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Post by shamwow on Apr 26, 2017 14:05:32 GMT -5
First of all, good job taking about it! Now I'm going to ask some things here 1. Did she acknowledge all of the cuddling/hand holding/touch changes you have made since your last talk? Is she saying she needs more of that or that that is all she wants from you? 2. Based on her saying she likes sex, things about it and enjoys it, have you thought she may be having an affair? 3. If getting pregnant is a concern, have you considered a vasectomy? 4. What do you mean when you said this "what would stop me from wanting to go all the way which then she says that's what she thinks about when it comes to sex"? I'm unsure what you/she means about going all the way, what's all the way? Sex? Because that would be a big f*"kin duh! I totally agree with #4. If the point of the conversation is to figure out why you aren't having sex and the concerns is that if you fool around you might have sex...I think that is kind of your answer. |
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Post by unmatched on Apr 26, 2017 19:41:59 GMT -5
So a follow up to the beginning of this thread. Last night, I made another attempt to open the lines of communication about our SM. It seemed to be off to a good start with me simply asking the question, is there something going on now that has caused our sex life to become non-existent? She started off with what i would say are the best intentions. But as the conversation went on I became aware of the fact that not once did she outwardly say the words "I do want to have sex with you". She said several times that she does enjoy sex, she thinks about sex, she likes sex....but not once did she ever come out and say specifically that she wanted to have sex with me. She went on the explain about the interpretation of intimacy from a women's view point and a mans view point and we are more than likely on different ends of the intimacy spectrum. She wants the holding hands, cuddling, sneak a kiss in from time to time intimacy and her believe was my interpretation of intimacy was just getting in on every time I wanted to or felt like it. Couldn't be further than the truth. I picked up on this our last go round of conversations about SM. So, i made the adjustments. I do hold her hand, i do give back massages with out any intentions of wanting or initiating sex, i do cuddle next to her on the couch.....so where did i miss the part about her wanting to have sex with me. Oh yeah I didn't miss it because she never said it. Then she goes on to talk about the biggest hindrance which would be getting pregnant again and not wanting to. And she all but admitted that she has never been in a position to enjoy sex without a purpose, meaning when we were trying to get pregnant she enjoyed it because that was the reason for having sex, before we were trying to get pregnant we were having sex and she enjoyed it because she was on birth control so for her now she can't enjoy it without thinking omg what if i get pregnant. When i pressed her for the option of 'there are other things we can do that don't involve the D in the P' she all but avoided that as well saying that we were to do that what would stop me from wanting to go all the way which then she says that's what she thinks about when it comes to sex. I guess the point to this follow up is that it is slowly becoming more clear to me that I am not the reason but she is and will never take ownership of it. I just feel as if i can get on the right track of conversation I can kick the door in and she will all but be exposed and come clean about it all. Thoughts...... It sounds as though you feel this was a very unsatisfactory conversation. But in reality you are both communicating your positions very clearly. She doesn't want to come out and say 'I don't really want to have sex with you', but nor does she want to lead you on or suggest that she does. So she is telling you exactly how she feels. So the next question is why do you need her to come out and say it explicitly? And what difference will it make to your situation? |
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 27, 2017 8:51:38 GMT -5
It sounds as though you feel this was a very unsatisfactory conversation. But in reality you are both communicating your positions very clearly. She doesn't want to come out and say 'I don't really want to have sex with you', but nor does she want to lead you on or suggest that she does. So she is telling you exactly how she feels. So the next question is why do you need her to come out and say it explicitly? And what difference will it make to your situation?You know, having her admit it or even say it makes it real not just for me but for her as well. And that would be at the point that I know she was being 100% honest with me and herself. |
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 27, 2017 9:39:06 GMT -5
So a follow up to the beginning of this thread. Last night, I made another attempt to open the lines of communication about our SM. It seemed to be off to a good start with me simply asking the question, is there something going on now that has caused our sex life to become non-existent? She started off with what i would say are the best intentions. But as the conversation went on I became aware of the fact that not once did she outwardly say the words "I do want to have sex with you". She said several times that she does enjoy sex, she thinks about sex, she likes sex....but not once did she ever come out and say specifically that she wanted to have sex with me. She went on the explain about the interpretation of intimacy from a women's view point and a mans view point and we are more than likely on different ends of the intimacy spectrum. She wants the holding hands, cuddling, sneak a kiss in from time to time intimacy and her believe was my interpretation of intimacy was just getting in on every time I wanted to or felt like it. Couldn't be further than the truth. I picked up on this our last go round of conversations about SM. So, i made the adjustments. I do hold her hand, i do give back massages with out any intentions of wanting or initiating sex, i do cuddle next to her on the couch.....so where did i miss the part about her wanting to have sex with me. Oh yeah I didn't miss it because she never said it. Then she goes on to talk about the biggest hindrance which would be getting pregnant again and not wanting to. And she all but admitted that she has never been in a position to enjoy sex without a purpose, meaning when we were trying to get pregnant she enjoyed it because that was the reason for having sex, before we were trying to get pregnant we were having sex and she enjoyed it because she was on birth control so for her now she can't enjoy it without thinking omg what if i get pregnant. When i pressed her for the option of 'there are other things we can do that don't involve the D in the P' she all but avoided that as well saying that we were to do that what would stop me from wanting to go all the way which then she says that's what she thinks about when it comes to sex. I guess the point to this follow up is that it is slowly becoming more clear to me that I am not the reason but she is and will never take ownership of it. I just feel as if i can get on the right track of conversation I can kick the door in and she will all but be exposed and come clean about it all. Thoughts...... It sounds as though you feel this was a very unsatisfactory conversation. But in reality you are both communicating your positions very clearly. She doesn't want to come out and say 'I don't really want to have sex with you', but nor does she want to lead you on or suggest that she does. So she is telling you exactly how she feels. So the next question is why do you need her to come out and say it explicitly? And what difference will it make to your situation? If she were to openly say the words then i guess it would be like the huge sigh of relief not just for me but for her as well. I am still vested in the relationship enough to want to have the conversation and to figure out what can be done if anything to fix it. One of my biggest concerns in all of this SM issues is the complete and utter honesty about it from her side. Other than all but saying it continues to give her the out of continuing down the same road whereas if and when she finally openly can say it, IF, that is truly her honest answer and position in this whole issue then we can start the next stage of either rebuild or go our seperate ways. But until she can stop tip toeing around and sugar coat things or speak in generalizations then we will spin on the wheel. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 27, 2017 10:49:27 GMT -5
I just feel as if i can get on the right track of conversation I can kick the door in and she will all but be exposed and come clean about it all. Thoughts...... Your stated goal is to ...what... have her admit to not wanting sex with you? What happens after that? If you are confused about a person's intentions because they seem inconsistent or misaligned with the situation or the goals as you thought them (to be romantic partners), then instead consider the result of their actions. Consider that her goal is to not have sex with you. It's easy to complicate that by jumping to "how do I get her to want sex with me?". I think it's worth planting a flag on the first point - that the goal is not to have sex with you, and figure out what that means to you first, rather than how to change it. Why isn't SHE putting the effort into changing it? If her behavior shows an intent to avoid sex with you (and it does), then how will your plans and discussions turn out? Your last point indicates that she is already at a point where she is proposing non-sexual intimacy to pre-empt sexual intimacy. Carried farther, her logic will eventually cross to ALL intimacy so as not to "lead you on". She is also portraying you as the typical "all you ever think about is sex" role. It's an attempt to shame you out of pushing farther. It also telegraphs the way your sexuality is perceived and appreciated by her - as in "not at all". It's something to be managed. Not once, have I ever seen "the talk" result in any demonstrable change that lasts beyond two weeks. The only thing I have ever seen to move the needle once sex has gone off is a real, imminent consequence. Having an uncomfortable "talk" once in a while becomes a manageable cost that can be strung out for years and years. If you want it taken as serious as you take it, the only thing you can do is begin acting as if it is serious. It begins with the unpacking the idea that you DON'T have a romantic relationship with that woman. You have an intimate one, but not a romantic one that includes sexual expression. You've already "tried everything", so this is a good place to plant your camp. What do you DO with that? If you were living with someone with whom you don't have such a relationship, then how would you behave? Move out of the bed. It's not about "take that". It's about getting some restful sleep and helping you adjust to your reality vs the constant disappointment that is fixed to the expectation that the heavens will align and you will miss it. You don't sleep with your roommate. What is the reason you are sleeping in the same bed with her? Married? Take off the ring. See how you feel after a while. It's not about how SHE feels about it. It's how YOU feel as you aim to market correct your relationship back to its true value. Want sex? Ready for the nuclear option? With as much pain as I experienced, I think that nothing smacked the truth into our situation better than the sincere pitch to open the relationship. When meant seriously, with a date with a person imminent, it was a total game changer that cut through the "default celibacy" non-ownership of our choices more than anything else. Introducing the notion of "We don't need to choose celibacy" if we don't want sex with each other, really brings things to a head in a way that an affair doesn't until it is found out. It reveals the truth of the situation without the cluttering bullshit. She doesn't want to bang you? ok. So is it important that you don't bang anyone else, if she doesn't want you? Why is that? What's marriage bringing to the table here, as opposed to, say, amicable ex-spouses and co-parents? |
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Post by shamwow on Apr 27, 2017 10:57:46 GMT -5
I just feel as if i can get on the right track of conversation I can kick the door in and she will all but be exposed and come clean about it all. Thoughts...... Your stated goal is to ...what... have her admit to not wanting sex with you? What happens after that? If you are confused about a person's intentions because they seem inconsistent or misaligned with the situation or the goals as you thought them (to be romantic partners), then instead consider the result of their actions. Consider that her goal is to not have sex with you. It's easy to complicate that by jumping to "how do I get her to want sex with me?". I think it's worth planting a flag on the first point - that the goal is not to have sex with you, and figure out what that means to you first, rather than how to change it. Why isn't SHE putting the effort into changing it? If her behavior shows an intent to avoid sex with you (and it does), then how will your plans and discussions turn out? Your last point indicates that she is already at a point where she is proposing non-sexual intimacy to pre-empt sexual intimacy. Carried farther, her logic will eventually cross to ALL intimacy so as not to "lead you on". She is also portraying you as the typical "all you ever think about is sex" role. It's an attempt to shame you out of pushing farther. It also telegraphs the way your sexuality is perceived and appreciated by her - as in "not at all". It's something to be managed. Not once, have I ever seen "the talk" result in any demonstrable change that lasts beyond two weeks. The only thing I have ever seen to move the needle once sex has gone off is a real, imminent consequence. Having an uncomfortable "talk" once in a while becomes a manageable cost that can be strung out for years and years. If you want it taken as serious as you take it, the only thing you can do is begin acting as if it is serious. It begins with the unpacking the idea that you DON'T have a romantic relationship with that woman. You have an intimate one, but not a romantic one that includes sexual expression. You've already "tried everything", so this is a good place to plant your camp. What do you DO with that? If you were living with someone with whom you don't have such a relationship, then how would you behave? Move out of the bed. It's not about "take that". It's about getting some restful sleep and helping you adjust to your reality vs the constant disappointment that is fixed to the expectation that the heavens will align and you will miss it. You don't sleep with your roommate. What is the reason you are sleeping in the same bed with her? Married? Take off the ring. See how you feel after a while. It's not about how SHE feels about it. It's how YOU feel as you aim to market correct your relationship back to its true value. Want sex? Ready for the nuclear option? With as much pain as I experienced, I think that nothing smacked the truth into our situation better than the sincere pitch to open the relationship. When meant seriously, with a date with a person imminent, it was a total game changer that cut through the "default celibacy" non-ownership of our choices more than anything else. Introducing the notion of "We don't need to choose celibacy" if we don't want sex with each other, really brings things to a head in a way that an affair doesn't until it is found out. It reveals the truth of the situation without the cluttering bullshit. She doesn't want to bang you? ok. So is it important that you don't bang anyone else, if she doesn't want you? Why is that? What's marriage bringing to the table here, as opposed to, say, amicable ex-spouses and co-parents? Got to agree on the move out of the bed part. I moved from a comfy king sized bed to a $45 piece of shit air mattress in my study. And even on that thing (complete with a star wars comforter as padding...makes my 44 year old self feel 10), I get a better quality sleep than I did on the comfy bed with someone whose very presence frustrated me to fitful and wakeful tossing and turning. |
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 27, 2017 11:35:13 GMT -5
I just feel as if i can get on the right track of conversation I can kick the door in and she will all but be exposed and come clean about it all. Thoughts...... Your stated goal is to ...what... have her admit to not wanting sex with you? What happens after that? If you are confused about a person's intentions because they seem inconsistent or misaligned with the situation or the goals as you thought them (to be romantic partners), then instead consider the result of their actions. Consider that her goal is to not have sex with you. It's easy to complicate that by jumping to "how do I get her to want sex with me?". I think it's worth planting a flag on the first point - that the goal is not to have sex with you, and figure out what that means to you first, rather than how to change it. Why isn't SHE putting the effort into changing it? If her behavior shows an intent to avoid sex with you (and it does), then how will your plans and discussions turn out? Your last point indicates that she is already at a point where she is proposing non-sexual intimacy to pre-empt sexual intimacy. Carried farther, her logic will eventually cross to ALL intimacy so as not to "lead you on". She is also portraying you as the typical "all you ever think about is sex" role. It's an attempt to shame you out of pushing farther. It also telegraphs the way your sexuality is perceived and appreciated by her - as in "not at all". It's something to be managed. Not once, have I ever seen "the talk" result in any demonstrable change that lasts beyond two weeks. The only thing I have ever seen to move the needle once sex has gone off is a real, imminent consequence. Having an uncomfortable "talk" once in a while becomes a manageable cost that can be strung out for years and years. If you want it taken as serious as you take it, the only thing you can do is begin acting as if it is serious. It begins with the unpacking the idea that you DON'T have a romantic relationship with that woman. You have an intimate one, but not a romantic one that includes sexual expression. You've already "tried everything", so this is a good place to plant your camp. What do you DO with that? If you were living with someone with whom you don't have such a relationship, then how would you behave? Move out of the bed. It's not about "take that". It's about getting some restful sleep and helping you adjust to your reality vs the constant disappointment that is fixed to the expectation that the heavens will align and you will miss it. You don't sleep with your roommate. What is the reason you are sleeping in the same bed with her? Married? Take off the ring. See how you feel after a while. It's not about how SHE feels about it. It's how YOU feel as you aim to market correct your relationship back to its true value. Want sex? Ready for the nuclear option? With as much pain as I experienced, I think that nothing smacked the truth into our situation better than the sincere pitch to open the relationship. When meant seriously, with a date with a person imminent, it was a total game changer that cut through the "default celibacy" non-ownership of our choices more than anything else. Introducing the notion of "We don't need to choose celibacy" if we don't want sex with each other, really brings things to a head in a way that an affair doesn't until it is found out. It reveals the truth of the situation without the cluttering bullshit. She doesn't want to bang you? ok. So is it important that you don't bang anyone else, if she doesn't want you? Why is that? What's marriage bringing to the table here, as opposed to, say, amicable ex-spouses and co-parents? Finding much comfort in knowing i made the right choice to sign up and become a member of this site......!!!!!! Thanks....thanks |
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Post by itsjustus on Apr 27, 2017 12:59:58 GMT -5
After hinting, and politely asking (leading to begging) for several years, I had "The Talk" #1, starting by saying I was leaving. She had legitimate (to me at the time) reasons to also leave, and we agreed to try to salvage. Well....I'm divorced now, so it didn't quite go as hoped. So The Talk #2 was a repeat of #1, with a different ending. But I did start with the nuclear option. So like Baz and many others here have said, I got my answers. And there wasn't a damn thing I could do but change myself. Give up the expectation of sexual intimacy in a marriage like I wanted? Or leave to relieve the angst and overwhelming resentments. As for your deal, there are a lot of very good things written from others already, so I'll speak to what stood out to me. Earlier you committed to intimacy and affection without the expectation of it leading to sex. And it seems you stuck with it. But the next time you talked, she said she was afraid to be intimate, to do other things besides PIV with you, because she expected you to carry it further. So she doesn't trust you. You also you want her to finally just be honest with you, yet she seems to equivocate on this very important topic. That you're disappointed she hasn't. You're asking for a big, Big, BIG thing here doneanddone. "Honestly doneandone, I don't want to have sex with you" "sweetheart, I hate the thought of fucking you" "You turn my stomach" "I regret marrying you, I never truly loved you". . Who wants to say any of those, or any other REAL reasons to their spouse? If she were to say the bedroom curtains are too bright, thats actionable. But I bet she'd have mentioned it by now. So she isn't being open and honest with you. My point: having looked at what's needed for successful, fulfilling relationships, marriage, and love since I divorced, I found two very essential ingredients HAVE to be present. 1. Trust 2. Open and completely honest communication. After reading your updates so far, Id say you neither. IMHO, I think you have your answers. So it returns to Baz's question. What do you do now? |
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 27, 2017 13:26:47 GMT -5
After hinting, and politely asking (leading to begging) for several years, I had "The Talk" #1, starting by saying I was leaving. She had legitimate (to me at the time) reasons to also leave, and we agreed to try to salvage. Well....I'm divorced now, so it didn't quite go as hoped. So The Talk #2 was a repeat of #1, with a different ending. But I did start with the nuclear option. So like Baz and many others here have said, I got my answers. And there wasn't a damn thing I could do but change myself. Give up the expectation of sexual intimacy in a marriage like I wanted? Or leave to relieve the angst and overwhelming resentments. As for your deal, there are a lot of very good things written from others already, so I'll speak to what stood out to me. Earlier you committed to intimacy and affection without the expectation of it leading to sex. And it seems you stuck with it. But the next time you talked, she said she was afraid to be intimate, to do other things besides PIV with you, because she expected you to carry it further. So she doesn't trust you. You also you want her to finally just be honest with you, yet she seems to equivocate on this very important topic. That you're disappointed she hasn't. You're asking for a big, Big, BIG thing here doneanddone . "Honestly doneandone, I don't want to have sex with you" "sweetheart, I hate the thought of fucking you" "You turn my stomach" "I regret marrying you, I never truly loved you". . Who wants to say any of those, or any other REAL reasons to their spouse? If she were to say the bedroom curtains are too bright, thats actionable. But I bet she'd have mentioned it by now. So she isn't being open and honest with you. My point: having looked at what's needed for successful, fulfilling relationships, marriage, and love since I divorced, I found two very essential ingredients HAVE to be present. 1. Trust 2. Open and completely honest communication. After reading your updates so far, Id say you neither. IMHO, I think you have your answers. So it returns to Baz's question. What do you do now? Ok, I can see how wanting her to openly say what many are thinking are hurtful and disrespectful things would be torture on my part and torturous to me. But here is where i may not explaining it well enough. By her openly saying all those things with the words coming out of her mouth and her actually meaning them, in turn without a shadow of doubt in my warped mind and thought process, it would be at that moment that very moment she uttered the words she would see and have an atom sized glimpse of the exact same mountain sized boulder of emotional destruction she has been putting me through since our SM began well over 6 years ago. She wouldn't be able to hide behind whatever round about way of saying what she feels anymore and the self destruction of her own flaws will be in countdown mode. As of right now I don't care about the SM anymore, I'm going to have sex again in my life and it will be healthy, and with someone who loves me and respects me enough to tell me what I need to hear and what they truly feel and think. So with my wife, she needs to know and feel the pain and the embarrassment and the shame and the guilt and the everything else that she has put me through from making a married couple decision for herself without consulting with me first. She broke the ultimate marriage rule, making a life changing decision without consultation from the other half. So the happy ending to my story here would be (ha ha happy ending just saw that) she feel the same as i have for the past several years and end up with someone who does what she did to me....to her.....that's what I want next. I just have to execute it.... |
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Post by novembercomingfire on Apr 27, 2017 13:36:50 GMT -5
After hinting, and politely asking (leading to begging) for several years, I had "The Talk" #1, starting by saying I was leaving. She had legitimate (to me at the time) reasons to also leave, and we agreed to try to salvage. Well....I'm divorced now, so it didn't quite go as hoped. So The Talk #2 was a repeat of #1, with a different ending. But I did start with the nuclear option. So like Baz and many others here have said, I got my answers. And there wasn't a damn thing I could do but change myself. Give up the expectation of sexual intimacy in a marriage like I wanted? Or leave to relieve the angst and overwhelming resentments. As for your deal, there are a lot of very good things written from others already, so I'll speak to what stood out to me. Earlier you committed to intimacy and affection without the expectation of it leading to sex. And it seems you stuck with it. But the next time you talked, she said she was afraid to be intimate, to do other things besides PIV with you, because she expected you to carry it further. So she doesn't trust you. You also you want her to finally just be honest with you, yet she seems to equivocate on this very important topic. That you're disappointed she hasn't. You're asking for a big, Big, BIG thing here doneanddone . "Honestly doneandone, I don't want to have sex with you" "sweetheart, I hate the thought of fucking you" "You turn my stomach" "I regret marrying you, I never truly loved you". . Who wants to say any of those, or any other REAL reasons to their spouse? If she were to say the bedroom curtains are too bright, thats actionable. But I bet she'd have mentioned it by now. So she isn't being open and honest with you. My point: having looked at what's needed for successful, fulfilling relationships, marriage, and love since I divorced, I found two very essential ingredients HAVE to be present. 1. Trust 2. Open and completely honest communication. After reading your updates so far, Id say you neither. IMHO, I think you have your answers. So it returns to Baz's question. What do you do now? Ok, I can see how wanting her to openly say what many are thinking are hurtful and disrespectful things would be torture on my part and torturous to me. But here is where i may not explaining it well enough. By her openly saying all those things with the words coming out of her mouth and her actually meaning them, in turn without a shadow of doubt in my warped mind and thought process, it would be at that moment that very moment she uttered the words she would see and have an atom sized glimpse of the exact same mountain sized boulder of emotional destruction she has been putting me through since our SM began well over 6 years ago. She wouldn't be able to hide behind whatever round about way of saying what she feels anymore and the self destruction of her own flaws will be in countdown mode. As of right now I don't care about the SM anymore, I'm going to have sex again in my life and it will be healthy, and with someone who loves me and respects me enough to tell me what I need to hear and what they truly feel and think. So with my wife, she needs to know and feel the pain and the embarrassment and the shame and the guilt and the everything else that she has put me through from making a married couple decision for herself without consulting with me first. She broke the ultimate marriage rule, making a life changing decision without consultation from the other half. So the happy ending to my story here would be (ha ha happy ending just saw that) she feel the same as i have for the past several years and end up with someone who does what she did to me....to her.....that's what I want next. I just have to execute it.... I don't know your wife, but i don't think that the result here is what you think it will be. Like you, i am waiting for my wife to just admit that she doesn't want to have sex with me (and never did, but that is my story). I feel like this would give me some closure, notwithstanding that it isn't important like my decision to go or stay. It would be my way of healing, i guess. But i don't think for a moment that my wife is ever going to feel anything of what i feel and have felt as chronically refused - in her mind she is perfect, and she has no fault in this. She didn't want to have sex with me because in her mind i am a loser, or at least unworthy of someone so flawless like she thinks she is. Her admitting anything would only be another means of her describing my shortcomings to me. My point is that if your wife was ever going to empathize with your pain, wouldn't she have already done so? Wouldn't she have wished against all not to have put you through what she has put you through? If you need her admission that is well, but i would not expect there to be too much feeling or personal responsibility to accompany the admission. |
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 27, 2017 13:55:31 GMT -5
Ok, I can see how wanting her to openly say what many are thinking are hurtful and disrespectful things would be torture on my part and torturous to me. But here is where i may not explaining it well enough. By her openly saying all those things with the words coming out of her mouth and her actually meaning them, in turn without a shadow of doubt in my warped mind and thought process, it would be at that moment that very moment she uttered the words she would see and have an atom sized glimpse of the exact same mountain sized boulder of emotional destruction she has been putting me through since our SM began well over 6 years ago. She wouldn't be able to hide behind whatever round about way of saying what she feels anymore and the self destruction of her own flaws will be in countdown mode. As of right now I don't care about the SM anymore, I'm going to have sex again in my life and it will be healthy, and with someone who loves me and respects me enough to tell me what I need to hear and what they truly feel and think. So with my wife, she needs to know and feel the pain and the embarrassment and the shame and the guilt and the everything else that she has put me through from making a married couple decision for herself without consulting with me first. She broke the ultimate marriage rule, making a life changing decision without consultation from the other half. So the happy ending to my story here would be (ha ha happy ending just saw that) she feel the same as i have for the past several years and end up with someone who does what she did to me....to her.....that's what I want next. I just have to execute it.... I don't know your wife, but i don't think that the result here is what you think it will be. Like you, i am waiting for my wife to just admit that she doesn't want to have sex with me (and never did, but that is my story). I feel like this would give me some closure, notwithstanding that it isn't important like my decision to go or stay. It would be my way of healing, i guess. But i don't think for a moment that my wife is ever going to feel anything of what i feel and have felt as chronically refused - in her mind she is perfect, and she has no fault in this. She didn't want to have sex with me because in her mind i am a loser, or at least unworthy of someone so flawless like she thinks she is. Her admitting anything would only be another means of her describing my shortcomings to me. My point is that if your wife was ever going to empathize with your pain, wouldn't she have already done so? Wouldn't she have wished against all not to have put you through what she has put you through? If you need her admission that is well, but i would not expect there to be too much feeling or personal responsibility to accompany the admission. She wants to empathize with me but because there is nothing I have that she wants there isn't anything for her, in her mind, to empathize with. But she is a very complex and psychological person. She wants to get inside and find out 'the root' of all problems and not just 'the surface' as she like so often to say. So repetition until comprehension works well with her. She has tap danced around saying it, she has tip toed through the field of daisies swooning to the tune of it so for her to actually bring herself to say the words would break her and that is where she will begin to feel it. That's her crutch. When it is something so uncomfortable for her she won't even hint verbally discussing the words so having her say the words and have her hear her own voice say it.....call me crazy or psycho but that's the kind of wife i married.....we are just f'ed up people.... Word to the wise out there reading.....if your wife or husband is a psych major or has a psychology degree or masters in psychology or is in mental health....RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN far far away. They will mess you up for life. No matter the best of intention. They will crush you for everything you are worth. I apologize for anyone out there in that profession or college career path. I am a tainted by product of a person in a long term relationship with someone with that knowledge, education and background and it f...ing sucks a$$..... Get out now. |
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Post by baza on Apr 27, 2017 21:28:12 GMT -5
I think there's something worth pointing out about refusive spouses.
A refusive spouse doesn't care whether you understand their motivation or not.
Nor do they care whether you like the situation or not.
They don't care whether you are happy in the union or not.
And, they don't care whether you feel valued / validated within the union or not.
Their actions tell you this, as clear as clear can be (although their words may say different)
But what they are mindful of, and DO care about, is whether you'll tolerate it or not.
And your actions, in staying in the situation tell them, as clear as clear can be, that you WILL tolerate it (although your words may say different)
They really don't give a fuck about you - the person (although they may value you as financier, social accessory, parent, and other peripheral matters)
But they DO give a fuck about your tolerance levels, and will usually modify their behaviours for short periods at times by *enough* to keep you around.
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Post by lyn on Apr 27, 2017 22:26:20 GMT -5
I've tried every approach imaginable to open the lines of communication about out SM to my wife. I don't think she really cares about sex anymore to be honest. How would anyone go about starting the conversation about the SM with your spouse if it hasn't already started? So, I imagine that you and your spouse don't talk about this too after, just judging from this post. One thing I regret, in my own debacle here, is not SPELLING it out to my H right as things started going south. I did the kind letters, sexy lingerie, suggestive remarks, god, you name it, I tried it. This has been going on for 11 years. Anyone that knows me KNOWS I'm not some shrinking violet. Well, why am I in this instance? I dunno, all I can offer to you is this- SPELL IT OUT. Lay your your cards on the table. I.e., "we need to be having ENTHUSIASTIC sex at least 3x per week. If not, we're getting divorced. Please do this. Ugh I would've saved so much time ETC had I laid my own cards on the table instead of all of my "sweet" little sentiments, lovely, heartfelt letters, scented candles, whatever. A simple, "F*CK ME or WE ARE DONE" may have worked. Hindsight is 20-20. God, I hate that saying. |
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Post by GeekGoddess on Apr 28, 2017 0:27:37 GMT -5
I second both these latest additions from baza & lyn. If I had been clearer, earlier - he may have understood while he still gave 2 shits about me. By remaining unclear, which I'm no shrinking violet either so I don't know why I never had the balls needed to say it clearer earlier- but by me "trying" to be not so blunt....whatever, it just all died & there was nothing he could have tried that was not "too little too late" When I realized that "even if magic suddenly happened, I wouldn't even want him anymore" then there was no reasonable plan of action except to leave, call it quits, put a fork in it it's done. So - if your marriage is not yet that dead, then use the bluntest clearest language possible. |
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 28, 2017 8:58:32 GMT -5
I've tried every approach imaginable to open the lines of communication about out SM to my wife. I don't think she really cares about sex anymore to be honest. How would anyone go about starting the conversation about the SM with your spouse if it hasn't already started? So, I imagine that you and your spouse don't talk about this too after, just judging from this post. One thing I regret, in my own debacle here, is not SPELLING it out to my H right as things started going south. I did the kind letters, sexy lingerie, suggestive remarks, god, you name it, I tried it. This has been going on for 11 years. Anyone that knows me KNOWS I'm not some shrinking violet. Well, why am I in this instance? I dunno, all I can offer to you is this- SPELL IT OUT. Lay your your cards on the table. I.e., "we need to be having ENTHUSIASTIC sex at least 3x per week. If not, we're getting divorced. Please do this. Ugh I would've saved so much time ETC had I laid my own cards on the table instead of all of my "sweet" little sentiments, lovely, heartfelt letters, scented candles, whatever. A simple, "F*CK ME or WE ARE DONE" may have worked. Hindsight is 20-20. God, I hate that saying. I am slowly approaching that mark. The "talks" we have had, at least recently, have seen slight.....I mean slight subtle change in not really behavior but rather attitude towards what you would call ENTHUSIASTIC sex but in my case it was just simple contact, like cuddle or her laying with me on the couch. She claims she wants all that touchy feely stuff, holding hands, back rubs, foot massages.....but without all the other leading into foreplay and sex whether it's intercourse or otherwise. So she gets hesitant anytime I get close and withdrawls. But recently the conversations we've had, I do see a very subtle change in her attitude when we do lay on the couch or riding in the car and I reach my hand over and lay it on her leg, things like that. We are at a tipping point with the SM and to lay out the descriptive 3x a week deal, she would see that as an ultimatum and skip out before I even had the opportunity to make a move first. But I do appreciate the feedback and thank you for sharing. This place is a great outlet to vent and cope and share with others and I'm glad you chimed in on my thoughts. Appreciate it very much.....  |
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