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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 22, 2017 19:25:53 GMT -5
Their is more to it than just lack of desire for sex and intimacy. You can confirm this by setting boundaries. Start by letting him know that your need for intimacy, and sex is not being met by him. You desire him, and he needs to show, and have desire for you, or your marriage will crumble. Set this boundary, counseling and doctor testing. Set deadlines and insist that you go with him. Pick a counselour, make an apointment, go without him if he backs out. Give him zero wiggle room. (none of this is easy, by the way) You are doing it in the name of love for him and your marriage.
If ,he objects, and tries to control the situation, he has just made your honest, vulnerable, trust that you lovingly offered him worthless. You now would have every right to question trusting him in many other aspects of your marriage. These are the things in a SM that makes it a shithole.
Lastly, all these wonderful acts of service that he does sounds very much like the 19 yrs of child raising between me and my STBX. All the "time spent together" revolved around family, putting the "married couple on the back burner off a broken stove". I'll do all these things for you, just don't get to close. That means having to submit, be open with feelings and emotion, TRUST his vulnerability to you. Sex and intimacy levels the playing field. There's a lot of give and take involved. That knocks him off his pedestal of "look at all that I do for you". When it comes to trusting him for intimacy and sex, he's not doing a whole lot.
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Post by Venus Erotes on Apr 22, 2017 21:22:27 GMT -5
The evaluation concerning whether your deal is "an ILIASM shithole" or is a case of "everything being great bar the sex" is yours to make. And, if your full and frank inventory of your marriage puts you in the "everything is great bar the sex" pool, then you have another assessment to make. That being whether the lack of sex is a dealbreaker for you. It is entirely your call. You stay, you cheat, or you leave. Same options as if your deal was an ILIASM shithole. If you are going to stay, it then is incumbent upon you to accept the situation without resentment. There is no point in continuing to take your spouses inventory, no point in trying to change them, no point in "why" chasing. The problem is external to you, it is not a problem that you can fix. It is what it is. But, that initial frank and full inventory concerning the reality of your deal is critical. Many stories in here start off with the member saying "everything is great bar the sex". Very few stories end with the member still taking that position. you are a rock star in this community and your unending desire to share with others I find enviable. Thank you for the wisdom you continue to share with all of us. appleaday - I believe it was baza who first created the "SM shithole" we so lovingly continue to use, but I could be wrong  |
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appleaday
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Age Range: 36-40
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Post by appleaday on Apr 22, 2017 21:53:06 GMT -5
Their is more to it than just lack of desire for sex and intimacy. You can confirm this by setting boundaries. Start by letting him know that your need for intimacy, and sex is not being met by him. You desire him, and he needs to show, and have desire for you, or your marriage will crumble. Set this boundary, counseling and doctor testing. Set deadlines and insist that you go with him. Pick a counselour, make an apointment, go without him if he backs out. Give him zero wiggle room. (none of this is easy, by the way) You are doing it in the name of love for him and your marriage. If ,he objects, and tries to control the situation, he has just made your honest, vulnerable, trust that you lovingly offered him worthless. You now would have every right to question trusting him in many other aspects of your marriage. These are the things in a SM that makes it a shithole. Lastly, all these wonderful acts of service that he does sounds very much like the 19 yrs of child raising between me and my STBX. All the "time spent together" revolved around family, putting the "married couple on the back burner off a broken stove". I'll do all these things for you, just don't get to close. That means having to submit, be open with feelings and emotion, TRUST his vulnerability to you. Sex and intimacy levels the playing field. There's a lot of give and take involved. That knocks him off his pedestal of "look at all that I do for you". When it comes to trusting him for intimacy and sex, he's not doing a whole lot. You're right of course. I did tell him that if was a. Oh problem in our marriage and he admitted he knew that but just tried to convince himself everything was fine because I stopped asking for improvement. It just hurt so much that he was willing to let it fall to the wayside without a fight and I was able to carry on an intimate relationship without him meeting me halfway. When you talked about vulnerability and trust that really struck a chord with me. There have been several times I have broken down since my aisters death and reached out to him. Each time I dealt that by sharing how I felt I only made him uncomfortable. I told him I was struggling with depression after her death and that many days it was a struggle to get out of bed and go to work. That I cried in my car most days as I drive home because it was all overwhelming. I wanted him to tell me it would be ok and hold me. He told me I didn't have to hide my feelings but then walked away. And from then on it was like I never spoke. So I continued to cry in my car and fix my makeup before going in the house so he wouldn't see my pain. Because it felt like he rejected it. And that's where it remains today. I am much better now, btw, I don't believe I am depressed anymore. It was a stage of my grief. But yeah, i no longer trust him enough to be that vulnerable. It was hard for me to share my grief I. The first place because I. My family we don't discuss things like that. Not without jokes at least. |
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Post by Dan on Apr 22, 2017 22:01:40 GMT -5
Maybe this is a weird question, i don't know. But I have been on here reading and following posts for 2-3 weeks now and I see the phrase SM shithole thrown around a lot. Many of the stories I have read on here show that many marriages are plagued with issues outside of lack of intimacy, such as a controlling or abusive spouse. The term has always grated on me. It seems to me that its common usage is simply as a synonym: "sexless marriage" = "SM shithole". (Before this thread I've NEVER heard anyone try to distinguish "some SMs are shitholes, others might be OK".) It seems to me often wielded as tough-love sort of verbiage, to startle someone into realizing how bad their SM is. It seems to me it is used as a prod to snap out of the view "everything is great except the sex". While perhaps a noble goal -- to nudge someone along in the progress to moving on from their SM (and ostensibly toward happiness), it still comes across -- to me -- as a bit judgy. To me it seems to have the ring of a scold or even a taunt: "too weak to leave your SM? Enjoy sitting in your shithole, then." Anyway, I don't use it. |
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Post by baza on Apr 22, 2017 22:06:45 GMT -5
Sister appleaday , would it be fair to say that - apart from his unwillingness to engage you sexually - that there is also a bit of a chasm in his ability to relate to you intimately, a bit of a shortfall in his ability to support you emotionally, and a bit lacking in the empathy department ? In short, on what you have thus far divulged, is there any doubt forming in your mind that "everything is great bar the sex" ? |
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Post by wewbwb on Apr 22, 2017 22:35:08 GMT -5
Their is more to it than just lack of desire for sex and intimacy. You can confirm this by setting boundaries. Start by letting him know that your need for intimacy, and sex is not being met by him. You desire him, and he needs to show, and have desire for you, or your marriage will crumble. Set this boundary, counseling and doctor testing. Set deadlines and insist that you go with him. Pick a counselour, make an apointment, go without him if he backs out. Give him zero wiggle room. (none of this is easy, by the way) You are doing it in the name of love for him and your marriage. If ,he objects, and tries to control the situation, he has just made your honest, vulnerable, trust that you lovingly offered him worthless. You now would have every right to question trusting him in many other aspects of your marriage. These are the things in a SM that makes it a shithole. Lastly, all these wonderful acts of service that he does sounds very much like the 19 yrs of child raising between me and my STBX. All the "time spent together" revolved around family, putting the "married couple on the back burner off a broken stove". I'll do all these things for you, just don't get to close. That means having to submit, be open with feelings and emotion, TRUST his vulnerability to you. Sex and intimacy levels the playing field. There's a lot of give and take involved. That knocks him off his pedestal of "look at all that I do for you". When it comes to trusting him for intimacy and sex, he's not doing a whole lot. *There *Counselor *appointment |
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 23, 2017 5:44:24 GMT -5
Maybe this is a weird question, i don't know. But I have been on here reading and following posts for 2-3 weeks now and I see the phrase SM shithole thrown around a lot. Many of the stories I have read on here show that many marriages are plagued with issues outside of lack of intimacy, such as a controlling or abusive spouse. The term has always grated on me. It seems to me that its common usage is simply as a synonym: "sexless marriage" = "SM shithole". (Before this thread I've NEVER heard anyone try to distinguish "some SMs are shitholes, others might be OK".) It seems to me often wielded as tough-love sort of verbiage, to startle someone into realizing how bad their SM is. It seems to me it is used as a prod to snap out of the view "everything is great except the sex". While perhaps a noble goal -- to nudge someone along in the progress to moving on from their SM (and ostensibly toward happiness), it still comes across -- to me -- as a bit judgy. To me it seems to have the ring of a scold or even a taunt: "too weak to leave your SM? Enjoy sitting in your shithole, then." Anyway, I don't use it. I agree with you dan. It comes close to being a verbal attack, unless you know the content of the rest of the paragraph and how it's used. When I read shrink4men they use illustrations of a persons arm and hand reaching up from a drain. It looks like someone has fallen into a trap. Then there are illustrations of people caught in storms, or whirlwinds, as they get bullied, bombarded and attacked by the same person. I was reading the end of the book "Boundaries in Marriage" the other day when the author used the word "Him" about three times which implied that it only meant for men, as being to passive and wimpy.There are many other articles that contradict such thoughts by pointing out how men are trained, and raised in society, to obey the "happy wife, happy life" attitude. |
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Post by lyn on Apr 23, 2017 12:05:52 GMT -5
When does a sm become a sh*thole? When one realizes everything ISN'T great bar the sex. That's when.
Kind of, for me anyway, when you realize that you're not living authentically. If one is repressing their sexuality for years on end, youre NOT really being your authentic self. It's an impossibility.
For many years I've dealt with the sm because my husband is "such a nice guy - we're great friends - supportive - all around good guy".....
Sexual abandonment is a choice. Intimacy avoidance is a choice. Unfortunately, when one spouse determines that sex and intimacy are not important, a unilateral decision is made - coupled with the lifestyle that is typically not sustainable for the spouse forced into celibacy. Really unhealthy power dynamic in the relationship.
I'm wading through a similar scenario - however - finally nearing the end of the "sexless - sentence" enforced upon me. My husband is fun - nice - happy-go-lucky, all of these things, but, also a master at the subtle manipulation involved in a one-sided, intimacy free - forced celibacy that is only welcomed by one party in our marriage.
Life is short - grab it - and live it.
I hope reading everyone's stories provides some comfort to you at the least. It can be overwhelming - especially all of the similarities.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Apr 23, 2017 15:14:42 GMT -5
I'm with lyn. My SM wasn't a shithole until I could not tolerate it. At that point, I found EP by searching for how to fix a sexless marriage and arrived chanting "everything is great bar the sex and that's not his fault" (my Ex was medical reason - diagnosis of prostate cancer, removal of entire gland and the nerve bundle that creates an erection) Many lessons later - baza using the phrase unilateral decision (or unilaterally enforced celibacy)...something like that Mettamomma with her "if you have to coerce, convince or cajole" your partner into sex, it will never be the kind you are trying to get MUCH observation of my partner in other arenas - places in our lives (like bills, vacations, what to eat for dinner) where I used to not have a preference - I started stating preferences instead of always deferring to him - and I watched those reactions (and they were not flattering to him) I realized I had been in a shithole all along without the distance/perspective to see it. I ended up leaving. I do not find SM shithole as judgey. That's just me. I was the one who made the determination. No one coerced me into believing that my relationship was in the bottom of the outhouse. They lent me a telescope so I could see out, but I made the declaration "yes, it is a shithole" myself. |
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Post by unmatched on Apr 23, 2017 18:54:50 GMT -5
I am with lyn and GeekGoddess. I think so often we are terrified of feeling anything too deep or uncomfortable and terrified of connection, so we replace it with this kind of half-life where we do all the right things and say all the right things and try to live in some kind of rose-tinted, hazy love garden. But that kind of love in the end just stifles you - it leaves you disconnected, miserable and depressed and half the time you don't even know why. You look back on your life and you think you did everything right but you don't feel like you actually lived it. As lyn said if you are repressing your sexuality (or any other emotion) for years on end, then you are not being your authentic self and over time that really fucks with your head. And Mettamomma might have been like a broken record sometimes but you have to admit she was right. If you have to coerce, convince or cajole your partner into having sex with you, you will never have the kind of sex life you want. So is your relationship all great bar the sex or is it a shithole? I suspect if you start pushing the boundaries a little and finding some personal growth, it will challenge that cosy, comfortable world that marriages tend to become if we let them. And at that point you will find out pretty quickly what you have got. |
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appleaday
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Age Range: 36-40
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Post by appleaday on Apr 23, 2017 19:48:36 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for all of your amazing advice and insights. This community is very helpful to me. On the flip side it makes me uncomfortable because I have tried not to think to deeply about how I feel or what I want because I don't want to rock the boat. It's easier in a way to just let things flow as they have been. Of course. Bottling my emotions has gotten me knowhere but cranky with random outbursts followed by guilt. Since we spoke about this issue a couple of weeks ago there has been a lot of tension. Everything is going on the same but my husband has been sighing a lot while doing chores, and we have actually raised our voices over silly things.
Again, thank you all.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2017 10:35:51 GMT -5
Maybe this is a weird question, i don't know. But I have been on here reading and following posts for 2-3 weeks now and I see the phrase SM shithole thrown around a lot. Many of the stories I have read on here show that many marriages are plagued with issues outside of lack of intimacy, such as a controlling or abusive spouse. But what if that isn't the case? What if your spouse is loving and giving but unable (or unwilling) to be intimate? My husband is wonderful in so many ways and I feel guilty being in here, but truth be told there is just something missing. He is supportive of my hobbies and endeavors, we enjoy spending time together (most of the time lol), and he is a wonderful dad. He cooks, he cleans, he fixes things, and he puts up with my crazy family. I recently lost my sister and I spend a lot of time and money now helping to raise and look after her kids. He never complains and is even close with my nephew. Teaches him how to use tools, talks to him about issues at school or with his dad. I think it's amazing. And he takes good care of me when I am sick, all without complaint. The problem is he doesn't want to, or can't, be intimate with me, and I don't know which or why. Whenever we tried in the past he could not get "excited" and he isn't into learning how to please me in other ways. I tried so many things and even toys. He tried but I could tell it wasn't the least bit interesting to him. Again, he is so wonderful otherwise that I just feel guilty for wanting more. And now I am finding it hard to be sexually attracted to him. Even kissing feels weird and turns me off. What a mess! Thanks for reading if you made it this far lol. Appleaday, I read this so much and it makes me so sad every time. Here is my opinion... If he person to whom you are legally married is not providing you with sexual satisfaction and refuses to actively seek treatment for his/her issue, that person is NOT a good spouse. That person may be a good roommate, a good co-parent, a good business partner, a good comfort provider, or a multitude of other things, but that person cannot be a good spouse. A good spouse would never put you in a situation where an essential part of your being is unsatisifed. If either spouse is sexually dissatisfied, and the other one refuses to do something about it, the refuser is NOT a good spouse. I have heard excuses ad nauseum from refusers about how sex should not matter that much. However, that does not change the fact that it IS important. I hope he eventually wakes up and is grateful for what he has. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 24, 2017 13:14:30 GMT -5
Maybe reframe the questions away from whether or not someone is a good person or a bad person, or whether the marriage is a shithole or not. Roll it back to basics.
What is a marriage? If your present commitment to celibacy (not monogamy) was part of your vow, would either of you have said yes?
What does it mean to YOU that he doesn't want to have sex with you? Obviously, he's overriding whatever libido he has to ensure that he avoids it with you.
If you were not a part of each other's lives, do you think that you would have sex again (with other people)?
Do you have a sexual relationship with that person? If not, are you living as a married couple?
If you just met this person, and you
didn't want to have sex with him - and, say that you felt similarly to now in that you don't want sex with him, would you go on any more than a 3rd date?
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Post by doneanddone on Apr 24, 2017 13:58:41 GMT -5
Maybe this is a weird question, i don't know. But I have been on here reading and following posts for 2-3 weeks now and I see the phrase SM shithole thrown around a lot. Many of the stories I have read on here show that many marriages are plagued with issues outside of lack of intimacy, such as a controlling or abusive spouse. But what if that isn't the case? What if your spouse is loving and giving but unable (or unwilling) to be intimate? My husband is wonderful in so many ways and I feel guilty being in here, but truth be told there is just something missing. He is supportive of my hobbies and endeavors, we enjoy spending time together (most of the time lol), and he is a wonderful dad. He cooks, he cleans, he fixes things, and he puts up with my crazy family. I recently lost my sister and I spend a lot of time and money now helping to raise and look after her kids. He never complains and is even close with my nephew. Teaches him how to use tools, talks to him about issues at school or with his dad. I think it's amazing. And he takes good care of me when I am sick, all without complaint. The problem is he doesn't want to, or can't, be intimate with me, and I don't know which or why. Whenever we tried in the past he could not get "excited" and he isn't into learning how to please me in other ways. I tried so many things and even toys. He tried but I could tell it wasn't the least bit interesting to him. Again, he is so wonderful otherwise that I just feel guilty for wanting more. And now I am finding it hard to be sexually attracted to him. Even kissing feels weird and turns me off. What a mess! Thanks for reading if you made it this far lol. Often more than not, this is the case when the one who is doing the denying is a wonderful, supportive, generous, loving spouse that just has an issue with sex. And to say it's mental is a cop out. Everyone in this world has that one thing they are so bull headed about that it didn't matter the circumstances or scenario's they would not budge from their position to save their own life. Sex is that one thing our spouses are bull headed about and it is a form of abuse. The human body can survive a long health uneventful life without sex, that's not the point. The point is in the beginning for at least 99.9% of us here at one point in time were satisfied with our sex lives. Something has changed that and we, the 99.9%, feel that it was not us that changed but our partners, wives, or husbands. Would i have married my wife knowing that i would be in this state of mental and physical torture? Honestly, no, no i would not have. But I love her. And this is the one area of our lives that has come to crush me. I am more successful at work because i poor all my effort and time into it now as a distraction from my home life without sex. Just imagine how successful i would be if i were to be having sex.....OMG confidence level through the roof. She doesn't see that because i am numb from it all. I had a friend one time who told me about the exact same experience you are going through. It's not funny but he told me that when he would initiate intimacy with his wife and she would come up with any excuse or roll over and fall asleep he would whip it out and tug away letting her know exactly what she was missing until he was all over her and the bed sheets. He said she would get really pissed and yell and scream at him for doing it but he laughed it off and said would tell her "Well at least I made my point" |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2017 14:04:21 GMT -5
If you want my opinion, reread GeekGoddess and unmatched's posts. My refuser had medical issues. And maybe I didn't handle it well. Maybe I was selfish and thought only of my own needs. Maybe I expected too much, too fast. BUT - quite apart from the problems with me - he wasn't having a real good time in any other areas of his life, either. Maybe he failed to follow through on the health stuff as a way to punish me for wanting him to do that. But he was also punishing himself. If he did the things he needs to do, he could have a better life - with or without me. Also - suppose I stayed in that relationship (for whatever reason.) If I had stayed under his terms, that would mean the end of MY sex life, forever. To me, that would be a major loss, on a par with becoming too old to do a favorite sport. But he couldn't see that it was a major loss for me. So I was supposed to be OK with lifelong celibacy. I wasn't supposed to mind. I just couldn't handle that. If you're going to take away the best part of life, then you can't expect me to act happy. When I'm depressed or grieving a loss, being expected to pretend everything is just fine is the worst thing about it. |
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