatur of the church and / or the state to end a marriage doesn't really help in the emotional maelstrom you have to deal with if you make that choice. It's going to hurt like hell either way. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 12:37:05 GMT -5
You can always cite Martin Luther, the great reformer, as authority for your choice. In 1522, he wrote a tract/essay entitled The Estate of Marriage. In it, he gives three legitimate reasons for divorce: adultery, abuse and abandonment of the marriage bed. Tell her to take it up with Luther. I have never been familiar with that essay, but it is quite interesting that a 16th century former monk gets it, but modern churches do not. |
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Post by northstarmom on Jun 26, 2017 19:02:05 GMT -5
Many modern churches do understand the importance of sex and marriage. Some churches even support sex outside of marriage.You are choosing to belong to and adhere to the beliefs of a church that does not believe in the importance of sex as part of love relationships.
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Post by baza on Jun 26, 2017 19:33:23 GMT -5
I wonder if there's a web site somewhere where the assorted religious sects put up their various positions on all manner of things so you could "shop around" for a sect that is a good fit for you. Same principal as a dating site. If I was shopping around, then the sects that ban alcohol would get a line through them straight off. The sects that ban premarital sex would get the arse straight off as well. Sects espousing a view that marriage is forever no matter what would also get the black line through them. As would sects that promote intolerance of other sects. Those ones where you are suppossed to pony up a % of your income to be a member ? Big line through them as well. TV Evangelist sects would not make my cut either. Anyway, you get the general idea. Actually, I'd probably end up with something resembling " The Church of Brother wewbwb " as was floated in here a little while back. And I would imagine that when I tried to join that flock, they'd likely tell me to piss off. Quite rightly. |
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Post by Venus Erotes on Jun 26, 2017 19:54:45 GMT -5
Ah yes... modern day Christianity...
Ah yes... Two Thousand year old Christianity
Ah yes... religion in the time of Moses and the 10 commandments.
Basic humanity was lost when we learned how to farm the land and sow our own food.
Rise up the repression and control of women and thusly preserving the inheritance of the offspring.
Keep in mind there was no birth control.
Last I checked it was 2017....
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Post by Venus Erotes on Jun 26, 2017 19:58:46 GMT -5
Btw, Two thousand years ago marriage was a legal contract of property and multiple wives were common.
I SAY TO THEE - ALL MAN MAY FUCK!
Women - fuck a man other than your legal spouse and you are summoned to death.
It's all soooo fucked up.
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Post by csl on Jun 26, 2017 20:52:25 GMT -5
Btw, Two thousand years ago marriage was a legal contract of property and multiple wives were common. I SAY TO THEE - ALL MAN MAY FUCK! Women - fuck a man other than your legal spouse and you are summoned to death. It's all soooo fucked up. So few words, so much,... well, to be blunt... ignorance. Contract? Covenant? Commitment? Yes. Property? Yes and no. You could say the same thing about alimony today, right? Oh, and if you are talking about marriage in non-Christian, non-Jewish cultures, like Greece and Rome, marriage wasn't a contract, it was shacking up. And divorce was achieved by either walking out or telling the other to get out (depends on whose hovel they were in. Multiple wives common? Oh, please! Kings, maybe. But since there was usually only one of them at a time, really not that common. "I SAY TO THEE - ALL MAN MAY FUCK!" - you want to cite chapter and verse for that one? I can give you OT citation where both were to be stoned, not just the woman. I can also show you where a man who forced sex on a woman was to be stoned, and not the woman. Not quite "ALL MAN MAY FUCK", when you get down to it. Yeah, your post was kinda screwed up. --------------------- Okay, I get that sometimes we get frustrated and just have to vent a spleen or three. But it would help if the bile be based in fact and not bias. |
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Post by wewbwb on Jun 26, 2017 21:09:38 GMT -5
I wonder if there's a web site somewhere where the assorted religious sects put up their various positions on all manner of things so you could "shop around" for a sect that is a good fit for you. Same principal as a dating site. If I was shopping around, then the sects that ban alcohol would get a line through them straight off. The sects that ban premarital sex would get the arse straight off as well. Sects espousing a view that marriage is forever no matter what would also get the black line through them. As would sects that promote intolerance of other sects. Those ones where you are suppossed to pony up a % of your income to be a member ? Big line through them as well. TV Evangelist sects would not make my cut either. Anyway, you get the general idea. Actually, I'd probably end up with something resembling " The Church of Brother wewbwb " as was floated in here a little while back. And I would imagine that when I tried to join that flock, they'd likely tell me to piss off. Quite rightly. the church of wewbwb has 2 rules. #1 dont be a dick. (If 5 members [lets be honest , that would be the whole church] think you acted dickishly you did) and must make "amends" as appropriate . #2 improve yourself If you think you don't need to , you are not welcome. Let me be clear, the only person not welcome in the church is the person who is never at fault , doesn't need improvement and doesn't need help. Every single other person is welcome . Always. |
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Post by Venus Erotes on Jun 26, 2017 21:20:42 GMT -5
I wonder if there's a web site somewhere where the assorted religious sects put up their various positions on all manner of things so you could "shop around" for a sect that is a good fit for you. Same principal as a dating site. If I was shopping around, then the sects that ban alcohol would get a line through them straight off. The sects that ban premarital sex would get the arse straight off as well. Sects espousing a view that marriage is forever no matter what would also get the black line through them. As would sects that promote intolerance of other sects. Those ones where you are suppossed to pony up a % of your income to be a member ? Big line through them as well. TV Evangelist sects would not make my cut either. Anyway, you get the general idea. Actually, I'd probably end up with something resembling " The Church of Brother wewbwb " as was floated in here a little while back. And I would imagine that when I tried to join that flock, they'd likely tell me to piss off. Quite rightly. the church of wewbwb has 2 rules. #1 dont be a dick. (If 5 members [lets be honest , that would be the whole church] think you acted dickishly you did) and must make "amends" as appropriate . #2 improve yourself If you think you don't need to , you are not welcome. Let me be clear, the only person not welcome in the church is the person who is never at fault , doesn't need improvement and doesn't need help. Every single other person is welcome . Always. PEACE! |
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Post by wewbwb on Jun 26, 2017 21:22:10 GMT -5
the church of wewbwb has 2 rules. #1 dont be a dick. (If 5 members [lets be honest , that would be the whole church] think you acted dickishly you did) and must make "amends" as appropriate . #2 improve yourself If you think you don't need to , you are not welcome. Let me be clear, the only person not welcome in the church is the person who is never at fault , doesn't need improvement and doesn't need help. Every single other person is welcome . Always. PEACE! Oh except the Amish. Fuck them.  |
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Post by baza on Jun 26, 2017 21:29:23 GMT -5
"Oh, prairie shit. Everybody !"
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Post by Venus Erotes on Jun 26, 2017 21:29:47 GMT -5
Btw, Two thousand years ago marriage was a legal contract of property and multiple wives were common. I SAY TO THEE - ALL MAN MAY FUCK! Women - fuck a man other than your legal spouse and you are summoned to death. It's all soooo fucked up. So few words, so much,... well, to be blunt... ignorance. Contract? Covenant? Commitment? Yes. Property? Yes and no. You could say the same thing about alimony today, right? Oh, and if you are talking about marriage in non-Christian, non-Jewish cultures, like Greece and Rome, marriage wasn't a contract, it was shacking up. And divorce was achieved by either walking out or telling the other to get out (depends on whose hovel they were in. Multiple wives common? Oh, please! Kings, maybe. But since there was usually only one of them at a time, really not that common. "I SAY TO THEE - ALL MAN MAY FUCK!" - you want to cite chapter and verse for that one? I can give you OT citation where both were to be stoned, not just the woman. I can also show you where a man who forced sex on a woman was to be stoned, and not the woman. Not quite "ALL MAN MAY FUCK", when you get down to it. Yeah, your post was kinda screwed up. --------------------- Okay, I get that sometimes we get frustrated and just have to vent a spleen or three. But it would help if the bile be based in fact and not bias. The research I've done pretty much sums up my point, but I agree, It may have been specific cultures and specific times in ancient history of which I am unsure of. Adultery in the time of Moses was cast upon the wife, not the man. The man could lay whomever he pleased as long as he married her. A woman could not have multiple husbands. Protection of property, plain and simple. I get it. It was necessary back then. Society caught up to womens lib, but the social bias against women still exists. Marry a virgin! She's a slut! All part of a double standard that commenced back when man needed to preserve the inheritance rights of his tribe in prehistoric times. Society will, I hope, catch up one day. Equality. That's all I'm saying... |
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Post by Venus Erotes on Jun 26, 2017 21:31:36 GMT -5
Oh except the Amish. Fuck them. Do they want to? Don't they enjoy fucking too? |
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Post by wewbwb on Jun 26, 2017 21:33:45 GMT -5
I'm just saying that if you have a thing about zippers, here's the door.
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Post by csl on Jun 26, 2017 21:48:09 GMT -5
The research I've done pretty much sums up my point, but I agree, It may have been specific cultures and specific times in ancient history of which I am unsure of. Adultery in the time of Moses was cast upon the wife, not the man. The man could lay whomever he pleased as long as he married her. A woman could not have multiple husbands. Protection of property, plain and simple. I get it. It was necessary back then. Society caught up to womens lib, but the social bias against women still exists. Marry a virgin! She's a slut! All part of a double standard that commenced back when man needed to preserve the inheritance rights of his tribe in prehistoric times. Society will, I hope, catch up one day. Equality. That's all I'm saying... 1 - all on the woman? Is that why Lev. 20:10 said that BOTH should be stoned? Doesn't look like the guy gets a pass, there, does it? Also, right in the Big 10, right in Ex. 20 - it doesn't say "Women, thou shalt not commit adultery." No, it doesn't give a pass to either gender. So, again, you aren't anywhere near correct. 2 - As to property rights, maybe you should check out the ketubah that was the marriage document for at least a thousand years before Christ. It basically provided for wives in case of a divorce. If you are interested in actually reading about ancient documents and practices, I recommend David Instone-Brewer's Divorce and Remarriage In The Bible. He really does a number of the "common wisdom" that you put forth in your previous post. 3 - Virgin, slut, what-have-you. It's a wash. Some people are moral, some are immoral, some are amoral. Venting your spleen because some people think that screwing around and shacking up is a sin might make you feel good, but so what? One side yells "Slut!", the other yells, "Prude!". Six of one, half a dozen of the other. |
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