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Post by shamwow on Jun 5, 2017 13:48:15 GMT -5
tiffanyc , how's communication between you otherwise? From what you describe, your libido sounds erratic. There's a good chance his romantic drive has been snuffed by your regular lack of interest. At some point, that reduces one to being uncharmingly blunt because being affectionate and subtle has stopped working. I've been close to that point many times. To be blunt myself, you're fortunate that he's still expressing his desires to you (albeit crudely) instead of throwing in the towel and looking elsewhere. I'm not saying you should have given in; however, consider that he's still on your side of the fence, despite acting desperate. That won't last. You need to discuss it. Maybe he's just being a dick and needs an attitude reset. Maybe it's a reaction to your behavior. And maybe he doesn't even understand how he's gotten to this state. It's possible that if you shine a light in the dark corner, you can both work toward a better outcome. Sadly, I've got to agree with DC here. At some point, he will stop trying. At that point, all bets are off. Read the forums here. In my case, divorce. As my sister put it "she didn't sleep with you for 3 years? What the fuck did she THINK would happen?" And from what I've read here, I'm the exception. Usually well before the multi-year point, most guys in an SM cheat. And usually, it seems to go downhill from there. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 13:54:08 GMT -5
A lot of times, by the time people reach this site, things are pretty far gone.
But you might be one of the cases that could be helped by marriage counseling.
I say this because this site overwhelmingly attracts people who want more sex than they're getting. It's been extremely rare to see a lower-libido, lower-needs spouse here - concerned enough to ask for advice about it. The fact that you care is huge. So many refusing partners don't.
One caveat about counseling: both of you have to be committed to doing the work, or nothing will happen.
And good counseling does not consist of a therapist doing a magic spell and making things perfect. It's more like taking a class, having homework assignments, and working on a group project.
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Post by tiffanyc on Jun 5, 2017 13:59:09 GMT -5
My library has the book and since I have a writer's group meeting there tonight, I'll go early and check it out. Thanks for the tip.
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Post by DryCreek on Jun 5, 2017 14:09:57 GMT -5
See, that's where it gets complicated with me. When I do want sex, or rather when it really hits, it always seems to be during the day when he's at work or when he doesn't seem interested. If he maybe tried to get me in the mood differently, things might not be so bad. But him basically groping me isn't the way to get me in a sexual mood I don't know if this would help or not, but have you heard of the 5 love languages? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Love_LanguagesSadly, I have to agree with shamwow here. ;-) Actually, it is a really good book for relationships that aren't too far gone. I also agree with @smartkat on joint counseling. And shamwow... you just haven't been groped in the park by the right person! The next guy might have much softer hands. ;-) |
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Post by beachguy on Jun 11, 2017 7:41:04 GMT -5
tiffanyc , a couple of questions... perhaps food for thought... 1. Before you were married did you enjoy being groped? Did he grope you back then and what was your reaction? 2. Before you were married how did you feel about giving him BJs and HJs? (you already answered this, it's just food for thought to make a point) Where am I going here? It is pretty clear from just this thread that YOU have significantly changed. You suggest he has changed too, no longer "romantic". But it might be worth further thought as to which of you has changed and how much. You may no longer be the woman he married and that could be a huge problem. My STBX was like you are now, she hated being groped. She had more no fly zones than Iraq. She even hated being groped during foreplay. And like you, she was apparently extremely low libido (I'm not convinced she was not always asexual, she just knew how to suck a guy into a marriage but that's another story). After 30 years I was well trained not to grope, and I was never a big groper to begin with. After I left, I found an FWB that had a HUGE libido. And she loved being groped. In fact, it upset her that I wouldn't randomly grope her during the day. The idea that she wanted to be groped was just too foreign to me to deal with well. Probably because I spent too much time in my ILIASM shithole. What I'm struggling to say is that I think your H has POSSIBLY been somewhat unfairly maligned by some of the comments here, at least on certain points. If, for example, before your marriage, you enjoyed being groped, or at least tolerated it with a believable smile, then it is YOU that has the problem here. It is YOU that changed. You've already acknowledged that your libido has taken a huge dive. It is my limited experience that women with high libidos tend to like groping (and not just that one example I gave you). But women with low libidos detest it. There are other huge differences in what high libido and low libido enjoy and what they object to. Things that might not have come up here, things you might not even think about but perhaps he has seriously noticed. I may be all wrong about the above- I'm just exploring ideas here. But if I'm right, your H is being faced with a HUGE adjustment. If I'm right, you may not be anything like the woman he married. Your H's refusal to pay for the T meds (I assume that is about money since you can take whatever drugs you want as long as you can pay the tab) may be a bad decision on his part but all part and parcel of huge frustration he feels because maybe you are simply not the woman he married and he can't deal with it. Or maybe I got it all wrong. But I suspect I've certainly been there done that in some of my behavior over the years. If I'm even remotely right here, I have no solutions for your problem. But maybe you might get some insight into his behavior. Your story sounds vaguely like my experience with my STBX, except in her case her apparent loss of libido was instantaneous, in conjunction with the wedding day, and I mean she she was very different the day before the wedding than the day after. It is possible I did not deal with that change well, at all. I may have done things I might regret now, but the frustration I felt was indescribable. It is possible your H is going through the same thing, but maybe more in a Boiling Frog way then the traumatic intro I had to marriage.
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Post by northstarmom on Jun 11, 2017 8:25:22 GMT -5
The more Tiffany posts, the more I think that she doesn't need the t-meds. This quote by her (first post in her "ugh" thread) is why I think t-meds won't solve her problem: "I hate that I'm the main one in the Marriage with little interest in sex. Well, that's not completely true. Let me elaborate. I like sex but I guess it's how H broaches the subject. Ex: "you wanna do it?" "I could really go for a bj."
Given that Tiffany has enjoyed sex chats with strangers, writes steamy romance novels, has considered having sex with an aquaintance who made a pass at her, she doesn't have a low libido. She doesn't want to fuck her husband. That's not a problem that t-meds could solve.
Perhaps marital counseling could help -- if both of them are willing to work hard. For it to work, both would need to start clearly and politely expressing their needs. They'd also have to start responding kindly to the other's communications. Right now, it seems that both communicate in ways that hurt and tick the other off. He complains about her figure, ogles other women, and ignores their anniversary. She swallows her anger about his actions, but then denies him sex due to her "low libido" (which really is anger and resentment).
The marriage includes criticism, contempt and stonewalling and probably also includes defensiveness, all of the "4 horsemen" that researcher Gottman says predict that a marriage will end in divorce.http://manchesterpsychotherapy.co.uk/relationship-break-up-horsemen-divorce/
There is hope, however, if both Tiffany and her husband are willing to go into marital counseling and to work on their marriage. Tiffany's marriage probably has a higher probability of success than do most here. That's because Tiffany is the refuser. The overwhelming majority of people here are or were the refused, and have spouses who are not willing to go into counseling or to use other means of working on their marriage.
If Tiffany's husband wants mutually fulfilling sex in their marriage, if she offers to go to counseling with him, he should be willing to do that. If, she proposes marital counseling and is willing to make the arrangements but he shoots down the idea, than her husband has the marriage he wants. That even could mean that he wants with her a marriage headed for divorce.Everybody changes over the course of their life. Spouses can learn to adapt to each other's changes or they can decide its time to let go.
I agree with beachguy's suggestion that perhaps Tiffany once loved to be groped and happily acquiesced to her husband's crude passes. They've been together since high school and most young guys are horrible lovers who haven't learned to give pleasure through foreplay. They grope, may orgasm very quickly, and typically are more interested in their own pleasure than their partner's. Most young women have no clue of what turns themselves on. Their main pleasure may consist of being desired and giving pleasure, not attaining their own climax. With age and more knowledge brought by better partners or more exposure to information about sex, men can become more sensual, giving partners and women can be more knowledgeable about their own needs, and more assertive about getting those needs met.
If due to her husband's deployments, chat rooms and reading romance novels are how TIffany developed more awareness of her sexual needs, that may be why her husband and her now view her as low libido. He may be approaching her the same way he always has. Her being turned off, not welcoming like before, may seem to both of them like she lacks sexual desire. He may view himself as a stud, and not realize that his technique is lacking.
If both are willing to go to counseling and work, it could help them evolve as a couple including evolving in terms of meeting each others' sexual needs.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 11, 2017 9:01:14 GMT -5
Tiffany also mentioned many times about wanting to hear something first. I would bet that "words of affirmation" are her love language.
I can certainly relate to that,and what a failure it's been in our marriage and family. For instance my STBX expects praise for going to work every day. She does not get that. Why? The other 8 of us in the house have our own work to do, and have our own "love languages" that need filling.
So, when she comes home from work, shuts down, and does little of anything for anyone, and expects to be served, well....That doesn't happen. It's all take, take, take, and no giving. ("well I went to work", that's all the giving she cares to do. If she was living single, guess what? she would still be going to work) No one wants to praise her or compliment her for going to work. She has also been working from home. The teens see her sit at the computer all day and have a telephone conference and listen to other employees. Now the teens are questioning her, " what do you really do all day? What makes you so tired? What's so difficult about what you do?" How does she respond? Manipulation, DARVO, she gets very defensive about it. Do you think that's going to get her,"words of affirmation?" Heck no!
Now add on top of that, when my STBX and I go out for some one on one time, a nice dinner, she talks about the kids and all about homeschool. She also told our therapists that "my conversation was useless dribble"....OUCH, I'll never forget that.
Along with someone on here posting that I am a SHITTY COMMUNICATOR....Ouch, I'll never forget that.
With over 3000 posts on here, and many other returned compliments and examples, I believe my communication is just fine. My past passivity was very strong with dealing with a manipulative controller, and a bi-polar mother. I am more and more aware of that, and work on it when dealing with others.
All steps in the healing process of a love less SM.
Tiffany you also mentioned your newspaper post. My STBX also does many "Fakebook" posts of what a wonderful time the "family" is having at Disney. I am waiting for the day when someone asks, "where's your husband? I have invited and suggested numerous other things for us to do together. She rejects those. I already spent the year of Disney with her and the family. That was okay, but there was little "us" in it. Your newspaper posting sounds like words of affirmation for yourself and to him. He got little from it, not his love language.
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Post by tiffanyc on Jun 11, 2017 9:25:26 GMT -5
tiffanyc , a couple of questions... perhaps food for thought... 1. Before you were married did you enjoy being groped? Did he grope you back then and what was your reaction? 2. Before you were married how did you feel about giving him BJs and HJs? (you already answered this, it's just food for thought to make a point) Where am I going here? It is pretty clear from just this thread that YOU have significantly changed. You suggest he has changed too, no longer "romantic". But it might be worth further thought as to which of you has changed and how much. You may no longer be the woman he married and that could be a huge problem. My STBX was like you are now, she hated being groped. She had more no fly zones than Iraq. She even hated being groped during foreplay. And like you, she was apparently extremely low libido (I'm not convinced she was not always asexual, she just knew how to suck a guy into a marriage but that's another story). After 30 years I was well trained not to grope, and I was never a big groper to begin with. After I left, I found an FWB that had a HUGE libido. And she loved being groped. In fact, it upset her that I wouldn't randomly grope her during the day. The idea that she wanted to be groped was just too foreign to me to deal with well. Probably because I spent too much time in my ILIASM shithole. What I'm struggling to say is that I think your H has POSSIBLY been somewhat unfairly maligned by some of the comments here, at least on certain points. If, for example, before your marriage, you enjoyed being groped, or at least tolerated it with a believable smile, then it is YOU that has the problem here. It is YOU that changed. You've already acknowledged that your libido has taken a huge dive. It is my limited experience that women with high libidos tend to like groping (and not just that one example I gave you). But women with low libidos detest it. There are other huge differences in what high libido and low libido enjoy and what they object to. Things that might not have come up here, things you might not even think about but perhaps he has seriously noticed. I may be all wrong about the above- I'm just exploring ideas here. But if I'm right, your H is being faced with a HUGE adjustment. If I'm right, you may not be anything like the woman he married. Your H's refusal to pay for the T meds (I assume that is about money since you can take whatever drugs you want as long as you can pay the tab) may be a bad decision on his part but all part and parcel of huge frustration he feels because maybe you are simply not the woman he married and he can't deal with it. Or maybe I got it all wrong. But I suspect I've certainly been there done that in some of my behavior over the years. If I'm even remotely right here, I have no solutions for your problem. But maybe you might get some insight into his behavior. Your story sounds vaguely like my experience with my STBX, except in her case her apparent loss of libido was instantaneous, in conjunction with the wedding day, and I mean she she was very different the day before the wedding than the day after. It is possible I did not deal with that change well, at all. I may have done things I might regret now, but the frustration I felt was indescribable. It is possible your H is going through the same thing, but maybe more in a Boiling Frog way then the traumatic intro I had to marriage. Thanks for the honesty here.😊 To answer your two questions, no he didn't gripe me before we were married. Oh maybe a bit here and there when we were fooling around but nothing like he does now. 2: I didn't have a problem back then with bj/hj. I don't have a problem with them now. I don't mind groping during foreplay or sex, in fact that's when I DO enjoy it. I know I've changed and so has he. Yet when I bring up how he used to be a bit more...affectionate ( holding hands, just cuddling, etc) he's all offensive and says he does that stuff. Um, no he doesn't but whatever. Anyway, just thought I'd reply back and I appreciate your POV. 😊 |
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Post by tiffanyc on Jun 11, 2017 10:04:27 GMT -5
Words of affirmation- I struggle with this. I know W likes to be affirmed. So do I: I can best be affirmed by ripping off of clothes. Fat chance. I don't really get verbal affirmation either. So how can I tell her good job for doing the laundry? There are times when she has done something worthy of praise and I usually give her praise then. Not going to commit flattery, though. That's one way I can be a refuser. @greatcostal is write that "words of affirmation" is one of my languages of love. I don't need to heard "good job" for laundry, dishes, etc. but some acknowledgment that while I am a housewife, I do a lot and it is a job I just don't get paid for it. He has a bad habit of point out what I DIDN'T do and that gets old when everyday there's something new being added to that list almost daily. My other language of love is touch. I would love it if he would, for no other reason than just to do it, slip me a hug, a wink, a peck on the damned forehead even! I've told him this and he's like okay whatever. As I've stated in a reply to my post yesterday during foreplay or sex I don't mind the groping, I love being touched especially during sex, but outside of it would be nice too with the blatant sexual overtones like he uses most of the time. |
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Post by h on Jun 11, 2017 12:42:12 GMT -5
Getting paid for housework sounds like a great idea! Since I do the majority of it in our house, I would like to be paid ... in BJ's!
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Post by tiffanyc on Jun 11, 2017 12:48:31 GMT -5
Getting paid for housework sounds like a great idea! Since I do the majority of it in our house, I would like to be paid ... in BJ's! Lol |
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Post by h on Jun 11, 2017 13:06:15 GMT -5
Getting paid for housework sounds like a great idea! Since I do the majority of it in our house, I would like to be paid ... in BJ's! Lol Should I submit billing weekly or on a job by job basis? |
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Post by tiffanyc on Jun 11, 2017 13:08:11 GMT -5
Should I submit billing weekly or on a job by job basis? lol I'd go weekly for starters then renegotiate after three months. |
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