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Post by Dan on Apr 28, 2016 8:13:56 GMT -5
(Sorry this is so long... but I really need to spill.)
Ugh. My wife wants to be happier by working less hard (changing jobs) to spend more time with the kids and to work on her marriage. (She has to work occasional weekends; and she has a VERY busy -- even exhausting -- summer. She wants to ditch both.)
But the jobs at the same salary will almost certainly have the same level of stress that she has now... and she just can't see it. So she will go through a huge amount of "thrashing" for no gain, plus lose ground on her modest retirement benefit. Not to mention a disruption or even loss of her medical insurance.
The jobs that give her more time will be much less salary... and that will make the day-to-day house finances tougher (adding stress) and makes a hard problem (paying for college for my two teens) even harder.
Plus -- when she took 7 months off last year as a family medical leave (I have an adult son who borders on "not socially functioning" due to bipolar) -- I don't recall that she used the time to take on rejuvenating hobbies, or that she did anything to fix the marriage/make her husband happier.
She tried to have the "I think I want to take a less stressful job" discussion AGAIN with me this morning. (This is a recurring conversation for the past five months.) My line has always been: "please find a job with similar salary BEFORE you quit this one." I have been very frank about the negative impact to our finances, and have repeatedly pointed out our impending financial doom. Oops, I mean: impending college expenses.
For having not much more to add than I've already said a dozen times and therefore really not saying much, she got very mad at me. Even accused me of "not knowing how to have a conversation". (Anyone here think I need work on that?)
One of the very thin threads holding me to the marriage and the household is that it will be harder on ME financially if I ask for a separation and move out. In round numbers, I figure it will cost me $20k/year to maintain a separate household. And I'd rather keep that in my pocket now, and keep the money for college.
But if she announces a sudden job change and substantial reduction of salary, forget it. If the family is going to lose $20k a year by her taking an job that gives her more free time (with no reason to think it will help my marriage), then, shoot, I'd rather spend that on a place of my own, and force her hand to keep her "stressful" job (and insurance) AND deal with the loss of her marriage. I'd rather announce my desire to separate, forcing her hand to keep her current salary and benefits. (The first for our mutual benefit, the second for hers.)
I guess I'm politely biding time while I sort out if I'm staying or going. Since I can't really see a path back to a satisfying marriage with her, maybe that is dumb anyways. I mean, why not put my cards on the table now? But I am hesitating.
But, so help me, if she does anything rash it will trigger The Talk immediately.... and she will feel her world is ending.
By the way, you may be curious: what is the super stressful job she has? Is she a stock broker? Brain surgeon? Defense lawyer? Bounty hunter? Test pilot? No. She works for the county park system, teaching nature programs to kids.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2016 8:26:12 GMT -5
Honestly, it sounds like you have one foot out the door already. If her changing jobs is going to "flip the switch" for you on divorce, it would be a kindness to tell her that upfront so that she doesn't leave a secure job.
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Post by LITW on Apr 28, 2016 8:30:41 GMT -5
Oh Dan .... I feel your pain! My wife's daughter is 27 and she IS "not socially functioning" due to bipolar, uncontrolled anxiety, and a history of substance abuse. She is incapable of making smart life choices and incapable of living alone, and we cannot afford residential treatment for her, so she lives with us, and when I say lives with us, she almost never leaves the house. Further she has a very highly sense of her own privacy, but zero respect for our privacy. If I had to guess, I would say she is the number 1 contributor to my SM.
Kicking her out is not an option, we have already talked about that. Stepdaughter has already been abandoned by her biological father, so if we kick her out, she will believe that everyone has abandoned her. Given her history of making poor life choices and suicide attempts, we are convinced kicking her out will result with her death, and that's not an outcome either of us is comfortable with.
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Post by Dan on Apr 28, 2016 8:39:49 GMT -5
Honestly, it sounds like you have one foot out the door already. If her changing jobs is going to "flip the switch" for you on divorce, it would be a kindness to tell her that upfront so that she doesn't leave a secure job. I totally agree with both points. However, she is unlikely to see the "kindness" in the act of me forcing her hand (to stay in a job she finds too stressful) AND giving her the stress of a divorce and unmarried life. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2016 8:52:53 GMT -5
Better than her leaving her job and then having no income while being divorced. And no, she's not going to see any "kindness" in your actions if you choose to proceed with divorce, but you'll know you did the right thing by allowing her to make a choice based on the facts of her upcoming situation. You're not going to be able to control her feelings and responses - all you can do is try to be reasonable and as considerate as possible. If you decide to divorce, that is.
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Post by JMX on Apr 28, 2016 9:59:46 GMT -5
Dan - I know we have touched on this a bit in the past, so forgive me if I am not remembering correctly - your backstories left out if you ever had The Talk (TM). Have you?
Either way / here is your dilemma - which, is the same outcome either way:
She gets mad when you mention the job situation and that you think in the future you all won't make it, changes jobs anyway and now you're stuck with a bigger bill or, you keep this to yourself, she changes jobs and your still stuck with the bigger bill.
Chances are, if you have The Talk(TM), voice your concern for the future, you at least have a chance that she will comply and stay in her job.
Maybe through all of this, she actually tries and works on your marriage in the long run.
Maybe (just maybe) she won't be as upset as you think she will and let's you go without the issues you suspect.
*For example, I heard somewhere that we all fear death because we think we are so important that no one will be able to go on without us. The truth is, they will move on and that fact is harder to swallow - this is the real reason we fear death.
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Post by bballgirl on Apr 28, 2016 10:24:18 GMT -5
Honestly, it sounds like you have one foot out the door already. If her changing jobs is going to "flip the switch" for you on divorce, it would be a kindness to tell her that upfront so that she doesn't leave a secure job. I totally agree with both points. However, she is unlikely to see the "kindness" in the act of me forcing her hand (to stay in a job she finds too stressful) AND giving her the stress of a divorce and unmarried life. There really isn't anything kind about divorce where one person wants it and the other doesn't. Reading your post reminded me of my situation a little and my decision to get out quick because I thought ex would have a heart attack or stroke and I'd be stuck. The night I told my ex he threatened to quit his job to try and manipulate me. He thought I would say " ok please don't quit, I'll stay", emotions were up and down for 4 months right up until the day I moved out. The day he got served he was screaming at me, telling me he hates me, the day I moved out he accused me of being a thief and stealing money from him. My point: no matter when it happens it's not pretty. I do believe there is an optimal time to leave sort of like a best window of opportunity. This might be yours. If she quits and you earn even more than her then you will be supporting 2 household for more than 20K. As far as kids. They love both their parents and want them to be happy. My ex and I are still very involved with kids and we both see them almost everyday through their activities so the kid thing is what you make of it as a team together. My ex and I have done a good job of working together for the sake of the kids happiness. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 28, 2016 10:26:08 GMT -5
Just a note about working on your conversation Dan. My line has always been, " please find a job with similar salary, before you quit this one". That does sound like, " I am in full control, you have no say ,or no input." Have you printed out a budget with graphs showing her the importance of her salary, discussed changes in spending, and ask for her input. Even if she doesn't have the answers, you are including her in the decisions, and valuing her input.
Also, where is it written in stone that you have to fund college? Personally since we have a large family (6 kids) that is out of the questions. We talk scholarships, and two year degrees at affordable community schools.
I hope I am wrong. She may feel she has little to add, because you keep using the same line on her, a dozen times.
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Post by DryCreek on Apr 28, 2016 10:47:54 GMT -5
Just a thought on strategic employment... university employees often get free tuition for their kids. That could be a way to kill two birds with one stone if you have a university nearby that the kids might attend.
Question for an attorney would be: if she voluntarily leaves higher-paying job, how does that affect the math for you financially? Can the court be convinced that her earning potential is clearly X when calculating your obligation? i.e., it shouldn't be your burden if she chooses not to realize her earning potential. Ditto for retirement.
Do you think she might be making a play to keep you financially bound? Would her tune change if she realized the only person she'd hurt is herself? (I may be putting way too much thought into this.)
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Post by Dan on Apr 28, 2016 11:00:27 GMT -5
Just a thought on strategic employment... university employees often get free tuition for their kids. That could be a way to kill two birds with one stone if you have a university nearby that the kids might attend. Question for an attorney would be: if she voluntarily leaves higher-paying job, how does that affect the math for you financially? Can the court be convinced that her earning potential is clearly X when calculating your obligation? i.e., it shouldn't be your burden if she chooses not to realize her earning potential. Ditto for retirement. Do you think she might be making a play to keep you financially bound? Would her tune change if she realized the only person she'd hurt is herself? (I may be putting way too much thought into this.) I've considered all of these -- but your input is appreciated. She's considered seeking a position with a university for this reason. But she thinks driving over 30 mins is "far" for a job, and the university options are about an hour. Plus: not sure if she'll be viewed as employable by them. (FYI, in my part of the country, I'd wager that fewer than 25% of folks drive LESS than 30 minutes to get work.) The "level of support" question was on my mind and was the genesis of my thread a few weeks ago about the "free first consultation with divorce attorney". If I have to say the words "I'm going to start separation proceedings" BEFORE she utters "I've quit my job", well, that is a VERY dangerous game of "chicken" that she doesn't even know she is playing. No, I don't think she is "making a play to keep me bound". If she was that conniving, screw it, I'd just leave her. But she is thinking it will "help save the marriage". Admittedly, I can spend a bit more time on my job, and my homelife is a bit nicer if she does more of the shopping and cooking. (I did see that during her leave of absence.) But that didn't result in any more intimacy last time, and that is what I need to stay. |
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Post by Dan on Apr 28, 2016 11:16:05 GMT -5
That does sound like, " I am in full control, you have no say ,or no input." Far, far from it. My phrasing "please find a comparable job before quitting" is giving her LOTS of room to pick a new job, decide when to change. All I'm asking is "and if it makes less, or you want to quit before you have a job, we have to talk more about this". She knows that is my position. She's the one who is considering a drastic change to the family's finances. Because I had nothing to add this morning she retorted "fine, I'll just make the decision on my own". Who's seizing control here? She is the one deciding to look for other work; I haven't stopped he from that. She has suggested lots of options that make about half her current salary... and I've repeatedly stated "I don't think that is financially wise". She is seeking my input, and I'm giving it: "don't quit with the expectation that you'll easily find a job after you quit -- that is WAY to risky for us financially". That is not me being controlling: that is me being honest about where I stand, and being open and up front with her about our finances. She agrees we don't have enough money as it is for some much needed household repairs. She's the one who wants to plan a family vacation and has no idea how to pay for that, let alone college. (Yes, we are considering community college, loans, scholarships, etc.) She's wanting less stress, yet willing considering driving us in to SUBSTANTIALLY more financial stress. I don't consider pointing out her illogic to her as "being controlling". |
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 28, 2016 11:35:32 GMT -5
Thanks for clarifying that Dan. I was hoping for this response. Thought I could help you along there. Your original post could swing either way. Wise to get a new job before quitting the old. So many families today need two incomes just to get by! Another factor for higher SM and divorce.
I have reached a point of avoidance after years of having any leadership or input rejected. Sorry for these emotionally pressing times! You are not dumping, thanks for sharing!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2016 17:04:54 GMT -5
Honestly, it sounds like you have one foot out the door already. If her changing jobs is going to "flip the switch" for you on divorce, it would be a kindness to tell her that upfront so that she doesn't leave a secure job. I totally agree with both points. However, she is unlikely to see the "kindness" in the act of me forcing her hand (to stay in a job she finds too stressful) AND giving her the stress of a divorce and unmarried life. I just have to be amazed, once again, at these women who expect so much. I've never in my life had the nerve to insist on being financially supported by a man AND withhold sex at the same time. The only times I didn't have SOME income coming in, I was laid off from jobs - and during those times, I always made a serious effort to find a new job. But these wives, they don't want a stressful job. Some of them don't want a job at all. But, they also don't want any reduction in their lifestyle. And they don't want to have a sexual relationship with their husbands. What did I miss here, when I was learning how to be a woman? Did I skip school on the day they were teaching "How to demand everything and give nothing"? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2016 17:05:49 GMT -5
Better than her leaving her job and then having no income while being divorced. And no, she's not going to see any "kindness" in your actions if you choose to proceed with divorce, but you'll know you did the right thing by allowing her to make a choice based on the facts of her upcoming situation. You're not going to be able to control her feelings and responses - all you can do is try to be reasonable and as considerate as possible. If you decide to divorce, that is. Most refusers don't see any "kindness" unless they are getting their own way about every single thing. |
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Post by unmatched on Apr 28, 2016 19:24:29 GMT -5
Dan, from what you have written I get that you don't think she is making a play to keep you bound, and it sounds like you are giving her lots of room to make her own decisions about taking a new job and what salary she will be on. What I don't hear is her being really interested in stepping up and taking full responsibility for your family finances. It sounds like she wants to work and she wants to be bringing money in, but doesn't want to tie herself to thinking about how much money you guys have and how much you need/want, and is more or less content to have you there as a safety net to make sure everything doesn't fall apart. I also don't think there is any awareness there at all that you might be thinking about a divorce, and if on some level she is aware of it then she is in denial.
If she is talking about 'working on her marriage' (I don't know what she means by that), that is a good opportunity to start speaking a bit more frankly. You don't need to say 'I want out' but you could say something like 'I don't want to be in a relationship which is ....' That gives you a chance to discuss what working on the marriage might actually look like, but also if she has half a brain it will give her a sense that she might be on shaky foundations and that being a bit more independent financially would be a very good thing for her.
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