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Post by leifericson on Mar 2, 2017 6:51:17 GMT -5
Mcroomate, that is a very astute observation. Perhaps there is no chance to change a SM because at the essence the refuser finds their spouse repugnant physically even if not as a roommate. Maybe that is st the core of bringing sex back into a SM. Could it just be that it is what it is and will always be?
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Post by McRoomMate on Mar 2, 2017 8:54:36 GMT -5
Mcroomate, that is a very astute observation. Perhaps there is no chance to change a SM because at the essence the refuser finds their spouse repugnant physically even if not as a roommate. Maybe that is st the core of bringing sex back into a SM. Could it just be that it is what it is and will always be? How can this not be the case in at least SOME situations. I think the general consensus is SM is caused by a repugnance to Sex in general - not individual specific. Well I think there is also "SPECIFIC" repugnance - for whatever reason as the psyche and subjectivity goes deep as the abyss down down subconscious unconscious - unfathomable. Lost in the mists of time and unfathomable into the bottomless pit of the human psyche and heart. So yes - all I see on these threads is an OBJECTIVE rejection of SEX but in some cases - how can it not be a SUBJECTIVE rejection of the H / W but conveniently or superficially masked as Sex / Intimacy rejection and then dig deeper and voila. I TOTALLY DISCLAIM on how the above applies to any one's situation - Heck, I cannot even barely apply all this murkiness to my own. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 2, 2017 14:12:50 GMT -5
I think only one condition is needed to turn a sexless marriage around, the first. And others will fall into place. It doesn't mean the LL spouse will turn HL though. Nor HL turn LL. Otherwise better to leave and look for the right person. Again... We had tons of love. And it didn't prevent us from the long slow decline in to sexlessness. She really wanted (and still wants) the marriage to continue; I really wanted the marriage to continue, and to achieve a greater quantity and variety of sex. So over the years, I tried, and tried something else. I thought about it, analyzed it, went to therapy (individual and couples) and tried again, and then tried yet something else. Twenty years of why-chasing long before I came to ILIASM and learned the term. I burned through every fucking bacon-scented candle in the box long before I came to ILIASM and learned the term. If "true mutual love" is supposed to be sufficient for fixing our SM, then why didn't it in my case PREVENT our long slow decline in to sexlessness? Furthermore, the now-persistent sexlessness has eroded the trust needed for us to recover. My experience is not: "true love is sufficient to turn around marital sexlessness". Rather my experience is: "sexlessness leads to the irreversible erosion of true love." |
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Post by richfairy72 on Mar 2, 2017 14:17:46 GMT -5
These are some ideas that I'm testing in my own relationship. Is my wife willing to do these things? Am I willing to do them for my wife? Are you willing to do something that may not always bring you happiness? Are you willing to sacrifice for your spouse? Does it make you happy to do something for your spouse they like? Do you want to do the work to develop a deep bond? I see these questions as a type of love measurement. If you love someone then it want be hard to do the above things. Someone pointed me to this and I found it helpful (and appropriate to your question). www.5lovelanguages.com/profile/Take the quiz. It turns out that my wife and I are most likely speaking two different languages. I say most likely since she never took it, but I've known her 23 years so put my best assessment in. But I would agree with bballgirl . My next relationship is going to be an absolute "no bullshit" affair. I read the 5 love languages book, and made my husband do the profile. Turns out he would rather eat a meal than have sex with his wife. Wtf? |
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Post by richfairy72 on Mar 2, 2017 14:24:23 GMT -5
I think only one condition is needed to turn a sexless marriage around, the first. And others will fall into place. It doesn't mean the LL spouse will turn HL though. Nor HL turn LL. Otherwise better to leave and look for the right person. Love conquers all, eh? I dunno. If one side doesn't realize there is a problem how can it be fixed? Exactly, shamwow, you have hit the nail on the head! |
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Post by richfairy72 on Mar 2, 2017 14:26:47 GMT -5
I have always said that nobody has a marriage like the one that I have. I have always thought it, and I still think it to this day. My marriage is one of dependence/co-dependence. We get along great most of the time, and are like roommates. "Sex" is completely non-existent. None! We don't even see each other naked. Sexual contact has always been something that she disliked and/or felt uncomfortable with. It saddens me really, because she really is a good person. She just doesn't have the interest or desire, and never had it. I get so frustrated sometimes, and this has been going on for so many years!!!! I have always had in my mind what a good marriage relationship should be, but I have never had it. I also struggle with guilt. Should I leave because there is no sex in my marriage? What if I never find it? Or what if I get into a situation that is worse then what I have? What about her? What will happen to her? My family? What would that make me in the eyes of family? I feel so selfish for even asking for such a thing from her. It is a dead end, and there is no hope. I ask myself this question all the time.... If I were to leave this marriage and start over again, would it really make me any happier or would it make it worse. My fears are often thinking that it would be worse.... Therefore, I stay in this situation. I don't know what anyone here would call this, or even if you think that I am crazy; hell I know I am crazy! But this is what has been going thru my mind for many years. Change your wife to my husband and we're in the same exact boat. Staying is making me miserable but I feel so guilty and scared to leave. Its pretty much a living hell. Me too, Carol, and you will find plenty others on here with the same problem. You are not alone. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 2, 2017 14:39:42 GMT -5
I read the 5 love languages book, and made my husband do the profile. Turns out he would rather eat a meal than have sex with his wife. Wtf? Why can't we have both a meal and sex? My idea of a nice evening: - cook a fabulous dinner for my lover
- have her for dessert
... or maybe as the appetizer. Or before and after! |
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Post by McRoomMate on Mar 2, 2017 16:50:22 GMT -5
I think only one condition is needed to turn a sexless marriage around, the first. And others will fall into place. It doesn't mean the LL spouse will turn HL though. Nor HL turn LL. Otherwise better to leave and look for the right person. Again... We had tons of love. And it didn't prevent us from the long slow decline in to sexlessness. She really wanted (and still wants) the marriage to continue; I really wanted the marriage to continue, and to achieve a greater quantity and variety of sex. So over the years, I tried, and tried something else. I thought about it, analyzed it, went to therapy (individual and couples) and tried again, and then tried yet something else. Twenty years of why-chasing long before I came to ILIASM and learned the term. I burned through every fucking bacon-scented candle in the box long before I came to ILIASM and learned the term. If "true mutual love" is supposed to be sufficient for fixing our SM, then why didn't it in my case PREVENT our long slow decline in to sexlessness? Furthermore, the now-persistent sexlessness has eroded the trust needed for us to recover. My experience is not: "true love is sufficient to turn around marital sexlessness". Rather my experience is: "sexlessness leads to the irreversible erosion of true love." @dan Your experience seems to disprove the "Mutual LOVE" scenario. However, here is the open query still not clear in my mind. If your W really loved you would she not have made some effort? I guess she tried and it was just not genuine? Or change the subject (I mean from Sex to another aspect) - like one spouse absolutely loves animals and other hates them or one spouse wants passionately to live the Big City Life and other wants the Country Farm etc etc etc. I see in your case the difference in Libido or Sex as being perhaps a tragic fatal flaw. Perhaps I am meandering - I think what I am getting at here is well to put it in legal terms "IRRECONCILABLE DIFFERENCES" - in the truest sense of the term - what it really was intended that there is just a fundamental difference between H and W that the Marriage relationship cannot endure. Anyhow I sincerely appreciate your postings on the matter. It certainly provoked thoughts in my head. More good stuff more learning more uncovering - ILIASM is an enigma and so so so much ends up getting revealed with each post and reflection. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2017 17:08:04 GMT -5
I believe if your spouse truly loves you then they will make sacrifices. Dan, your wife did not love you enough to give you sex. We can easily deceive ourselves and tell ourselves everything is good except X. Everything is not good, especially if X is something important to you. (X could be any need) If one of your top needs is not being met, then your spouse does not care. It's really simple when you break down.
The hard part is being truthful with yourself. This is where I'm at in my marriage.
Even at this current time, I'm observing how my wife treats me. Is she willing to do those things I like that make me happy. Some might look at doing these things for their spouse as a chore. I can tell you that when your spouse is happy. They will want to make you happy. It reminds me of exercise. When you first start, it does not feel that great. But when you start getting in shape, you start needing and enjoying exercising.
Before my wife started giving me sex, I started meeting her needs. I made sure that I did this for a while so that she could get a taste of being happy with her needs met. Then I let her know my needs.
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Post by shamwow on Mar 2, 2017 17:43:17 GMT -5
I believe if your spouse truly loves you then they will make sacrifices. Dan, your wife did not love you enough to give you sex. We can easily deceive ourselves and tell ourselves everything is good except X. Everything is not good, especially if X is something important to you. (X could be any need) If one of your top needs is not being met, then your spouse does not care. It's really simple when you break down. The hard part is being truthful with yourself. This is where I'm at in my marriage. Even at this current time, I'm observing how my wife treats me. Is she willing to do those things I like that make me happy. Some might look at doing these things for their spouse as a chore. I can tell you that when your spouse is happy. They will want to make you happy. It reminds me of exercise. When you first start, it does not feel that great. But when you start getting in shape, you start needing and enjoying exercising. Before my wife started giving me sex, I started meeting her needs. I made sure that I did this for a while so that she could get a taste of being happy with her needs met. Then I let her know my needs. And if they no longer love you (or you no longer love them) it's kind of time to call it a day.... |
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Post by lwoetin on Mar 3, 2017 0:10:49 GMT -5
I think only one condition is needed to turn a sexless marriage around, the first. And others will fall into place. It doesn't mean the LL spouse will turn HL though. Nor HL turn LL. Otherwise better to leave and look for the right person. Again... We had tons of love. And it didn't prevent us from the long slow decline in to sexlessness. ... My experience is not: "true love is sufficient to turn around marital sexlessness". Rather my experience is: "sexlessness leads to the irreversible erosion of true love." I am not going to disagree with your last point. 9yrs into my SM, I was close to that point. And the last act of love I offered to my wife was to let her know that I am going to leave her, before actually leaving her. Her response was, 'You can do that?'. That was 4yrs ago, things got better, and worse, but more often better than worse. I've come to accept she is not going to be HL. And that our marriage will be challenging, fulfilling, frustrating, happy, hopeful. A marriage isn't over until both partners stop trying. You may want to offer HER the last chance in saving your marriage...if you still have some true love left. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 3, 2017 7:32:48 GMT -5
A marriage isn't over until both partners stop trying. You may want to offer HER the last chance in saving your marriage...if you still have some true love left. There is some sort of love still there, both ways. And it is "real". But I'm so tired of trying to make the relationship what I crave. And I've seen what passes for "try" in her book. It is earnest... but still, not really enough. Am I "afraid to try", as in afraid of failing? That is a question my therapist put to me years ago. I had to think about it. I have to say I don't feel afraid... but I do deeply doubt trying one more time will work. I'm not afraid to try to be an astronaut; but at 50+ years old and out of shape, I dispassionately assess I would not succeed. So it is not something I plan to try. On the edge of permanent sexlessness, "save the marriage" is a slippery concept: sure, I could save the marriage. Just lower my expectations to accept "what is", sexually... and and "what is" with her somewhat pessimistic view of the world, and the fact that she doesn't really like to socialize like I do. THAT is the real rub: will I feel WORSE for "sticking with it"... or moving forward with divorce (which both attracts and scares me)? Plus I'm deep in to counter-refusing anyway. If she showed up in bed with lingerie, lotion, and a few sex toys -- a situation I would have been CRAZY HAPPY with 10 years ago -- I don't think I'd be interested today. THAT is what I mean by "eroded the trust needed for us to recover". So what's the point of "giving her a last chance" if there is NOTHING that she can do to win me back? (I've spoken a lot about my situation on this thread. Didn't mean to hijack it. Apologies to anyone who is tired of hearing my story. Thanks for letting me write about it though; it is very therapeutic.) |
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Post by McRoomMate on Mar 5, 2017 18:31:52 GMT -5
A marriage isn't over until both partners stop trying. You may want to offer HER the last chance in saving your marriage...if you still have some true love left. There is some sort of love still there, both ways. And it is "real". But I'm so tired of trying to make the relationship what I crave. And I've seen what passes for "try" in her book. It is earnest... but still, not really enough. Am I "afraid to try", as in afraid of failing? That is a question my therapist put to me years ago. I had to think about it. I have to say I don't feel afraid... but I do deeply doubt trying one more time will work. I'm not afraid to try to be an astronaut; but at 50+ years old and out of shape, I dispassionately assess I would not succeed. So it is not something I plan to try. On the edge of permanent sexlessness, "save the marriage" is a slippery concept: sure, I could save the marriage. Just lower my expectations to accept "what is", sexually... and and "what is" with her somewhat pessimistic view of the world, and the fact that she doesn't really like to socialize like I do. THAT is the real rub: will I feel WORSE for "sticking with it"... or moving forward with divorce (which both attracts and scares me)? Plus I'm deep in to counter-refusing anyway. If she showed up in bed with lingerie, lotion, and a few sex toys -- a situation I would have been CRAZY HAPPY with 10 years ago -- I don't think I'd be interested today. THAT is what I mean by "eroded the trust needed for us to recover". So what's the point of "giving her a last chance" if there is NOTHING that she can do to win me back? (I've spoken a lot about my situation on this thread. Didn't mean to hijack it. Apologies to anyone who is tired of hearing my story. Thanks for letting me write about it though; it is very therapeutic.)Ah the "COUNTER REFUSER" . . . That is me now. You think you "hijacked" the thread? Of course not! My three cents . . . not at all. Added to and enhanced. Very much appreciated your posts. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 5, 2017 19:04:17 GMT -5
A marriage isn't over until both partners stop trying. You may want to offer HER the last chance in saving your marriage...if you still have some true love left. Plus I'm deep in to counter-refusing anyway. If she showed up in bed with lingerie, lotion, and a few sex toys -- a situation I would have been CRAZY HAPPY with 10 years ago -- I don't think I'd be interested today. THAT is what I mean by "eroded the trust needed for us to recover". So what's the point of "giving her a last chance" if there is NOTHING that she can do to win me back? After looking back at an old post about submission, (on both sides) I see the connection in the trust factor. In order to submit you have to have a certain degree of trust in that other person. Your wife has claimed that she can not submit to you do to a lack of trust. You continue to submit to her desires of living on a semi-friendship level hoping to regain her trust, leading to submission, leading to intimacy? Your wife has yet to do that, and continues to control, by not trusting, not submitting, not showing intimacy. At this point the hope of any trust between you is dead. You my friend, are not dead!! Yes you have to go through hell. However you will go through it, and keep on going, trusting in the faith, hope, knowledge that you, and thousands of others, go through it and come out to a new beginning. You also gain, faith , hope and knowledge. Also an opportunity of a fresh new start, for the whole family. Just my three cents. |
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Post by McRoomMate on Mar 6, 2017 2:23:37 GMT -5
I believe if your spouse truly loves you then they will make sacrifices. Dan, your wife did not love you enough to give you sex. We can easily deceive ourselves and tell ourselves everything is good except X. Everything is not good, especially if X is something important to you. (X could be any need) If one of your top needs is not being met, then your spouse does not care. It's really simple when you break down. The hard part is being truthful with yourself. This is where I'm at in my marriage. Even at this current time, I'm observing how my wife treats me. Is she willing to do those things I like that make me happy. Some might look at doing these things for their spouse as a chore. I can tell you that when your spouse is happy. They will want to make you happy. It reminds me of exercise. When you first start, it does not feel that great. But when you start getting in shape, you start needing and enjoying exercising. Before my wife started giving me sex, I started meeting her needs. I made sure that I did this for a while so that she could get a taste of being happy with her needs met. Then I let her know my needs. And if they no longer love you (or you no longer love them) it's kind of time to call it a day.... This is called BRUTAL HONESTY - Stare at the truth - no matter how inconvenient, warts and all . . . WEIGH, DECIDE, ACT. Yesterday is finished, tomorrow is another day, what is there to wait for? |
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