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Post by McRoomMate on Mar 7, 2017 17:24:30 GMT -5
How did you get there? It took years. Looking back on the first 10 yrs. of our 24 yrs. together, they were just okay. I can't give you a count! That should say something? Was it weekly, monthly? (it certainly wasn't daily, or even every other day!) There's nothing that memorable about it. I remember having to be the initiator,and dealing with the rejections that made the whole act of intercourse kind of random. I do recall the few times of aggressiveness when it was time to procreate! ( which prooves her capability when it fit her need) But certain "episodes" with a past girlfriend will always be memorable. I do remember after our move, (14 yrs ago) a lot of change took place. One of those was the end of sex. that's when I started keeping track. Things went to once a year for ten yrs. Then there was 3 1/2 yrs of nothing. Then I discovered EP after going through a re-set weekend, and coming home with a list of some of the most devastating, heart crushing words, and actions. (over a year ago) I still was in the FOG. It took being told by fine people on here, and my therapist, that it was over a long time ago. Only then did I become a counter refuser. Some of us are just to damn committed, scared, and laden with guilt! There was no sexual advances to refuse (just the peck goodbye that I would get) what I refused was to be rejected, disrespected, lied to, taken advantage of, and realize that the only way to find joy was to start gaining ground by serving myself with the help of others around me. To refuse to be manipulated by a controller, and say "no" with words and actions. Hence the divorce. I can really think of only a couple of times that were memorable with my wife in over 20 years of being together. Nothing in at least the last 10 years. On the other hand with my ex, I can think of many memorable times. The difference is that my ex actually likes sex. Too bad the other parts of the marriage didn't work out as well. . . . And might we say "THIRD TIME is a charm"? |
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Post by csl on Mar 7, 2017 17:51:50 GMT -5
After a near divorce agreement, my W and I had passionate reset sex that quickly turned into blah blah blah. So my W has made some moves on me later realizing I was serious and sustained seriousness. It is sort of obvious and I said no in terms of body language and the most convincing ways possible. So yes, now it is I the Counter-Refuser unquestionably (if it were a tennis game the ball is in my court no doubt) and I shall not respond. So any Counter-Refusers out there and how did you get there? All ears to listen and learn. Question - have you actually sat down with your wife and told her that Reset sex isn't going to work, that it has to be a sustained effort to change the climate of the marriage. That the status can no longer remain quo, and that a slide back into mediocrity is to be expected, then you're out? So many refusers do think that an Indian Summer can keep winter at bay, it might be worth the trouble of informing her that you are no longer susceptible to the tactic that says that "interim reinforcement will keep you hooked." |
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Post by McRoomMate on Mar 7, 2017 18:26:11 GMT -5
After a near divorce agreement, my W and I had passionate reset sex that quickly turned into blah blah blah. So my W has made some moves on me later realizing I was serious and sustained seriousness. It is sort of obvious and I said no in terms of body language and the most convincing ways possible. So yes, now it is I the Counter-Refuser unquestionably (if it were a tennis game the ball is in my court no doubt) and I shall not respond. So any Counter-Refusers out there and how did you get there? All ears to listen and learn. Question - have you actually sat down with your wife and told her that Reset sex isn't going to work, that it has to be a sustained effort to change the climate of the marriage. That the status can no longer remain quo, and that a slide back into mediocrity is to be expected, then you're out? So many refusers do think that an Indian Summer can keep winter at bay, it might be worth the trouble of informing her that you are no longer susceptible to the tactic that says that "interim reinforcement will keep you hooked." Thank-you for putting me to the test and should be the right thing to do next. Confront and call her bluff or maybe it is not a bluff and genuine. In all transparency, I am just not so inclined to bother. My focus is an intense study of My Heart at the moment and brutal honesty as to what I find or do not find. This now is just not an "SM" issue as I have been interacting on this Forum and in my meditations, prayers, analyses, researches etc. The "SM" was just the tip of the iceberg as they say. The problems in my current M are just so deeper and wider than simply "SM". A lot of water under the bridge, many years, many changes. As Morrissey sang "Has the World changed or have I changed." Still, appreciate your thought provoking question. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 7, 2017 19:22:52 GMT -5
Yes, I'm deep in to counter-refusing right now.
Want the long version? Here's how it happened:
STAGE 1: Ask for sex. Sometimes get it. Develop the marital dynamic that I have to ask/persue; she is the gatekeeper. Deal with it for a while -- buying in to the social bias "men always want it more".
STAGE 2: Ask for sex... notice that I'm getting rejected a lot. Listen carefully to her reasons ("too tired", "too many chores", "stressed about yada yada yada"). Do everything husbandly possible to "fix" those "reasons". Deal with it some more -- after all, I'm just a horny man. [This the WHY-CHASING stage.]
STAGE 3: Ask for sex. Start to feel guilty just for asking. Come up with elaborate procedures to get her in the mood: "choreplay", massages; complimenting her look; being funny and upbeat; suggest date nights and an occasional weekend getaway; lots of clever sexual innuendo. Deal with it some more -- after all, all guys think about is sex. [This is the BURNING THE BACON SCENTED CANDLES stage.]
STAGE 4: Experiment with outsourcing. Not to give up on the marriage... in fact to RELIEVE the hounding on her, while I get some romance and intimacy and sex in a side relationship/FWB thing. Start asking my wife for sex less often: that should raise the PERCENTAGE of time she says yes, right? Nope. ~10-20% hit rate if I ask daily; ~10-20% if I ask weekly. So it never really was about asking too often, right?
During stage 4: HOLY SMOKES! Discover there are women out there -- real women -- who LIKE sex and WANT to have SEX! Mind exploding realization!!! Nice women: lonely housewives and single moms. Good folk, like me. Finally stop the self-flagellation that "only men want sex" (and the implicit "wanting sex is scoldworthy"); begin to suspect it really is my wife who has the issue.
STAGE 5: Still in the marriage. Find that when I even ask for sex, I start to feel this weird guilt/rejection even before she rejects me. This intensifies over time.
STAGE 6: The distress about my lackluster sex life leads to many, many years of emotional eating. Weight gain. Moderate body images issues now undermine my own confidence in the sack. Minor health problems (associated with weight) lead to occasional and minor performance problems. Weight gain also leads to snoring... while this is eventually addressed, it is the purported cause of many, many nights not even sleeping in the same bed -- a few cases of months-long intervals.
In a marriage with normal, healthy sexual relations, those things would be dealt with lovingly and in stride: just a small pebble in the road. But in our sex-challenged marriage, these become MAJOR speed bumps.
STAGE 7: The rejection is so internalized, all I have to do is THINK about sex with her, and I go straight to that "rejected feeling", which totally drains my libido for her in the moment. I also stop flirting with her verbally, as even suggestive humor with her makes me feel cheap/bad. The thought of offering her a massage (my go-to get-her-in-the-mood move) now makes me feel nauseatingly needy. I also notice I start to feel awkward if watching TV with her and sex scenes come on.
Her health intervenes: she develops a serious back problem. This interferes with many aspects of her life. It definitely impacts her comfort during sex, so we try minor adjustments to selected activities. But most of the time it just means she gets a lousy night sleep, and is very tired the next day, making life difficult and intimacy of even LESS interest to her. She finally decides to get back surgery. Alas, it is a long, VERY painful recovery -- sex is DEFINITELY OUT for six months, and VERY light going for another six months after that. Eventually, she is fully recovered and admits the surgery was well worth it. (Not that it brings back her libido, mind you.)
STAGE 8: I loved her long dark hair when I met her. It got shorter and shorter through the years of motherhood, much to my chagrin. Then she decides she's old enough to stop coloring her hair. And then decides if it was grey, it would look better short. REALLY short -- shorter than mine. It doesn't look bad... but in a one year span, she goes from me feeling reasonably sexually attracted to her to me developing the sexual attraction for her that I'd have for an old man. (At the time, I conclude she is just blissfully unaware of the impact of her choice on how physically attractive I find her. Later, some here suggests "maybe she did it on purpose".)
Also during this period: find ILIASM. Begin to buy-in to the theory that "some people are just set with a lower sex drive... and you probably can't change them". Begin to allow myself to think about divorce as a viable option for me.
STAGE 9: A few times, she spontaneously (no argument or Talk) attempts reset intimacy. What I would have given for HER to initiate over the years! But now: it is awkward. It is clumsy. I don't really know what to do. Sometimes it is kind of OK. Sometimes I just grit my teeth and pray that she stops fondling me soon. Sometimes it actually makes me weep.
Her advances are hard to accept, as I have a nagging suspicion she is doing this out of a place "I don't want to lose him". That thought becomes a new libido-killing tool in my sadly growing toolbox full of self-inflicted libido-killers.
STAGE 10: become so accustomed to undermining myself with sexual thoughts for her with "instant rejection", that I simply and naturally just start asking her less. And less. And less. Realizing "if I think about sex with her less often, I feel rejected less often".
And one day, "less" becomes "zero"... and my journey to battle-scarred counter-refuser is complete.
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Post by baza on Mar 7, 2017 20:22:00 GMT -5
Brilliant Brother @dan This ought go up as a permanent story, or sticky. Hows about it ModCasper ? |
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Post by randy53 on Mar 7, 2017 20:51:51 GMT -5
It's a play for power & control. Reset is a devious tactic. My Ex never really even tried, & that was ok. It kept my path clear. It proves (in my way of thinking) that they consider sex a weapon & that isn't at all what I want from sex. I want shared experience between equals, an expression is deep sensual love & lust - not a dog treat to keep me in line & make me bend to their authority. I will be the authority (the author) of my own sexuality. I agree with baza, too, that it also just comes down to: I only want to have a root with someone who wants me, not someone who wants my wallet, my dishwashing, wants me to behave according to their agenda. I want someone who wouldn't waste years if my life sexless. I want someone who appreciates & desires my sex, sensuality, & satisfaction. I could not find that staying in my SM, & by the end, we both knew we were (now) a mismatch. Don't fall for it & don't feel bad about it. It's a control move & not about a loving expression. I don't want sex that is "given" out of fear. I love the way you write @ grantgreek |
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Post by McRoomMate on Mar 8, 2017 2:11:58 GMT -5
Yes, I'm deep in to counter-refusing right now. Want the long version? Here's how it happened: STAGE 1: Ask for sex. Sometimes get it. Develop the marital dynamic that I have to ask/persue; she is the gatekeeper. Deal with it for a while (buying in to the social bias "men always want it more"). STAGE 2: Ask for sex... notice that I'm getting rejected a lot. Listen carefully to her reasons ("too tired", "too many chores", "stressed about yada yada yada"). Do everything husbandly possible to "fix" those "reasons". Deal with it some more (after all, I'm just a horny man.) [WHY-CHASING] STAGE 3: Ask for sex. Start to feel guilty just for asking. Come up with elaborate procedures to get her in the mood: "choreplay", massages; complimenting her look; being funny and upbeat; suggest date nights and an occasional weekend getaway; lots of clever sexual innuendo. Deal with it some more (after all, all guys think about is sex.) [BURNING THE BACON SCENTED CANDLES] STAGE 4: Experiment with outsourcing. Not to give up on the marriage... in fact to RELIEVE the hounding on her, while I get some romance and intimacy and sex in a side relationship/FWB thing. Start asking my wife for sex less often: that should raise the PERCENTAGE of time she says yes, right? Nope. ~10-20% hit rate if I ask daily; ~10-20% if I ask weekly. So it never really was about asking too often, right? During stage 4: HOLY SMOKES! Discover there are women out there -- real women -- who LIKE sex and WANT to have SEX! Mind exploding realization!!! Nice women: lonely housewives and single moms. Good folk, like me. Finally stop the self-flagellation that "only men want sex" (and the implicit "wanting sex is scoldworthy"); begin to suspect it really is my wife who has the issue. STAGE 5: Still in the marriage. Find that when I even ask for sex, I start to feel this weird guilt/rejection even before she rejects me. This intensifies over time. STAGE 6: The distress about my lackluster sex life leads to many, many years of emotional eating. Weight gain. Moderate body images issues now undermine my own confidence in the sack. Minor health problems (associated with weight) lead to occasional and minor performance problems. Weight gain also leads to snoring... while this is eventually addressed, it is the purported cause of many, many nights not even sleeping in the same bed -- a few case of weeks-long intervals. In a marriage with normal, healthy sexual relations, those things would be dealt with lovingly and in stride: just a small pebble in the road. But in our sex-challenged marriage, these become a MAJOR speed bumps. STAGE 7: The rejection is so internalized, all I have to do is THINK about sex with her, and I go straight to that "rejected feeling", which totally drains my libido for her in the moment. I also stop flirting with her verbally, as even suggestive humor with her makes me feel cheap/bad. The thought of offering her a massage (my go-to get-her-in-the-mood move) now makes me feel nauseatingly needy. I also notice I start to feel awkward if watching TV with her and sex scenes come on. STAGE 8: I loved her long dark hair when I met her. It got shorter and shorter through the years of motherhood, much to my chagrin. Then she decides she's old enough to stop coloring her hair. And then decides if it was grey, it would look better short. REALLY short -- shorter than mine. It doesn't look bad... but in a one year span, she goes from me feeling reasonably sexually attracted to her to me developing the sexual attraction for her that I'd have for an old man. STAGE 9: A few times, she spontaneously (no argument or Talk) attempts reset intimacy. It is awkward. It is clumsy. I don't really know what to do. Sometimes I just grit my teeth and pray that she stops fondling me soon. Sometimes it actually makes me weep. Also during this period: find ILIASM. Begin to buy-in to the theory that "some people are just set with a lower sex drive... and you probably can't change them". Begin to allow myself to think about divorce as a viable option for me. STAGE 10: become so accustomed to undermining myself with sexual thoughts for her with "instant rejection", that I simply and naturally just start asking her less. And less. And less. Realizing "if I think about sex with her less often, I feel rejected less often". And one day, "less" becomes "zero"... and my journey to battle-scarred counter-refuser is complete. @dan You are a HERO sir. If a "Medal of Honor" for battling an SM could be awarded - no question you should be awarded it. If there is a such a thing as Kharma I would expect a miracle (and not from your W! but even better) coming your way sooner or later - what an amazing story of Will and Love and Determination. Full respect for your valiant and good faith efforts for so many years. Really amazing and heart breaking too but your Heart is full of courage and hope in my book. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 8, 2017 8:10:08 GMT -5
Yes, I'm deep in to counter-refusing right now. ... And one day, "less" becomes "zero"... and my journey to battle-scarred counter-refuser is complete. @dan You are a HERO sir. If a "Medal of Honor" for battling an SM could be awarded - no question you should be awarded it. If there is a such a thing as Kharma I would expect a miracle (and not from your W! but even better) coming your way sooner or later - what an amazing story of Will and Love and Determination. Full respect for your valiant and good faith efforts for so many years. Really amazing and heart breaking too but your Heart is full of courage and hope in my book. Brilliant Brother @dan This ought go up as a permanent story, or sticky , baza : It is very generous of you to suggest there is something praiseworthy in my tale. But if it weren't for the fact that I am 1000% dedicated to my kids (and that is the main reason I'm sticking with it for the time being), I think I would mostly be a strong candidate for the "Stupid Medal", or "Patron Saint of Lost Causes", or "Just Too Dumb To Know When To Call It Quits Medal". Tomato, Tomatoe.... |
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Post by hopingforachange on Mar 8, 2017 8:26:22 GMT -5
DanThank you for sharing what you went thru.
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 8, 2017 8:41:26 GMT -5
@dan You are a HERO sir. If a "Medal of Honor" for battling an SM could be awarded - no question you should be awarded it. If there is a such a thing as Kharma I would expect a miracle (and not from your W! but even better) coming your way sooner or later - what an amazing story of Will and Love and Determination. Full respect for your valiant and good faith efforts for so many years. Really amazing and heart breaking too but your Heart is full of courage and hope in my book. Brilliant Brother @dan This ought go up as a permanent story, or sticky , baza : It is very generous of you to suggest there is something praiseworthy in my tale. But if it weren't for the fact that I am 1000% dedicated to my kids (and that is the main reason I'm sticking with it for the time being), I think I would mostly be a strong candidate for the "Stupid Medal", or "Patron Saint of Lost Causes", or "Just Too Dumb To Know When To Call It Quits Medal". Tomato, Tomatoe.... Dan, may I be bold enough to ask, have you spoken with your kids about the divorce option? About "everyone's" well being? Ask for their input in the situation? For me, half my flock will be legally adults in a year. Th other half have a head full of street knowledge. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 8, 2017 8:44:34 GMT -5
I was a counter refuser. I wanted him for 20 years until one day I no longer did. I was faithful for 21 sexless years, then I outsourced and had incredible sex. After that I could never have sex again with my H because I realized what a selfish man he was and how he just used me for so many years. You, my dear, refused more than sex! You refused being violated, disrespected, used, taken advantage of, and being manipulated and controlled. |
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Post by iceman on Mar 8, 2017 9:02:38 GMT -5
I can really think of only a couple of times that were memorable with my wife in over 20 years of being together. Nothing in at least the last 10 years. On the other hand with my ex, I can think of many memorable times. The difference is that my ex actually likes sex. Too bad the other parts of the marriage didn't work out as well. . . . And might we say "THIRD TIME is a charm"? I'm not counting on it but one can hope .... |
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Post by csl on Mar 8, 2017 9:13:56 GMT -5
Here is a song for counter refusers: link |
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Post by McRoomMate on Mar 8, 2017 11:27:35 GMT -5
McRoomMate , baza : It is very generous of you to suggest there is something praiseworthy in my tale. But if it weren't for the fact that I am 1000% dedicated to my kids (and that is the main reason I'm sticking with it for the time being), I think I would mostly be a strong candidate for the "Stupid Medal", or "Patron Saint of Lost Causes", or "Just Too Dumb To Know When To Call It Quits Medal". Tomato, Tomatoe.... Dan, may I be bold enough to ask, have you spoken with your kids about the divorce option? About "everyone's" well being? Ask for their input in the situation? For me, half my flock will be legally adults in a year. Th other half have a head full of street knowledge. That is a valid point - For me marriage has ALWAYS unfortunately been "about the kids" - I got blackmailed in my first marriage - my wife to be said - either you marry me or an abortion - I stuck it out for a few years and then escaped when she finally cheated on me (First Marriage total disaster). Now in this marriage for about 5 years I have been saying that I have "2 good reasons" to be in this marriage (i.e., our 2 kids). I am sorry but I just cannot - I have suppressed my heart and ignored it long enough and to avoid my psyche from fragmenting into neurosis and toxic states - no question - I need to follow MY HEART - I will do everything to be a good father but not at the expense of staying in my current marriage. That is just my experience and situation everyone - each his own. "Stay together for the kids" - that is what society, the church, so many say, and there are strong arguments for many reasons -both for and against. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 8, 2017 12:18:24 GMT -5
Here is a song for counter refusers: linkLOL!!! a) I love country songs that poke fun at country songs; this has the line to the effect of "my life has become a country song". b) I love the couplet BEFORE the tag line: "Some nights I might feel frisky / But these days it's just too risky!"... AIN'T IT THE TRUTH! |
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