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Post by McRoomMate on Feb 25, 2017 17:54:13 GMT -5
I have always said that nobody has a marriage like the one that I have. I have always thought it, and I still think it to this day. My marriage is one of dependence/co-dependence. We get along great most of the time, and are like roommates. "Sex" is completely non-existent. None! We don't even see each other naked. Sexual contact has always been something that she disliked and/or felt uncomfortable with. It saddens me really, because she really is a good person. She just doesn't have the interest or desire, and never had it. I get so frustrated sometimes, and this has been going on for so many years!!!! I have always had in my mind what a good marriage relationship should be, but I have never had it. I also struggle with guilt. Should I leave because there is no sex in my marriage? What if I never find it? Or what if I get into a situation that is worse then what I have? What about her? What will happen to her? My family? What would that make me in the eyes of family? I feel so selfish for even asking for such a thing from her. It is a dead end, and there is no hope. I ask myself this question all the time.... If I were to leave this marriage and start over again, would it really make me any happier or would it make it worse. My fears are often thinking that it would be worse.... Therefore, I stay in this situation. I don't know what anyone here would call this, or even if you think that I am crazy; hell I know I am crazy! But this is what has been going thru my mind for many years. My friend I would call your above thought process "FEAR BASED LIVING" - F.E.A.R. "Future Events Appearing Real" - There is unavoidably RISK in changes and no guarantees indeed. So I understand your position. Speaking from my own experience, I have been in good healthy (including sex and intimacy) relationships so I have a reference point. I also see others like my brother and other friends in couples who are still madly in love after many years - so there is no doubt it is possible. Likewise, after 10 years of SM I am convinced this is NOT going to change and I have no longer the will (it is smoked) for trying to change this SM. Love seems evaporated on my side. |
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Post by McRoomMate on Feb 25, 2017 18:06:26 GMT -5
Consider the following: To turn around a Sexless Marriage, the couple needs to have these 2 essential conditions fulfilled or any hope is futile: 1. BOTH must still be in love 2. BOTH must be willing to work / sacrifice / efforts for the good of the couple I will venture to say the first condition about being IN LOVE is really the main thing. The reason 99% or more of SM fail is because of a bigger problem and that is lack of genuine real "being in love" (or more mature phase of "Love" like deep affection and feelings, but love nonetheless). The spouses are not really in love but rather it is a million other reasons to keep the marriage such as: fear of being alone, social status, society approval, financial security, fear of change, stay together for the children etc. Also, many of us I think would agree - the Sexless Marriage issue after really analyzing and soul searching the Marriage is just a mere system of bigger problems in the Marriage. And all this dysfunction and toxicity which one finds upon analysis (resentment, control issues, fear based living, people pleasing, etc.) ends up killing whatever Love there ever was in the Marriage and once it is dead it is gone for good. In other words, Love cannot be fabricated or reproduced once it is dead in the relationship. Thoughts please? I think there is a critical 3rd element to your theory. That being that BOTH spouses have the *capability* to make the necessary changes. If one of the spouses does not have the *capability* of making the necessary changes - then with all the goodwill in the world, it can't work. So this theory hinges on - - - #1 - You loving the spouse (NOT being traumatically bonded or co-dependent) #2 - The spouse loving you (NOT being traumatically bonded or co-dependent) #3 - The spouses having the CAPABILITY of doing the necessary work (NOT just "the will" to give it a go) And unfortunately, there are very very few stories in here where the necessary pre-requisites in BOTH parties seem to be evident. Puts me in mind of the old 1996 Ford wagon I had for years. Had I taken it to a mechanic and given him the brief "fix this car so it goes like a NASCAR" he'd say, "forget it". But if I went in and asked him to get it running and looking as good as a 1996 Ford wagon could, that would be achievable (if I was prepared to foot the bill). What's that Dirty Harry quote ? - something along the lines - "a man gots to know his limitations" - or words to that effect. Appreciate the additional criteria. Assuming one spouse is codependent or traumatically bonded would that not sort of imply. I think my current wife might be a bit "codependent" she puts up with a lot of bad behavior from not just me but her own mother and sons. Everyone seems to be getting in problems and she rushes in to save them. My ex-Wife (first one) became an out of control alcoholic / mental basket case but I certainly was not co-dependent - it was grounds to get the hell away from her (i.e., a valid reason for "Declaration of INDEPENDENCE). If I may ask did you have any copendent or "traumatic bonding" scenario to deal with or seen this on the Forum? |
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Post by McRoomMate on Feb 25, 2017 18:10:55 GMT -5
These are some ideas that I'm testing in my own relationship. Is my wife willing to do these things? Am I willing to do them for my wife? Are you willing to do something that may not always bring you happiness? Are you willing to sacrifice for your spouse? Does it make you happy to do something for your spouse they like? Do you want to do the work to develop a deep bond? I see these questions as a type of love measurement. If you love someone then it want be hard to do the above things. Thank-you @heraclitus Asking myself all 4 of your questions to my current W and my answer to all 4 is a Resounding "Hell No" so I am pretty much "out of love" personally and currently. I think they are great questions I wish I could answer yes, but I have to be honest. Conversely, I could answer all 4 for my children. And looking back I could have answered all 4 to prior relationships I was in. So "This is not that" as the Eastern Mystic says. |
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Post by baza on Feb 25, 2017 18:24:17 GMT -5
Personally Brother @mcroommate, I think there were elements of traumatic bonding in my deal.
But that assessment is in the *here and now* and looking backward.
At the time, in the midst of the ILIASM deal, I didn't recognise it as such. (and I think I would have strenuously denied that that was the case if anyone had suggested it back then).
FWIW, I don't believe that *I* had the necessary skill set or capability for a rescue mission back then in any event. (again, this is a hindsight)
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Post by McRoomMate on Feb 25, 2017 18:40:37 GMT -5
Personally Brother @mcroommate, I think there were elements of traumatic bonding in my deal. But that assessment is in the *here and now* and looking backward. At the time, in the midst of the ILIASM deal, I didn't recognise it as such. (and I think I would have strenuously denied that that was the case if anyone had suggested it back then). FWIW, I don't believe that *I* had the necessary skill set or capability for a rescue mission back then in any event. (again, this is a hindsight) Holy cow. Light bulb sputtering now. Hmm, am I possibly "traumatic bonding" - yes, I can see possibly very subtle abuse - verbal abuse - like subliminal message programming from the W about my inadequacies over the years - repetitive in nature - FOG / DARVO techniques etc. Very very subtle . . . could be. Light bulb continues to flicker. |
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Post by lwoetin on Feb 25, 2017 20:38:22 GMT -5
I think only one condition is needed to turn a sexless marriage around, the first. And others will fall into place. It doesn't mean the LL spouse will turn HL though. Nor HL turn LL. Otherwise better to leave and look for the right person.
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Post by shamwow on Feb 25, 2017 20:53:16 GMT -5
I think only one condition is needed to turn a sexless marriage around, the first. And others will fall into place. It doesn't mean the LL spouse will turn HL though. Nor HL turn LL. Otherwise better to leave and look for the right person. Love conquers all, eh? I dunno. If one side doesn't realize there is a problem how can it be fixed? |
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Post by lwoetin on Feb 26, 2017 13:31:22 GMT -5
I think only one condition is needed to turn a sexless marriage around, the first. And others will fall into place. It doesn't mean the LL spouse will turn HL though. Nor HL turn LL. Otherwise better to leave and look for the right person. Love conquers all, eh? I dunno. If one side doesn't realize there is a problem how can it be fixed? she realizes correctly that there isn't a problem for her. But she may not realize that it is a serious problem for me. It was very important for me to make my wife realize how serious it was and if she wasn't going to do anything about it then I'm done. When only one spouse loves, it isn't a marriage. I think mutual love conquers all. I hope so, at least, else I'll be in a world of pain at some point. But life goes on either way. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2017 0:02:58 GMT -5
Love conquers all, eh? I dunno. If one side doesn't realize there is a problem how can it be fixed? she realizes correctly that there isn't a problem for her. But she may not realize that it is a serious problem for me. It was very important for me to make my wife realize how serious it was and if she wasn't going to do anything about it then I'm done. When only one spouse loves, it isn't a marriage. I think mutual love conquers all. I hope so, at least, else I'll be in a world of pain at some point. But life goes on either way. You make a great point Iwoetin. Our spouses have to understand how important our needs are. Whatever they may be. If they understand and do not care to meet them, then they may as well say I don't love you. My wife's needs are not sexual. She likes to be taken care of. This is her need. I wish that it was sex but it's not. Now my need is for loving and the wife understands that she has to meet this if I'm staying. You're right Iwoetiin. Life goes on with my spouse or without her. That's the point I'm reaching now. I've accepted that it's up to her actions if I'm staying. |
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Post by Carol on Feb 27, 2017 0:25:55 GMT -5
I have always said that nobody has a marriage like the one that I have. I have always thought it, and I still think it to this day. My marriage is one of dependence/co-dependence. We get along great most of the time, and are like roommates. "Sex" is completely non-existent. None! We don't even see each other naked. Sexual contact has always been something that she disliked and/or felt uncomfortable with. It saddens me really, because she really is a good person. She just doesn't have the interest or desire, and never had it. I get so frustrated sometimes, and this has been going on for so many years!!!! I have always had in my mind what a good marriage relationship should be, but I have never had it. I also struggle with guilt. Should I leave because there is no sex in my marriage? What if I never find it? Or what if I get into a situation that is worse then what I have? What about her? What will happen to her? My family? What would that make me in the eyes of family? I feel so selfish for even asking for such a thing from her. It is a dead end, and there is no hope. I ask myself this question all the time.... If I were to leave this marriage and start over again, would it really make me any happier or would it make it worse. My fears are often thinking that it would be worse.... Therefore, I stay in this situation. I don't know what anyone here would call this, or even if you think that I am crazy; hell I know I am crazy! But this is what has been going thru my mind for many years. Change your wife to my husband and we're in the same exact boat. Staying is making me miserable but I feel so guilty and scared to leave. Its pretty much a living hell. |
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Post by McRoomMate on Feb 27, 2017 1:36:31 GMT -5
Carol Yes me too absolutely my natural tendency can be FEAR based decisions. If staying in the marriage is making you miserable. Why do you feel guilty for leaving? What are you afraid of? I have been reading and researching there is a) "FEAR" based living and b) GOAL based living. More on that later . . .
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Post by McRoomMate on Feb 27, 2017 2:26:51 GMT -5
she realizes correctly that there isn't a problem for her. But she may not realize that it is a serious problem for me. It was very important for me to make my wife realize how serious it was and if she wasn't going to do anything about it then I'm done. When only one spouse loves, it isn't a marriage. I think mutual love conquers all. I hope so, at least, else I'll be in a world of pain at some point. But life goes on either way. You make a great point Iwoetin. Our spouses have to understand how important our needs are. Whatever they may be. If they understand and do not care to meet them, then they may as well say I don't love you. My wife's needs are not sexual. She likes to be taken care of. This is her need. I wish that it was sex but it's not. Now my need is for loving and the wife understands that she has to meet this if I'm staying. You're right Iwoetiin. Life goes on with my spouse or without her. That's the point I'm reaching now. I've accepted that it's up to her actions if I'm staying. @lwoetin heraclitus shamwow Yes if it is MUTUAL Love - both Spouses are in love or love each other deeply (assume mature love relationship). Yes, too there must be knowledge and awareness of the Loved Ones needs and giving into the relationship via more sex or whatever it is - is an expression of that Love. So I think the original hypothesis might be valid per your comments: a) BOTH spouses must be in love (or love each deeply) and b) BOTH are are willing to make efforts/work to meet the other's needs. Case in point is if the W's needs is to be "taken care of" and the one spouse does just that but the other needs more sex/INTIMACY (I would assume it is not just raw animal sex) - then there is a manifestation of lack of love being expressed. Love at the end of the day is a VERB and that means ACTIONS - not mere words. MUTUAL Love does Conquer a Marriage / Long Term Relationship indeed. |
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Post by leifericson on Mar 1, 2017 17:53:50 GMT -5
I got to a breaking point that I was no longer in love with my H. I loved him in a brotherly way as the father of my children. In 2013 we had a few of The Talks, said we would try harder, had reset sex, I was still in love still willing to work on it but with a lot of skepticism. At that point he was the only man I had ever been with. So we had reset sex 3 times in a month, it wasn't good but I didn't know just how bad it was. So after the reset sex, it was all downhill and he never initiated sex with me. Feb. 2014 I called time of death on the marriage and became a counter refuser. Later that year I met my AP, I experienced the most mind blowing sex ever. So I was in love and willing to work on the marriage but he never was. I asked him to go to marriage counseling 3 times over the course of a few years and he said no every single time. Then in 2015 when I announced the divorce he wanted to go to counseling and it was too late. I went for one session and at the end the therapist told him to get an attorney and he could continue with individual therapy. Hmmmm.... I am not sure if I am a counter refuser or not since she has not initiated an attempt. However if an attempt was made I would certainly refuse at this point. I guess that makes me a latent counter refuser? I think those of us that are here are like you Sham. We are speaking different languages with the refuser, living in different realities. Do we disgust the refuser? Is it us and not them? |
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Post by shamwow on Mar 1, 2017 18:18:16 GMT -5
Hmmmm.... I am not sure if I am a counter refuser or not since she has not initiated an attempt. However if an attempt was made I would certainly refuse at this point. I guess that makes me a latent counter refuser? I think those of us that are here are like you Sham. We are speaking different languages with the refuser, living in different realities. Do we disgust the refuser? Is it us and not them? Oh I know it ain't me. To paraphrase the philosopher Fat Bastard from Austin Powers..... "I'm damn sexy" |
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Post by McRoomMate on Mar 2, 2017 1:14:02 GMT -5
Hmmmm.... I am not sure if I am a counter refuser or not since she has not initiated an attempt. However if an attempt was made I would certainly refuse at this point. I guess that makes me a latent counter refuser? I think those of us that are here are like you Sham. We are speaking different languages with the refuser, living in different realities. Do we disgust the refuser? Is it us and not them? This is an extremely interesting question - the fundamental assumption is that the Refuser is averse to Sex/Intimacy but maybe and I am certainly not thinking of any particular case, but maybe the Refuser is just not being honest about their specific spouse. In other words, in SOME cases, the Refuser is not refusing Sex/Intimacy in general but rather refusing the Sex/Intimacy with their specific actual spouse. This would imply a level of DISHONESTY in the Refusing Spouse who is conveniently masking a refusal of sex in general for the more disturbing reality that they are no longer in love or attracted to their specific spouse. Again, I am not linking this to any specific case on these Forums, just a possibility. |
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