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Post by Dan on Jun 4, 2017 22:28:43 GMT -5
This post is to hopefully provoke some discussion about the risk you might be running of putting yourself in a WORSE situation should you choose the cheating route. There are four main "downside risks" of seeking sexual companionship outside your marriage: - You might get caught.
- You might catch a disease.
- You might make a baby.
- You might fall in love.
There are four main "upside risks": - You might gain some self-respect/lose some doubts about yourself, sexually or otherwise.
- You might gain some clarity about your marriage, and be better able to decide your next steps.
- You might have a good time, and it make you happier, at least for certain periods.
- You might fall in love.
All of the good things happened to me. Of the bad things, only the last one happened to me.
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Post by JMX on Jun 4, 2017 22:55:20 GMT -5
I am pretty sure I AM in love with someone, although we have never met. It has changed a bit though.
At one time, I felt desperate for him and simultaneously, for my marriage to work out. It was more than a little fucked up.
With some time and distance, I don't have the same feelings I did - I am very thankful for that! I don't feel desperate anymore. I don't pine for a future together because I KNOW it won't happen.
He is back in the picture but I am not desperate for him anymore. I want to meet, and I am pretty sure I know how things will go down - but! I believe I can compartmentalize it.
Deep down, I have a tiny voice telling me that sex for me is like giving a sliver of your soul to someone. That's a lot to manage, but I have been giving chunks of my soul over 12 of the last 15 years to someone that could care less. I think I can spare another sliver.
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Post by baza on Jun 4, 2017 23:13:41 GMT -5
Pretty good summary there Brother DanThose *good* "upside risks" appear to be self evident. To me, those *bad* "downside risks" are essentially risks to the continuation of the ILIASM deal - if discovered. And it seems to me that if the risk is realised, and the ILIASM deal collapses as a result, would that necessarily be such a *bad* outcome ? |
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Post by nolongerlonely on Jun 5, 2017 3:52:57 GMT -5
@dan
Excellent list, but unless you are a serial cheat, I dont see the last one on the downside list being a downside. It just shows you to be someone who is truly looking for something that isnt at home anymore, and found it. I realise its on your upside list too though !
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Post by northstarmom on Jun 5, 2017 6:20:51 GMT -5
Getting caught might mean the loss of most things that you treasure:
Your self respect
Your family, friends' and children's respect and love
Your job and career prospects (depending on your job and who your affair partner is)
Your financial stability
Your marriage (even if you'd like it to end, would you not want it to end with this kind of heartbreak and you poking like an unquestionable bad guy?
The same could happen to your affair partner.
Sure, affairs are justifiable if your spouse unilaterally imposes a sexless marriage. You could to tell your spouse you unilaterallychose to deal with the unwanted celibacy in marriage by unilaterally opening the marriage for yourself. If your spouse won't agree, why stay with such a person with no respect for your intimacy needs? Why sneak around and put so much you care about at risk?
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Post by Dan on Jun 5, 2017 9:20:30 GMT -5
... At one time, I felt desperate for him and simultaneously, for my marriage to work out. It was more than a little fucked up. I was pretty much in the same place. He is back in the picture but I am not desperate for him anymore. I want to meet, and I am pretty sure I know how things will go down - but! I believe I can compartmentalize it. Oddly, I started out VERY capable of compartmentalizing. (My AP often commented on it, sort of impressed, sort of disconcerted...) But this was when I really felt that outsourcing was a viable, long-term supplement to getting by in an SM. Now that I believe I'm on the track to divorce, I'm surprisingly LESS interested in the mental effort required to maintain those "compartments", and therefore, not seeking outsourcing. I think I've decided that I want to spend my emotional energy on buttoning up the household, and getting myself through a divorce, emotionally. |
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Post by WindSister on Jun 5, 2017 9:58:25 GMT -5
I was also technically a cheater, though I did tell my ex I was considering an affair (he didn't believe me and as I have said a million times, I didn't laugh when I said it). I definitely did not fall in love with my AP though I really enjoyed his company, the sex (very adventurous for me!!) and the conversations, shared texts, etc. He DEFINITELY boosted my self-esteem - I mean, I can't even begin to explain how much. Like Bballgirl, I also asked a ton of questions and implored him for total honesty about my abilities (not fishing for compliments, I wanted the truth and wanted to improve if need be).
I got to a point I didn't like the sneaking around part at all, it was going against what I wanted from life moving forward - transparency, honesty, living in the light. I don't want to ever feel I have to hide my phone or have passcodes or anything like that. I don't ever want to have to duck while we are driving (that part really got to me and was the last straw for me actually).
I questioned my own ability to live happily in a monogamous relationship after my adventures, recalling what I heard David Lee Roth say about his own issues with enjoying "normal sex" after all his out-of-this-world experiences. Like, once you open Pandora's Box kind of thing.... but actually all of my experiences have enhanced my sexual life with my husband and the need to cheat is simply not there. Couple that with our shared intention of staying together and making this work, doing the work - it's just not a factor right now. I say right now because we can't ever assume issues won't arise or someone might sneak in when one of is vulnerable. I hope that doesn't happen though. I hope we don't LET IT happen. But I know what goes on out in the world now, naivety is not quite there like it used to be and I will never just assume anything. I trust him, but I can't say "He would never".... For myself, though, I know I would just end it with my husband before letting someone else in again. I would be quicker to end something that is not working (I firmly believe this). Until then, I protect us (as does he) from outsiders.
I think of my ex-AP's wife, though-- how does she not know??? Like, HOW?? Are you that tuned out from your partner??? Must be (well, it's why he cheats, she doesn't like sex, they even sleep in separate rooms). He was with someone before me that he did fall mad-head-over-heels in love with. He was ready to leave, move for her. Then she dropped a bombshell on him and trust was destroyed. He never did tell me what it was. But from that experience he learned to be more guarded, more careful. He was ten years older than me (so he'd be 53 now) and he said he's never leaving his wife. I don't know if that is still true as we don't keep in touch. He's one of three men that I said goodbye to before disappearing, deleting/blocking numbers from my phone.
Things definitely got messy for me with another man I got involved with as we were both ending our marriages. But, looking back? All I can do is kinda chuckle, shake my head and say, "Well, duh...." It's all good.
Then I had one man as a FWB who was single. He was so sweet to me. He wasn't as experienced or as adventurous as my AP, but he would always meet up with me if I called and asked. Not going to lie, when you are lonely on a Friday night? Not a horrible option to have. Things with my AP had to be so planned and calculated, during the day... etc.... but with FWB it was spontaneous.
I guess I was needy as I was healing from divorce. Along with the attention of these men, I also did work on being alone and being okay with that. I did the hiking solo thing, camping solo. But these moments with these men helped too. I can't even lie about that, they helped a lot.
I just wish I had written my book before I got married again because thinking about those experiences feels like cheating to me and I would need to think of them to write them. I have talked about things here and there with my husband but he claims he prefers ignorance when it comes to those experiences. I don't blame him. We like to feel special with our partner and too many details about past lovers can cloud that specialness in our minds. So I feel I really can't explore the writing of it now. I know there's a story there, though and I would like to be able to be totally honest about it all - the messiness, ugliness and all. But, it's not a unique story -- lol. So maybe I don't need to write it. It just feels unique to me.
Anyway -- risks? Yeah, I took them. Very happy about that!!
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Post by Apocrypha on Jun 5, 2017 11:14:31 GMT -5
The best available evidence comes from those members who HAVE chosen the cheat option, and lived to tell the tale, be it a good or bad tale. [...] The risk in cheating is that the introduction of a 3rd party into an already dysfunctional relationship will almost certainly fundamentally change the situation within your ILIASM shithole - and that, is not necessarily a bad thing. However the "risk" is that the changes are wildly unpredictable, and pretty much unmanageable. I can add a practical example of what that looks like. When the "intimacy-averse" Mrs Apocrypha decided to cheat with her hired, married, contract worker across a summer, things blew up in expected ways for everyone. For example, the guilt and her shame with her acts fed a drinking problem, as she struggled dealing with her situation of feeling trapped in a marriage she didn't want. I know, from speaking to her affair partner (later) that he was extremely surprised when she called him, drunk and in crisis, to come over to the house to talk (as a friend) when I was out. Concerned for her (she'd hinted suicide, as she does when "in crisis") he came over. I know that he was surprised when she tried, when I arrived, to cleanse her conscience and admit the affair to me with him sitting there. In her drunken stupor, she thought I'd be ok with it somehow. When I didn't clue in right away and asked him to leave so I could talk to her, he left in a panic, realizing he had minutes, seconds, before I put it all together. When I did find out, I contacted him over social media and gave him a set amount of time to tell his wife, or I would tell her for him. This surprised him, and he tried to threaten me by "exposing the affair" to my friends and family (to which I responded that I would save him the trouble if he felt that was necessary - and expose her affair with him myself if he thought that would be helpful - also to his workplace and clients). He tried to sever social media then, so I contacted his wife immediately rather than waiting. I can tell you that in his mind (because I spoke to him a year later), he'd been fed an absurd narrative about our situation, so far from the kernal of truth that it was a near fabrication. I can tell you that he had thought himself a hero in our family situation - like he'd been saving her life somehow, and thought I would be thankful for his participation and support of my wife during that time. I also know that my contacting of his wife (who blamed ME, btw, for my wife's behavior with her husband, who she somehow saw as less responsible), wreaked havoc on his family life and near adult children for the better part of a year. They also shared a business and he was supported by her, mainly, so that changed things on their end. And as for my then-wife, basically threw out marriage as it was and any semblance of normal out the window permanently until I eventually ended it. Regardless of whatever she felt she got from this fella, it never solved the problems of our own marriage and the situation she was in. I can tell you from what I observed, and what I later found to be normal in these kinds of things, during the period of the affair, she became astoundingly mean spirited and conflict oriented, making excuses to pick fights (eg. screaming at me for dirtying the kitchen pots with the fancy dinner I cooked for her). While in her mind, she described thinking she had a clear view of things finally, she later realized that she was actually trying to make things much much worse, reaching for the most unlikely and unreasonable methods to display contempt and provoke a conflict that would result in a fight that she could use to then justify (to herself) leaving, while at the same time enjoying the feeling of being a martyr. The thing with an affair - it's easier to imagine the idea of being caught by accident (and she was being sloppy enough that I was becoming suspicious and had asked her once or twice) - so people are careful. But careful seems to be weighed against the idea of someone with little suspicion, rather than against someone who is actively suspicious and taking measures to find out. But beyond that, I don't think we imagine that the affair will affect our OWN mindset and behavior to the extent it does, in which we might come to a place where we end up volunteering information, or blurting it out in weaponized form in a fight with one's spouse. If you are having an affair with someone, you don't really know (Mrs Apocrypha's affair partner certainly was surprised) what is -actually true about your partner's situation, -what they might do or offer to their spouse within the course of a spousal conflict, about you - either in trying a sudden "confess everything" about face, or game changing conflict tactic -whether their partner is *actively* trying to find out about an affair, about *you* -what their partner will do or is capable of doing, in the age of social media, to you |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 14:43:48 GMT -5
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Post by wewbwb on Jun 5, 2017 16:23:15 GMT -5
I want to meet, and I am pretty sure I know how things will go down - but! I believe I can compartmentalize it. "things" or "he" ? Because it's not "him" going down on you, it's a waste of time and guilty feelings. Just remember - you don't need to compartmentalize a platonic meeting. You need to compartmentalize "the way he threw jmx down on the bed, ripped her clothes off and dove between her legs, so fast and hard, she got sunburned." Grab his hair like a steering wheel. |
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Post by Venus Erotes on Jun 5, 2017 20:03:49 GMT -5
Hahahaha!!!! You have NO idea how much I LOVE this statement! (((HUGS))) wewbwb Not as much as I did. Not even close . *SNORT!* You're probably right  |
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Post by sweetplumeria on Jun 6, 2017 3:30:31 GMT -5
I really want to add to this discussion. What to say though.... alot of good things have been addressed.
Its hard to believe its 2017. I cant remember when I joined EP but it was more of a game changer for me than any affair. To be allowed to explore a topic that is so socially hidden. I haven't been to therapy but I imagine its similar. I went through so many evolutions and like a bad addiction often found myself emotionally starting over again. The rollercoaster of outsourcing began in october of 2010. My current statis; still married,no sex in marriage for 4 almost 5 years now.
I am not sure what all this says about me. I am human. I have human needs and experiences.
A few points. The refusing spouse would want to know that your cheating. I could be wrong but I believe my spouse wants a story to tell people. He wants me to help him keep the appearance of our marriage. We once did talk of open marriage but it felt like a trap and i didnt have the guts to say, this is what i want. Probably because we both knew I wanted out and my side of the conversation was more about having my own place to live.
When I first had sex outside of my marriage, I really thought no one would want me. I am not saying this out of self pity. I believed it. But I hate the idea of labeling my situation further so i let that lie. Not only did I land a guy for the night, he thought i was 6 to 7 years younger and i was definitely flattered. With my self esteem boosted and began my journey into compartmentalization, realization, and probably numerous things i havent thought of. When i began i didnt care if i got caught. Frankly I felt suicidal back then and literally felt like I didnt have much to loose. I am glad those are memories now.
The sexual exploits, affairs, loves, compartments... it all helped me grow and learn alot. I learned how to ask, expect, and believe in what I need. I learned how complex my needs are. I learned that one human might not fill all my needs and decide if I can come to terms with who i am and what kind of future i want. Be that with someone or not.
The one thing I know for certain, I have been lucky. Are you thinking yeah to not get caught? Perhaps that is one answer. Another is that I have lived my life with a richness of human experience, be that good bad or indifferent. When I look back at my life, I will have lived it authentically for me and no one will ever approve or know its value, except me.
So on the value of cheating, I believe it to be relative to who you are at the time you are doing it.
This whole response may be colored by the fact that i have a stable AP of 4 years who accepts me and my situation.
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Post by baza on Jun 6, 2017 4:21:59 GMT -5
In regard to the risk of getting caught, and ONLY the issue of getting caught, and presupposing you take basic precautions against detection - - -
If it's a *one night stand* or single *opportunistic* fuck, your chances of getting caught are pretty negligible.
In a casual *FWB* scenario where the cheating level rises, so does your risk of detection. But your risk is still relatively low.
In a full on affair where the cheating level goes up a lot, so does your risk. But even then your risk is < 50% I reckon.
Bear in mind, that there are plenty of other risks inherent in the cheating scenario that impact on your marriage that have nothing to do with getting caught.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jun 6, 2017 11:02:57 GMT -5
In regard to the risk of getting caught, and ONLY the issue of getting caught, and presupposing you take basic precautions against detection - - - If it's a *one night stand* or single *opportunistic* fuck, your chances of getting caught are pretty negligible. In a casual *FWB* scenario where the cheating level rises, so does your risk of detection. But your risk is still relatively low. In a full on affair where the cheating level goes up a lot, so does your risk. But even then your risk is < 50% I reckon. Bear in mind, that there are plenty of other risks inherent in the cheating scenario that impact on your marriage that have nothing to do with getting caught. That's true. I think the biggest overlooked risk in cheating though - with respect to getting caught - is in the assumption of pulling one over on a spouse who doesn't suspect anything. There is a big difference in risk between a spouse who isn't really aware of an infidelity vs a spouse who has twigged that there might be something wrong with the marriage. The latter may take active measures to expose the infidelity. - following - private eye - hiding their phone in your car and tracking it - semen tests in dirty underwear - keyloggers, history searches, phone records - history searches - interrogating shared friends - asking a lot of details about whereabouts and friends - showing up where they are not expected And, as you often mention - it doesn't solve the problem that your marriage is intimacy averse. Nor, really, does an open relationship. The seductive thinking is that you get romance etc from other people and keep the benefits of marriage. If it was only that perfect. The reality of the open relationship is that, much like an affair, it can end up shining a light on something you are missing from your marriage that you need, and that you won't necessarily get from the affair if you dump the marriage and switch horses to the affair partner, due to the change in focus and circumstance. You get sex in your life, but you still are left with the question of what marriage brings to the table as opposed to, say, an amicable separation - which might bring more opportunities. Both an affair and an open relationship can assist in switching your thinking - not so much the circumstance of the sex as it is the matter of having the sex - can show you that you can be desired by a person. It's not the format of the relationship that's important but rather the result of it. And another thing that's helpful, I think - if one is prepared to back it up and withstand the unpredictable consequences - I'd say offering the option of an open relationship as an alternative to divorce might be in the same category of game-changing-while-leaving-room-to-work-on-it as maybe offering a therapeutic separation as an alternate to divorce. That is to say, it changes the "default" game of celibacy and spikes the ball of choice into your spouse's camp. THEY need to decide on how important it is that YOU don't have sex and weigh that against divorce. I think it helps to focus on the truth of the relationship. |
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Post by lifeinwoodinville on Jun 7, 2017 21:27:52 GMT -5
I outsourced once with my exAP. I planned it very carefully over about three months. It took place in another city, where I have a cousin living nearby that I was "visiting". I found a unique event in the area, a chocolate show, that was occurring the same weekend that my exAP would be in town. And my ultimate reason for going was that my psychologist suggested that I take a vacation by myself and go do something (or someone) for me.
It worked out perfectly, well, at least the plan did. Meeting the exAP didn't go as well as I had hoped. But the plan, that worked beautifully!
A couple of side notes. My wife bought my airline ticket with her frequent flyer miles. I never actually went to the chocolate show, the special event that I had to go that weekend for, no one ever noticed or questioned me about it.
I have thought long and hard about outsourcing since then. The big question being "Would I do it again?" I think the answer to that is "Yes", but it would take a very unique person for that to happen again.
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