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Post by Dan on Apr 4, 2017 8:49:20 GMT -5
On the mind of many folks in an SM is "when is it time to admit it's over?"... throw in the towel, admit the marriage is toast, decide to steel your resolve to move on.
Or -- asked another way -- "how will I know?"
I'm going to suggest one answer. I'm interested in your comments on it, and for you to share your proposed answer to the question. (State if you are divorced, divorcing, or still in SM-limbo...)
My answer is adapting an answer to a different question. If someone asks "am I gay?", a psychologist friend of mine explained it this way: "Sure, everyone can consciously THINK of seeing another person of the same sex naked, and can imagine participating in a sex act with them. But the question is where do your thoughts go when you are NOT trying to think of that? Do your unforced thoughts -- your fantasies, if you will -- naturally include sexual interaction with the same sex? If not, you're probably not homosexual; if so, you probably are."
So THAT is my answer for "how do I know if I really want a divorce?": If your unforced thoughts tend to thinking of a life on your own or a future relationship NOT with your spouse... that is a pretty good indication that you may already be "out the door", at least emotionally/mentally.
I'm not yet "divorcing" (started any legal proceedings), but because I clearly have NO intention of future plans with my wife beyond getting the children launched, I apparently -- by my own test -- have admitted to myself that a divorce is in my future. (This was a big, hard-won step... and would not have been possible without this forum and its predecessor on EP.)
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Post by bballgirl on Apr 4, 2017 9:11:36 GMT -5
I'm divorced now for over a year. Every once in awhile I question if I made the right choice to divorce instead of stay and cheat OR try for an open marriage.
I always after logically thinking about it come back to the same answer. Yes I made the right decision for me in my best interests to divorce. My ex was jealous over men that I had no sexual contact with so he would have never agreed to an open marriage. I did not like sneaking around either.
I got to a point I no longer desired to kiss him or even eat at the same table with him. I was so resentful and disgusted by the neglect I had to divorce.
Our relationship is healthier now. We are friends and co parents. Things are better.
Divorce is not the end of the world. For some it can be the beginning of a new and better life.
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Post by worksforme2 on Apr 4, 2017 9:29:33 GMT -5
I'm divorced and I consider myself fortunate that my S/M was of relatively short duration compared to others here. And before I forget , I think your psychologist friend is full of crap. Politically correct crap, but crap non the less. I spent yrs. chasing the why and trying to fix it. After 3 restarts I approached my now X with a proposition for me to have a FWB. We talked about it on 3 occasions, before she got it that I wasn't going to stay with the status quo. She returned to our bed and we were active for about 3 months and then she reverted to her old habits. No hugs, no kisses, no sex. That was it for me. I was done. Whether it's a major or dramatic event or the accumulation of hurts and disappointments over time when it hits "deal breaker status" you will know it.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Apr 4, 2017 9:48:14 GMT -5
I totally agree with the psychologist friend. Imagining a situation because someone asks you to picture it vs. naturally, unprovoked daydreams about a future (for me, alone was a vast improvement fantasy and with someone who wanted to have sex with me was actually beyond my wildest hopes at many times). I liked the Elephant Journal article on another thread that walked you through imagining if you won a lottery and could do anything with anyone, who in your current life would you retain/keep in your "dream life" you are picturing? Their point was that if we are hanging out with toxic people, those who drain or don't support us - those we kind of dislike so much that if we didn't NEED something from them, then we wouldn't keep them in our life - then they are probably not that healthy for us to be hanging out with NOW either. But as applies to my SM - when I tried to picture "if he could magically start wanting sex with me again, would it be enough" === the answer was NO. Even if he were able to attend therapy (he wouldn't have agreed to it), or willingly participated if he got there (instead of trying to show he was smarter than a licensed therapist), even if some fairy godmother waved her magical wand to rejuvenate and restore his manly wand - - I wouldn't WANT him anymore. Then - I knew. I was lucky enough to not have minors (our grown children were all "his" before they were "ours") and so I didn't have to delay a timetable beyond apartment availability arrangements. Limbo period was still a weird & precarious balancing act and mine was very short. I have thoughts once in a while about "what if" but then I remember how much deliberation I DID perform. I did not jump into my decision on a whim. The divorce was not a result of poor impulse control. It was in fact, maybe the most well-thought-out plan I've ever executed. And it has worked wonders in my joie de vivre levels.
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Post by Dan on Apr 4, 2017 10:11:26 GMT -5
I liked the Elephant Journal article on another thread that walked you through imagining if you won a lottery and could do anything with anyone, who in your current life would you retain/keep in your "dream life" you are picturing? I like this "test". Here's how my "sudden lottery win" fantasy goes: I collect my winnings; I pay off every debt we have (house, cars, school loans), put away enough for college costs not-yet-incurred (my younger kids), then give her 50% of what is left, pack up, and go. My parting words are something to the effect of: "send me 50% of the value of the house once you sell it." So... that is pretty telling, no?
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Post by cagedtiger on Apr 4, 2017 10:16:02 GMT -5
I'm with @geekgoddess here. I'm not divorced yet (it'll take a year in our wonderful state), but we've been separated since January, and I'll be telling her in our next couples session that I'm done.
I realized a while back that when I thought about the future, I didn't see my wife in it in any way, and the plans and goals that are important to me for pursuing my dreams don't align with what she wants out of her life. It's told me everything I need to know about what path my future lays along.
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Post by shamwow on Apr 4, 2017 11:51:22 GMT -5
I think that it is either when you find yourself always daydreaming about what life would be like without your spouse (positive).
OR
You realize you just can't live the way you have been living any longer (negative).
Both are powerful motivators.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Apr 4, 2017 13:54:48 GMT -5
VERY telling, @dan! So rather than thinking of this as actual limbo, it's really just Step One or Part A to executing what you envision.
I had already started clearing out files and compressing my belongings (donating lots to Salvation Army) - this "habit" began a few years before I found EP, actually, but later I realized how grateful I was that this became my pattern. And - when I moved with such ease (moving most belongings in my Prius) - I wondered if I had subconsciously been "down-sizing" so much because I was trying all along to make it easy to run away! Because, honest, the Ex was VERY surprised how few times I asked if he could help me with the truck (dining room table, treadmill, the guest room mattress, my desk). Almost everything else in my apartment was moved in a hatchback. I was like Jack Kerouac or something, I was THAT ready to hit the road when the time came.
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 4, 2017 14:39:19 GMT -5
A big "light bulb " moment for me was a year and a half ago when I come on EP. I posted my story about our re-set weekend weekend which lasted less than a day. People on EP saw right through it and bluntly,(thankfully) warned me, "she has a college plan in mind, she is setting you up ,using you, until the last one turns 18. This way she doesn't pay any child support, and has her nice stash of money hidden away, then she will dump you. You are no longer needed". She's playing you.
So there's one way how, and when "I knew". It's like not seeing the forest for the trees. While others can clearly read the writing on the wall from a distance.
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Post by misssunnybunny on Apr 4, 2017 15:48:47 GMT -5
Deep down, I knew my marriage was over for a while, I just wasn't quite willing to admit it. The moment I realized it was during a homework exercise from our first couple's counselor. Doing my part of the assignment, to arrange a date for us, and he basically shit all over it and talked down to me about not being able to remind me to do my homework (we were allowed to make it a surprise date, which is what I did). In that very brief encounter, I saw that that was how he had been treating me for years, and he would never change. It has taken me a long time to not cry when I recount that entire story. I had planned something I knew he would like and enjoy, and to have him react that way was so awful for me. It was right then that I knew I was done, I couldn't live like that anymore and I geared my efforts to researching divorce, and planning my life without him.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Apr 4, 2017 16:19:38 GMT -5
Deep down, I knew my marriage was over for a while, I just wasn't quite willing to admit it. The moment I realized it was during a homework exercise from our first couple's counselor. Doing my part of the assignment, to arrange a date for us, and he basically shit all over it and talked down to me about not being able to remind me to do my homework (we were allowed to make it a surprise date, which is what I did). In that very brief encounter, I saw that that was how he had been treating me for years, and he would never change. It has taken me a long time to not cry when I recount that entire story. I had planned something I knew he would like and enjoy, and to have him react that way was so awful for me. It was right then that I knew I was done, I couldn't live like that anymore and I geared my efforts to researching divorce, and planning my life without him. Damn. It's amazing to me what we can be in denial about. This triggers the honeymoon story for me. Like a modern blended-family couple - we went to Justice of the Peace. We took 3 days off work. I was "in charge" of the honeymoon arrangements. He would do the driving. I picked 3 B&Bs in 3 small towns (on or around the Missouri River). The first one (wedding night) was too gushy romantic (roses & lace & crap - I didn't prefer the decorating either, but my sheer babydoll negligee got no comments). The second one was in wine country (well, MO's equivalent) & the owner wanted to regale us with ghost stories about the old house. She was charming & we ate out of course - and that night he was concerned over the thinness of the walls (so, keep it down, don't be so loud). The next stay combined a trail ride on bicycles with staying at a small place (we were the only guests - no excuses!) but he complained about the bikes & the short ride hurt his butt. Omg - the last one was the honeymoon suite at a home originally built by a riverboat captain (so mid/late 1800's or so). Redone, it had a heart shaped deep tub in our suite. Again - I made too much noise. We had already been together for 8 years before that honeymoon. We stayed married 17 more. It didn't occur to me until 2015 that bitching about honeymoon sex was decidedly NOT normal behavior. Once the veil lifted, I could see so many red flags in the past that I had just continually painted green.
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 4, 2017 16:59:39 GMT -5
This reminds me of our post about "tipping points", all good discussions.
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Post by baza on Apr 4, 2017 19:24:44 GMT -5
*Admitting* you are in an ILIASM shithole is one thing. It is an important realisation too, but that doesn't mean - necessarily - that you are then going to do anything about your realisation.
There are plenty of examples in the group where the member admits that theirs is an ILIASM shithole, but they choose to stay (and that is a perfectly legitimate position to take)
I think that the *admitting* thing is *relatively* easy, compared to owning ones choice to stay (or go, or cheat). And it is "taking ownership" of one's choice that uniformly seems to be the pivotal stage of the whole process... whether that is staying / cheating / divorcing. I can't recall a single instance of a member in here changing their situation without taking ownership of their current situation. That would apply to Brother heraclitus (who is staying) as an example. That would apply to Brother greatcoastal (who is leaving)
There does not appear to be any way around / over / under this "owning your choice" part of the deal. If you cannot "own" your choice, then you cannot bring the situation to resolution.
*Admitting* is an important part of the deal, but just by itself it ain't the answer.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 5, 2017 8:25:21 GMT -5
For me, three things aligned toward making the decision:
1) Understanding that I no longer had a sexual relationship with my wife and that she no longer desired one with me. She might have desired to desire one with me, but that is not the same. Maybe add to this, awareness of the limits of my tolerance in a mere dating relationship with someone new. I think most people enlist in this board under the assumption that they are plummeting toward the earth on a bunjee cord, expecting somehow to land back on the bridge from which they fell if they just do X,Y,Z. When I decided to change the nature of my expectations of marriage (even its definition), and later on, to leave totally - I realized I was merely standing on the ground looking up at a bridge, same as everyone else. There was no tether that would snap me back toward a natural state of intimacy, as I'd assumed previously. It was a profound shift in thinking.
2) Understanding the resources, tools and aid that I had tried and exhausted to either change or endure the situation. The most important resource was my spouse's own enthusiasm for enlisting in a process to change. I realized that I had gone farther than I imagined I ever would in accommodating her stated needs to create the conditions for attraction to occur, and that with each goalpost met and knocked out of the park - they shifted farther, demanding more, rather than less.
3) Understanding the trajectory over a larger span of time. Which way was it pointed under the best of conditions (directed therapy, giving her what she said she needed, and "save the marriage" vacation), with lots of help and measures of assistance, and which way was it pointed under normal circumstances? Also, how would I compare against someone new, coming in cold?
Of those three, trajectory was the most important to me, or at least the final one that slotted into place. It was a matter of hours upon realizing that all three were aligned to pulling the plug. Maybe minutes.
Prior to that, years.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2017 9:40:27 GMT -5
I think that it is either when you find yourself always daydreaming about what life would be like without your spouse (positive). OR You realize you just can't live the way you have been living any longer (negative). Both are powerful motivators. For me, it was the second - the thought of spending the rest of my life in a relationship with Mr. Kat (after he changed) made me feel despair. This has been an extremely painful process for me. I still love him, and I'm beginning to think maybe I always will. But I'm enough of a realist to see that he either can't, or won't, go back to being his normal, healthy self. Or if he does, it will happen at about the speed of continental drift. (Patience is a virtue, but not one of mine.) Either with him or without him, I was going to be badly hurt and have a broken heart. At least this way, I live in a town I like better, where I can find better jobs.
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