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Post by merrygoround on Apr 23, 2017 6:12:52 GMT -5
Had a tough day yesterday - obviously i hate to see anybody hurt and upset but i cant take the stance that he has that it's come out of the blue.
Neither can i keep repeating myself on how many times over the years I've wanted us to attend counseling to try to fix the situation. But he only sees this instance as the one that counts.
I can't take him belittling my emotions and fears for my future, as well as making tentative plans - such as "surely a year or so more when the kids finish schooling and are out looking for work, it would make sense then. You're 44 now, i cant see it being much harder to find a job then than it is now".
Needing to vent.
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 23, 2017 6:31:50 GMT -5
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Post by dinnaken on Apr 24, 2017 2:20:16 GMT -5
Hi Merrygoround,
I agree with Greatcoastal, this is stalling tactics. I would guess that he thinks that there is still room for manoeuvre and that you could still be shepherded back into the fold - that being the marriage on his terms. For another year and then another year and then...
From what you've written, it looks to me that the debate has shifted onto his ground. He will keep it there, talking on his terms until you give up on this notion of calling it quits and go back to the status quo.
Do not stay on this ground; at the very best it will grind you down and upset you (I'm sorry, but I'd guess that, even unconsciously, that's fine with him).
Say what you want and make it plain that you mean what you say. No matter how hard or painful - say it. Do not engage with him on his terms - only yours.
Then tell him what the next step you will be taking is. One step at a time Sister Merrygoround, one foot in front of the other.
Thinking of you
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Post by baza on Apr 24, 2017 4:23:01 GMT -5
This is a rotten part of the process Sister merrygoround (not that there are too many 'nice' parts of the process !!) This part requires lazer like focus. Just about everything that comes up requires you to run the "is this going to help me get out, or is it going to hold me up ?" question past yourself. You go with the things that are going to help, and you scrub the things that are not going to help. |
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Post by merrygoround on Apr 25, 2017 0:44:20 GMT -5
Ok so an update. Two nights ago, we had a row. Of volcanic proportions. Lasted in to the early hours. I was just so angry - like explosively angry. I'm disappointed in myself for letting myself get that way, but i guess it needed to come out. And boy was he angry too. I think the house shook. He broke down in tears - something i haven't seen at all before. He said he knows now how much pain this has caused me, what it has done to me and "gets" it. He said he thinks there could be a problem with him - possibly physical, definitely some psychological blocks and wants to sort that out. He has said he wants to make an appointment with the doctor to get tested. He has asked me to go with him. I've said ok, but he needs to make that appt himself. He told me this morning that as the next couple days are tied up with other stuff, he has put a reminder on his phone to make the appt. I'm very wary, obviously and am taking more the view that he needs to do this for him.
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Post by baza on Apr 25, 2017 1:42:01 GMT -5
A couple of thoughts for you Sister merrygoroundIt hasn't been urgent enough for near on two decades for him to get off his arse and see if anything can be done. Now, it has become *urgent*. Well, sort of *urgent* - what's a couple of days between friends ? There is *other stuff* that is more urgent apparently. More urgent than his missus' unhappiness, more urgent than the shakey status of the marriage. And that, is just to get to the Doc's. Getting to the Doc's is only the potential start of a long and arduous process for him, and carries no guarantee of outcome. Given how long you have waited already for him to act, I can't see as how you "owe" him any further concessions. In any event, *you* can still be working on your exit strategy whilst he is working on his shit (if he does). You are presumably NOT in a position or mindset to be able to leave in the next few days, presumably that would be a matter of months rather than days. But for what it is worth, I think accompanying him to the appointment he may make is a good idea. Mainly for you to be able to pick up the vibe of just how seriously he is treating this. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 25, 2017 9:44:43 GMT -5
Friend I recommended for you to set a deadline (a day, no more. Hours) Now you see why.It's back to boundaries again. How many days before the appointment, (will he even consider your schedule? NO!) Then how many months before the doctor? How long before the medication is ordered? Arrives? Will he take it regularly? Return visits? Most important his behavior! How many years before he even begins to improve in the slightest? Then when he claims ,I did all I could? What then?
I can only imagine all the other devastating responsibilities, that have been your burden to carry, all in the name of "family". You haven't even mentioned money? That is normally the close second on reasons for divorce. Respect and trust, all long gone. That he doesn't see, and that he doesn't get. Why should he? You my friend gave him your respect, and your trust for to long. Fortunately the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) has lifted.
You are beginning to see right through his manipulative controlling tactics of his words and actions. You are calling him out on it. His control is crumbling and he is clinging to delaying the inevitable as long as possible.
It's like my therapists once told us,"there is not even a dying ember left".
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Post by merrygoround on Apr 25, 2017 10:40:37 GMT -5
A couple of thoughts for you Sister merrygoroundIt hasn't been urgent enough for near on two decades for him to get off his arse and see if anything can be done. Now, it has become *urgent*. Well, sort of *urgent* - what's a couple of days between friends ? There is *other stuff* that is more urgent apparently. More urgent than his missus' unhappiness, more urgent than the shakey status of the marriage. And that, is just to get to the Doc's. Getting to the Doc's is only the potential start of a long and arduous process for him, and carries no guarantee of outcome. Given how long you have waited already for him to act, I can't see as how you "owe" him any further concessions. In any event, *you* can still be working on your exit strategy whilst he is working on his shit (if he does). You are presumably NOT in a position or mindset to be able to leave in the next few days, presumably that would be a matter of months rather than days. But for what it is worth, I think accompanying him to the appointment he may make is a good idea. Mainly for you to be able to pick up the vibe of just how seriously he is treating this. Absolutely baza and this has been running through my mind constantly. It's the wording he uses talking about it that is also raising red flags for me. "What if there is a serious health issue, would you stay?" "What if it doesn't work?" "What if i do all this and the outcome isn't what you want?" "I can't guarantee it will work, what then?". Grrr just make the bloody appt first! And now "well as I've been to appts in the past with you and stuck it out, i hope you'll see it through with me". Next it was "well, if i do have a low testosterone level and i get all the meds or a little blue pill, i still can't promise you I will perform more often or try new things". And that's just the physical side - he's already admitted to psychological blocks. Just thinking about it all and the time it could take, starting over 20 years later with a man of almost 60 is making me panic. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 25, 2017 10:42:56 GMT -5
I read this today and would like to share it with you.
The book is called "A Scandalous Freedom " by Steve brown.
The Plague of Irresponsibility, in the Family pgs 124-125.
Nobody is so wise, so pure,and such an absolute authority that you can turn your life over to him or her and thus avoid any responsibility for your own decisions and actions. But people do it all the time.
I believe the bible teaches that a husband / father is to lead his family. That is not to say that the Bible instructs the husband to act as the high potentate and sovereign czar of his family.
Some teach that a husband's abuse (no matter how vicious) should be accepted, that a husband's demands (no matter how ungodly) should be met,and that a husbands command (no matter how stupid) should be obeyed. Dear friend, that isn't godliness; it's irresponsibility. God didn't create wives to be doormats for their husbands, and God didn't create husbands to be worshiped.
A well meaning christian told a friend of mine that, in order to see her husband come to Christ, she should allow him to continue his physical abuse. In fact, she should accept it without complaint or protest as a call from God. That made me so angry I could have spit. If I had not been there to tell her that nobody deserves that kind of obedience, she might be dead now. I wonder how often woman go through something similar with nobody to tell them the truth?
My friend had wrongly placed her Christian counselor on a pedestal. She had placed her husband on another pedestal. And in both cases she was irresponsible - almost terminally so.
It happens with men too. I herd one wife make the following announcement when she and her husband arrive at a party: "George didn't want to come but I told him that we were coming anyway". Then she turned to George and said, "mix George". George mixed. In fact, as he mixed, George seemed to have a good time in direct proportion to how far away he got from his wife. Even from across the room,however, she overheard him telling a joke and went out of her way to say, "George you aren't telling it right. Let me tell it" He shut up and let her tell the joke. Then as the evening progressed, she turned to George and said," George it's time to leave. Come on." George left. As they walked away from the house, I could hear her yelling at George because he had parked to far down the street.
I wanted to say, "George, don't let her do that to you. She's just as flawed as you are, and her views and desires deserve no more respect than yours". But he probably would not have listened. He had gone to far and had invested to much power in someone else. After a while it's very difficult to change. It starts as an effort to keep the peace, and it ends in irresponsible submission to a defied spouse.
We all need to make a decision about our life. Never again would I be so irresponsible as to, without thinking and without questioning, give control of my life to another human being. I would always remember that others do not deserve that kind of worship and unthinking obedience.
(Take full responsibility for yourself and keep your freedom. It's worth it.)
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Post by merrygoround on Apr 25, 2017 10:46:37 GMT -5
I read this today and would like to share it with you. The book is called "A Scandalous Freedom " by Steve brown. The Plague of Irresponsibility, in the Family pgs 124-125. Nobody is so wise, so pure,and such an absolute authority that you can turn your life over to him or her and thus avoid any responsibility for your own decisions and actions. But people do it all the time. I believe the bible teaches that a husband / father is to lead his family. That is not to say that the Bible instructs the husband to act as the high potentate and sovereign czar of his family. Some teach that a husband's abuse (no matter how vicious) should be accepted, that a husband's demands (no matter how ungodly) should be met,and that a husbands command (no matter how stupid) should be obeyed. Dear friend, that isn't godliness; it's irresponsibility. God didn't create wives to be doormats for their husbands, and God didn't create husbands to be worshiped. A well meaning christian told a friend of mine that, in order to see her husband come to Christ, she should allow him to continue his physical abuse. In fact, she should accept it without complaint or protest as a call from God. That made me so angry I could have spit. If I had not been there to tell her that nobody deserves that kind of obedience, she might be dead now. I wonder how often woman go through something similar with nobody to tell them the truth? My friend had wrongly placed her Christian counselor on a pedestal. She had placed her husband on another pedestal. And in both cases she was irresponsible - almost terminally so. It happens with men too. I herd one wife make the following announcement when she and her husband arrive at a party: "George didn't want to come but I told him that we were coming anyway". Then she turned to George and said, "mix George". George mixed. In fact, as he mixed, George seemed to have a good time in direct proportion to how far away he got from his wife. Even from across the room,however, she overheard him telling a joke and went out of her way to say, "George you aren't telling it right. Let me tell it" He shut up and let her tell the joke. Then as the evening progressed, she turned to George and said," George it's time to leave. Come on." George left. As they walked away from the house, I could hear her yelling at George because he had parked to far down the street. I wanted to say, "George, don't let her do that to you. She's just as flawed as you are, and her views and desires deserve no more respect than yours". But he probably would not have listened. He had gone to far and had invested to much power in someone else. After a while it's very difficult to change. It starts as an effort to keep the peace, and it ends in irresponsible submission to a defied spouse. We all need to make a decision about our life. Never again would I be so irresponsible as to, without thinking and without questioning, give control of my life to another human being. I would always remember that others do not deserve that kind of worship and unthinking obedience. (Take full responsibility for yourself and keep your freedom. It's worth it.) Wow greatcoastal that part at the end is spot on. I've tears in my eyes. I am already holding on to a quote you put in another thread "to thine own self be true" - holding on by my fingernails. Thank you x |
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 25, 2017 10:51:23 GMT -5
I read this today and would like to share it with you. The book is called "A Scandalous Freedom " by Steve brown. The Plague of Irresponsibility, in the Family pgs 124-125. Nobody is so wise, so pure,and such an absolute authority that you can turn your life over to him or her and thus avoid any responsibility for your own decisions and actions. But people do it all the time. I believe the bible teaches that a husband / father is to lead his family. That is not to say that the Bible instructs the husband to act as the high potentate and sovereign czar of his family. Some teach that a husband's abuse (no matter how vicious) should be accepted, that a husband's demands (no matter how ungodly) should be met,and that a husbands command (no matter how stupid) should be obeyed. Dear friend, that isn't godliness; it's irresponsibility. God didn't create wives to be doormats for their husbands, and God didn't create husbands to be worshiped. A well meaning christian told a friend of mine that, in order to see her husband come to Christ, she should allow him to continue his physical abuse. In fact, she should accept it without complaint or protest as a call from God. That made me so angry I could have spit. If I had not been there to tell her that nobody deserves that kind of obedience, she might be dead now. I wonder how often woman go through something similar with nobody to tell them the truth? My friend had wrongly placed her Christian counselor on a pedestal. She had placed her husband on another pedestal. And in both cases she was irresponsible - almost terminally so. It happens with men too. I herd one wife make the following announcement when she and her husband arrive at a party: "George didn't want to come but I told him that we were coming anyway". Then she turned to George and said, "mix George". George mixed. In fact, as he mixed, George seemed to have a good time in direct proportion to how far away he got from his wife. Even from across the room,however, she overheard him telling a joke and went out of her way to say, "George you aren't telling it right. Let me tell it" He shut up and let her tell the joke. Then as the evening progressed, she turned to George and said," George it's time to leave. Come on." George left. As they walked away from the house, I could hear her yelling at George because he had parked to far down the street. I wanted to say, "George, don't let her do that to you. She's just as flawed as you are, and her views and desires deserve no more respect than yours". But he probably would not have listened. He had gone to far and had invested to much power in someone else. After a while it's very difficult to change. It starts as an effort to keep the peace, and it ends in irresponsible submission to a defied spouse. We all need to make a decision about our life. Never again would I be so irresponsible as to, without thinking and without questioning, give control of my life to another human being. I would always remember that others do not deserve that kind of worship and unthinking obedience. (Take full responsibility for yourself and keep your freedom. It's worth it.) Wow greatcoastal that part at the end is spot on. I've tears in my eyes. I am already holding on to a quote you put in another thread "to thine own self be true" - holding on by my fingernails. Thank you x Thank you dear friend ,(choked up tears of joy right now!) When I read that this morning I knew there was a reason. I thought of you, myself, and others, as we continue to gain ground, and move forward! |
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 25, 2017 11:19:58 GMT -5
A couple of thoughts for you Sister merrygoround It hasn't been urgent enough for near on two decades for him to get off his arse and see if anything can be done. Now, it has become *urgent*. Well, sort of *urgent* - what's a couple of days between friends ? There is *other stuff* that is more urgent apparently. More urgent than his missus' unhappiness, more urgent than the shakey status of the marriage. And that, is just to get to the Doc's. Getting to the Doc's is only the potential start of a long and arduous process for him, and carries no guarantee of outcome. Given how long you have waited already for him to act, I can't see as how you "owe" him any further concessions. In any event, *you* can still be working on your exit strategy whilst he is working on his shit (if he does). You are presumably NOT in a position or mindset to be able to leave in the next few days, presumably that would be a matter of months rather than days. But for what it is worth, I think accompanying him to the appointment he may make is a good idea. Mainly for you to be able to pick up the vibe of just how seriously he is treating this. Absolutely baza and this has been running through my mind constantly. It's the wording he uses talking about it that is also raising red flags for me. "What if there is a serious health issue, would you stay?" "What if it doesn't work?" "What if i do all this and the outcome isn't what you want?" "I can't guarantee it will work, what then?". Grrr just make the bloody appt first! And now "well as I've been to appts in the past with you and stuck it out, i hope you'll see it through with me". Next it was "well, if i do have a low testosterone level and i get all the meds or a little blue pill, i still can't promise you I will perform more often or try new things". And that's just the physical side - he's already admitted to psychological blocks. Just thinking about it all and the time it could take, starting over 20 years later with a man of almost 60 is making me panic. "What if". STOP. He is "what if'ing" you into a corner again. Typical controller straight out of the DARVO play book. You have to be accountable for yourself right now. Tell him, STOP! No more "what if" I will speak to you when you are ready to listen, and when you take action. Go stay with a relative, friend, or family. Your husband is always asking the "what if's" of bad things. Does he ever ask about the "what if's " of good things that can happen? No. I am betting you do! WHAT IF, I mess up and make a wrong decision? So what? As long as you make a decision (having knowledge, experience, faith, trust) Don't be worried you (and God) hold your future. Go get to living! Sometimes I need just enough hope, just for today! When you see people that you love worry, it hurts you, (he is not showing any of that is he?) Don't worry about tomorrow, today's grace is sufficient. ( think about that as you begin your new journey) Courageous faith does the next right thing. Courageous faith is not dependent on the outcome of circumstances. Their is no substitute for being at peace with what is right. |
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Post by baza on Apr 25, 2017 19:16:30 GMT -5
I've recounted this anecdote before Sister merrygoround Backgound. It is 2005 and my ILIASM deal has taken another turn for the worse. I have been mulling over a "fresh" way of approaching the issue over several weeks, and reckon I am on a winner. I eyeball her and say - "I am well aware that you are dealing with some issues presently, and I want you to know that I support you in your efforts. However, once you have dealt with these issues we are going to have to have a real discussion about our marriage and its' future, if any. But until then, I am here for you". In my mind, the above was a compassionate, reasonable, thoughtful and honest position to take. WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What I had effectively committed to was to stay until she sorted her shit out. And so, if her agenda was for us to stay together, it was NOT in her best interests for her to sort her shit out. *If* she sorted her shit out, then in all likelyhood the marriage would then end. She didn't sort her shit out. And I was left in the unenviable position of having to try and weasel my way out of the committment to "stay until she sorted her shit out". And that took a while. Mainly due to the fact that I find it very very difficult to go back on my word. But I did it. Eventually. I replaced it with a deadline. A generous deadline. January 2010. Events overtook us. I left in October 2009. My point is this. Do NOT give an open ended ticket like "I'll stay until you sort your shit out" Run the clock on it. And make it a pretty short clock. |
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Post by unmatched on Apr 25, 2017 21:23:10 GMT -5
A couple of thoughts for you Sister merrygoround It hasn't been urgent enough for near on two decades for him to get off his arse and see if anything can be done. Now, it has become *urgent*. Well, sort of *urgent* - what's a couple of days between friends ? There is *other stuff* that is more urgent apparently. More urgent than his missus' unhappiness, more urgent than the shakey status of the marriage. And that, is just to get to the Doc's. Getting to the Doc's is only the potential start of a long and arduous process for him, and carries no guarantee of outcome. Given how long you have waited already for him to act, I can't see as how you "owe" him any further concessions. In any event, *you* can still be working on your exit strategy whilst he is working on his shit (if he does). You are presumably NOT in a position or mindset to be able to leave in the next few days, presumably that would be a matter of months rather than days. But for what it is worth, I think accompanying him to the appointment he may make is a good idea. Mainly for you to be able to pick up the vibe of just how seriously he is treating this. Absolutely baza and this has been running through my mind constantly. It's the wording he uses talking about it that is also raising red flags for me. "What if there is a serious health issue, would you stay?" "What if it doesn't work?" "What if i do all this and the outcome isn't what you want?" "I can't guarantee it will work, what then?". Grrr just make the bloody appt first! And now "well as I've been to appts in the past with you and stuck it out, i hope you'll see it through with me". Next it was "well, if i do have a low testosterone level and i get all the meds or a little blue pill, i still can't promise you I will perform more often or try new things". And that's just the physical side - he's already admitted to psychological blocks. Just thinking about it all and the time it could take, starting over 20 years later with a man of almost 60 is making me panic. It sounds like he desperately wants to save your marriage. Perhaps he loves you and desperately wants to spend the rest of his life with you. But he doesn't particularly want to have a sex life with you. The whole point of performing more often and trying new things is to be curious and experiment, to see where your limits are, to do something together which brings joy into your life. At this point can you really imagine the two of you having a healthy, unrestrained, passionate, loving, intimate, curious and open sex life? At this point it would be a fairly safe bet that the 'marriage' in his head that he is trying to save looks very different from the 'marriage' in your head that you want. |
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Post by merrygoround on Apr 25, 2017 23:21:56 GMT -5
I've recounted this anecdote before Sister merrygoround Backgound. It is 2005 and my ILIASM deal has taken another turn for the worse. I have been mulling over a "fresh" way of approaching the issue over several weeks, and reckon I am on a winner. I eyeball her and say - "I am well aware that you are dealing with some issues presently, and I want you to know that I support you in your efforts. However, once you have dealt with these issues we are going to have to have a real discussion about our marriage and its' future, if any. But until then, I am here for you". In my mind, the above was a compassionate, reasonable, thoughtful and honest position to take. WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What I had effectively committed to was to stay until she sorted her shit out. And so, if her agenda was for us to stay together, it was NOT in her best interests for her to sort her shit out. *If* she sorted her shit out, then in all likelyhood the marriage would then end. She didn't sort her shit out. And I was left in the unenviable position of having to try and weasel my way out of the committment to "stay until she sorted her shit out". And that took a while. Mainly due to the fact that I find it very very difficult to go back on my word. But I did it. Eventually. I replaced it with a deadline. A generous deadline. January 2010. Events overtook us. I left in October 2009. My point is this. Do NOT give an open ended ticket like "I'll stay until you sort your shit out" Run the clock on it. And make it a pretty short clock. What you said about being supportive and compassionate whilst dealing with yourself being completely broken down is absolutely right in my case. And thank you for your back story. Another arduous discussion yesterday which came about from something i discussed with my mum a few days ago. She suggested we went away for a night or two just to take a break from everything to see if it helped. I mentioned this to him as a nice for the future possibility as we hadn't done that. Yesterday he's looking online at places to go and shows me somewhere. My reaction was "well yes, that looks nice but baby steps. We have a few things to investigate first - like the appointment". I thought that was quite reasonable (in my mind) - but no, all hell broke loose. Basically if I'm putting across my point of view, putting things in a way which dont correlate to his way of thinking, not being "nice" in his view an he immediately goes on the offensive. I'm accused of "attacking". No, i see a problem and now after all this time i want to attack the problem!! Hours later he apologized. The reminder is on his phone to make the appointment today. |
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