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Post by ihadalove on Feb 12, 2017 23:48:13 GMT -5
Hi all, I posted back somewhere around July about my situation, so I won't rehash it all here. Recent confrontations about my needs not being fulfilled have only made things worse. She doesn't feel "responsible" for my desires. When I say should I find someone who will satisfy me she says it would be easier than fighting. But that isn't what I want and I don't believe I would be ok with that situation either.
I've been improving on my end with her complaints about me, being more respectful and making her feel like an equal. More dinner dates and time out. By the way, is it common for a refuse to NEVER be up for sex after having the perfect day together by their definition? Going out and having fun is a sure way not to get any.
Anyway, we're trying a month of me not coming on to her to "take the pressure off", we tried it before and it worked okish. Of course that means no voicing my frustration or desire. Might be better than feeling like I'm throwing a hundred darts at the board to see what sticks. Or maybe I'm just fooling myself on that one. The alternative is separating I guess, which she says shes terrified of at this point (wonder why?) So far it's been a rocky start, I was lured into the shower with some slow clothes removal which led to... nothing. Naturally I got pissed. She wants me to stop reacting poorly to her refusals, but who wouldn't?!
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Post by lwoetin on Feb 13, 2017 0:13:08 GMT -5
When I say should I find someone who will satisfy me she says it would be easier than fighting. But that isn't what I want and I don't believe I would be ok with that situation either. How about just making her jealous? Join a dating site and let her know. Maybe she can assist in picking out the right girl for you. And talk to other women when she's watching. Talk about women at work or wherever. Figure out if she is really serious about agreeing to an open marriage. Sounds weird to me. But don't do anything to jeopardize your marriage since you don't want it to end. yet. Warning: My suggestions may screw up your marriage even more. |
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Post by baza on Feb 13, 2017 0:52:06 GMT -5
Since your July 27 2016 post (which attracted a fair few comments and suggestions) some 6 and a bit months have elapsed.
And, you now say - "confrontations about my needs not being fulfilled have only made things worse".
That's not terribly encouraging.
Now, she seems to have maneuvered you into an avoidant spouse speciality, the one where you "take the pressure off" by not asking for sex.
This will pan out as follows. . . .
As you desist from asking for sex, there will be no sex.
At some stage, you will point out that there has been no sex for a while.
She will respond by saying - "You never ask"
And, you will then ask.
And she will respond by saying - "now you are putting pressure on me for sex"
And there will be no sex.
It is a circular tactic that just goes around and around, much used by avoidant spouses - and, it is a pretty good tactic, which seems to be successful for those avoidant spouses who use it. (Such as your missus).
The aim is to avoid having sex with you altogether if possible, but at least minimally.
And, it is only one of many such tactics in the avoidant spouses box of tricks.
You see, if she were to level with you, and say - "Look cloudless, I don't fancy you sexually, not sure that I ever did, and I don't see me changing my attitude in the future" - that might give you cause to re-evaluate the whole situation. Particularly as you are young, no kids, and a relatively uncomplicated deal to wind up.
But make no mistake, however she dresses this up, however she puts a pretty bow on it and gift wraps it, she IS saying to you - "Look cloudless, I don't fancy you sexually, not sure that I ever did, and I don't see me changing my attitude in the future".
And that, puts the ball squarely back in your court for a response.
Whilst you are considering how you will respond, take every precaution possible to avoid impregnating her.
You don't want to complicate this situation further.
PS - re "is it common for a refuse to NEVER be up for sex after having the perfect day together by their definition?"
Yes. That is quite usual.
Although you might get "corpse sex" once every so often.
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Post by DryCreek on Feb 13, 2017 1:03:16 GMT -5
ihadalove, there's a recent thread in this section on "Sex or Pressure". Take a look. I think you'll find, like many of us have, that going completely passive to give her space... well, that's not likely to work. It just turns the tables and makes you out to be the offender. Separation, on the other hand, gives her plenty of that space she desires. It might take that level of a reset in the relationship for her to wake up to the idea that intimacy is a critical element of marriage. Otherwise, the picture is pretty much "you're there whenever she feels like it, and you leave her alone the rest of the time" - which meets her needs perfectly, so zero reason to change.
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Post by worksforme2 on Feb 13, 2017 8:23:11 GMT -5
Back in the old EP days I posted frequently about what I was doing (or did do)or trying based on the latest article or advice from supposed guru's as to how to rekindle intimacy. All of the things you say, I did. Form additional dating, including extensive travel which she loved and couldn't get enough of. I cooked, cleaned, did laundry, and other types of choreplay so she wouldn't be tired and could enjoy time to decompress from work. I was retired so I had plenty of time to do it. She noticed sometimes, sometimes not. And I once tried not initiating for 6 weeks to avoid any stress on her about how seldom we were intimate. At the end of the 6 weeks I started a conversation about my not attempting anything overtly sexual. She hadn't noticed and seemed surprised it had been that long since I initiated any foreplay. The short story is it made no difference. She had the frequency she desired which was roughly every 3 months.
Of coarse she wants you to quit reacting poorly to her refusals. My now X was the same saying sex was all I thought about and why couldn't I be like the other men in our social group who didn't pester their wives all the time about sex? It's just another way for refusers to deflect and delay the prospect of her "wifely duties" as my X put it.
I'm sorry to say it, but you seem to be headed down the same road I took a couple years ago. Heads up, it's a dead end.
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Post by csl on Feb 13, 2017 8:30:29 GMT -5
Since your July 27 2016 post (which attracted a fair few comments and suggestions) some 6 and a bit months have elapsed. And, you now say - "confrontations about my needs not being fulfilled have only made things worse". That's not terribly encouraging. Now, she seems to have maneuvered you into an avoidant spouse speciality, the one where you "take the pressure off" by not asking for sex. This will pan out as follows. . . . As you desist from asking for sex, there will be no sex. At some stage, you will point out that there has been no sex for a while. She will respond by saying - "You never ask" And, you will then ask. And she will respond by saying - "now you are putting pressure on me for sex" And there will be no sex. It is a circular tactic that just goes around and around, much used by avoidant spouses - and, it is a pretty good tactic, which seems to be successful for those avoidant spouses who use it. (Such as your missus). The aim is to avoid having sex with you altogether if possible, but at least minimally. And, it is only one of many such tactics in the avoidant spouses box of tricks. You see, if she were to level with you, and say - "Look cloudless, I don't fancy you sexually, not sure that I ever did, and I don't see me changing my attitude in the future" - that might give you cause to re-evaluate the whole situation. Particularly as you are young, no kids, and a relatively uncomplicated deal to wind up. But make no mistake, however she dresses this up, however she puts a pretty bow on it and gift wraps it, she IS saying to you - "Look cloudless, I don't fancy you sexually, not sure that I ever did, and I don't see me changing my attitude in the future". And that, puts the ball squarely back in your court for a response. Whilst you are considering how you will respond, take every precaution possible to avoid impregnating her. You don't want to complicate this situation further. PS - re "is it common for a refuse to NEVER be up for sex after having the perfect day together by their definition?" Yes. That is quite usual. Although you might get "corpse sex" once every so often. Okay, I'm going to make a suggestion here. Somebody frame this post and put it in the ILIASM Hall of Fame! This should be required reading for every first-timer who comes here. |
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Post by iceman on Feb 13, 2017 10:11:52 GMT -5
Unfortunately I don't think this sounds good. I've tried this approach and it didn't work. In essence it sounds like you are allowing her to completely control the situation. You're just biding your time in frustration until she decides that she'll at least be agreeable to sex. Are you willing to continue this pattern forever? Is there really improvement or are you just keeping your mouth shut?
You need to be able to express your needs, ideally in a civil conversation and not a confrontation. Don't broach the topic immediately after you've been refused. Nothing good will come from that. Emotions run too high in those situations. If you can't have that conversation without being shut down just talking about your needs I'm afraid I don't see much hope in the long term.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 11:27:22 GMT -5
Hi all, I posted back somewhere around July about my situation, so I won't rehash it all here. Recent confrontations about my needs not being fulfilled have only made things worse. She doesn't feel "responsible" for my desires. When I say should I find someone who will satisfy me she says it would be easier than fighting. But that isn't what I want and I don't believe I would be ok with that situation either. I've been improving on my end with her complaints about me, being more respectful and making her feel like an equal. More dinner dates and time out. By the way, is it common for a refuse to NEVER be up for sex after having the perfect day together by their definition? Going out and having fun is a sure way not to get any. Anyway, we're trying a month of me not coming on to her to "take the pressure off", we tried it before and it worked okish. Of course that means no voicing my frustration or desire. Might be better than feeling like I'm throwing a hundred darts at the board to see what sticks. Or maybe I'm just fooling myself on that one. The alternative is separating I guess, which she says shes terrified of at this point (wonder why?) So far it's been a rocky start, I was lured into the shower with some slow clothes removal which led to... nothing. Naturally I got pissed. She wants me to stop reacting poorly to her refusals, but who wouldn't?! Wow! You have been living the life I escaped from almost a year ago. No, she is not responsible for your desires, but she is responsible for helping you with them. If she doesn't want to do that, she is NOT a wife, she is just a roommate. When you said you might need to find someone else, she didn't try to dissuade you, but just made a sarcastic remark. This is not indicative of someone who loves you. So you can't express frustration or desire? Hmmm, are you able to tell her if you are hungry or thirsty? And of course she is terrified of separating, she would be losing her indentured servant. As for luring you into the shower with nudity, but refusing to follow through, that is nothing but pure abuse. What would you do if you saw your child teasing a puppy with bacon? As in the child continually makes the poor puppy jump while the child pulls it out of his reach. Wouldn't you tell the child that continually teasing the puppy is cruel and mean? Your "wife" is doing the exact same thing to you. You don't deserve it. And lastly, she has the gall to tell you to stop reacting poorly to her refusals. Sorry to say this, but your "wife" is a hateful bitch. This is like telling a child he/she cannot cry after a spanking. It hurts!! She is intentionally causing you pain, but telling you that you better not criticize her for hurting you. Sorry to be so blunt, but I hope it helps. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 12:08:25 GMT -5
It's going absolutely no where you are both obviously as miserable as hell. Your in vicious loop and each of you thinks the others actions are causing it. It sounds like you maybe are overbearing and get angry if she doesn't put out when you want and in turn she has no sex drive. If you can't talk about this rationally with each other maybe it time to try and do couples counseling as your ideas aren't working?
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Post by Apocrypha on Feb 13, 2017 18:01:14 GMT -5
She doesn't feel "responsible" for my desires. [...] I've been improving on my end with her complaints about me, being more respectful and making her feel like an equal. More dinner dates and time out. By the way, is it common for a refuse to NEVER be up for sex after having the perfect day together by their definition? Going out and having fun is a sure way not to get any. Very familiar story in these parts. Lots of experience with this. She doesn't feel responsible for your desires - that's an unusual thing to say in a marriage, if marriage is not intended to be an oath of celibacy. I doubt either of you would have said yes, if a pledge of celibacy was in your vows. So if not her, then who is responsible? And unpack the language a bit. Is "responsible" the kind of word someone uses when they want to have sex with you? You mention her complaints - about being respectful. I think this says that she has landed at contempt with you. You can fix that with good behaviour, but that only drags you back up to the level of a blank stranger. Right now, it's likely a blank stranger has a better crack than you. Aping the activities that happy couples do, with someone who you don't really enjoy on that level, will always feel like pressure. I see she is already enlisting you in redefining your winning condition as not bothering her about the sex that you aren't having. I'm sorry cloudless, I know that's a harsh toke. I know you are at the stage of thinking that it hurts you that she doesn't desire you. The next step you need to get to is to consider what it MEANS that she doesn't desire you - and how that's likely to end up. Being nice to people is great - it certainly makes for an easier post-marriage relationship. But it doesn't generally end up creating desire in an established relationship where it doesn't exist. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 19:10:33 GMT -5
I think you should take her up on finding someone else. She gave you permission. The truth is she has no respect for you now. You'll see a changed woman when other women enter the picture. You may just find out that there are much better women to be married to than a cold uncaring woman.
I'd remove my wedding ring, if I was you. Then stop giving her the desires she wants. She's getting something from you by staying. All the while, life is being slowly drained out of you. Not to mention your self esteem going down the crapper.
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Post by ihadalove on Feb 13, 2017 20:01:57 GMT -5
Thanks for all the replies everyone. I've poked around the forums a bit and it is nothing but understanding and supportive! It's encouraging to see (sort of, I hate to see anyone in this position ) that many women have the same issue with their spouses. It's often put as a "male problem".
Right now she's away from home two nights a week for internship, and I thought some time away might get us a bit of personal space and some interest when she returned. The chances of making love that night turned out to be 0%.
As for me keeping the pressure off, I figure it can't hurt since what we've been doing isn't working. And I'll be keeping track! We'll see if she really does want sex as much as she claims. Yes, she says she is interested more than I think! If she is I'm not sure what the problem is.
Also, I'm not really interested in being intentionally mean or hurtful, I don't see what that will do for me and I don't want to be like that.
In reply to the comments about not being her responsibility, yeah that phrase really rubs me the wrong way! I haven't had a good counter for it in the moment without feeling like I'm some controlling person who thinks they own their wife.
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Post by ihadalove on Feb 13, 2017 20:07:47 GMT -5
Then stop giving her the desires she wants. She's getting something from you by staying. All the while, life is being slowed drained out of you. Not to mention your self esteem going down the crapper. It's definitely tempting. I think it will result in the "well you're not getting what you want because I'm not" angle. She already claims she doesn't get everything she really wants. |
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Post by baza on Feb 13, 2017 20:49:51 GMT -5
"I'm not really interested in being intentionally mean or hurtful, I don't see what that will do for me and I don't want to be like that." - you say Brother cloudless.
There is a world of difference between speaking assertively, honestly and directly, to "being intentionally mean or hurtful".
There is not going to be any resolution to the situation until such time as such a conversation takes place.
And, that conversation needs to come from you being in a state or preparedness to put the marriage on the line.
It can't be a bluff.
This IS a crisis you see in front of you.
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Post by ihadalove on Feb 14, 2017 21:12:44 GMT -5
I was referring to the suggestion to go on dating sites and see other woman and rub it in baza, I have no objection to speaking honestly. I think our last conversation and my lack of a quick rebound (I'm usually pretty fast to act "normal") is setting in for her.
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