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Post by rejected101 on Jan 31, 2017 13:45:28 GMT -5
Has anyone else found themselves in the position whereby they have previously expected or perhaps hoped that sex would be permitted as a type of reward? Be it for hard work around the house, arranging a surprise for your spouse or being romantic in some other way. I'm not saying it is necessarily a good thing to expect but also there are occasions where I have expected my wife to at least be interested in sex with me because I've done something that I considered to be nice. Almost an I've scratched your back you scratch mine type of scenario. The reason I ask is because there was a time where wife told me (in response to why our sex life was lacking) "a little romance wouldn't go amiss". The implication being, cook me dinner, take me out, spoil me type of thing. However on another occasion the comment was "just because you have arranged something nice doesn't mean we'll have sex". They are somewhat conflicting messages.
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Post by Pinkberry on Jan 31, 2017 15:04:18 GMT -5
Well, even though I've always had a healthy sexual appetite, I was in a relationship where my bf just really couldn't talk about much else other than sex. Everything seemed to revolve around it. I liked being desired and the sex was good, but I felt like one of those cartoons where people are hungry and see other people as food items. I felt like he looked at me like a giant vagina and nothing else. Finally, I said to him that sometimes, it just didn't have to be about that. We had a lovely evening, went to bed and snuggled like we always did except there was no sex first, woke up in the morning and talked about "regular" stuff like what we'd do that day, and it was almost perfect until I made a move to get out of the bed and he pulled me back to hug me, whispering in my ear, "Wasn't I a good boy not asking for sex all night?" He was trying to pull my panties off while he said it. Though it took him a while to admit it to my face, he never really considered our relationship long term material and never respected me because I gave it up too easily. It was very frustrating.
Anyway, I tell you all of that to tell you this. Doing nice things has to be about nice things. If every time you do a nice thing, you ask for sex, it will seem like that is all you care about. I'm not saying that is what you do or that is how you got into this position, but from a purely objective standpoint of expectations, doing something nice for your spouse should not include an expectation of reciprocation. Sex and love are not quid pro quo, or shouldn't be anyway. She is asking for more romance on a regular basis, not just one night. And she is asking for you to stop asking.
I'm sorry that I'm not familiar with your back story. Have you two had The Talk™ yet? If not, it needs to happen soon. I can't say that things would improve with your sex life because her claims of not feeling enough romance may be a bullshit excuse to not have sex, as sometimes happens with refusers, but it is worth a conversation or two to explore it.
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Post by wewbwb on Jan 31, 2017 16:18:11 GMT -5
There is a saying "If you are helping someone and are expecting something - you are not doing kindness, you are doing business."
That being said, it CAN be a playful and fun way to bring a couple closer.
But, as with all things, it can be abused by both sides.
If you bring chicken soup for your sick wife and are expecting sex, that's just wrong. If you playfully say "I'll fix the mailbox, but only for a kiss" that's something different.
That's my humble opinion.
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Post by baza on Jan 31, 2017 16:24:09 GMT -5
You fuck your spouse because you want to, not because you have to.
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Post by rejected101 on Jan 31, 2017 16:24:33 GMT -5
Well, even though I've always had a healthy sexual appetite, I was in a relationship where my bf just really couldn't talk about much else other than sex. Everything seemed to revolve around it. I liked being desired and the sex was good, but I felt like one of those cartoons where people are hungry and see other people as food items. I felt like he looked at me like a giant vagina and nothing else. Finally, I said to him that sometimes, it just didn't have to be about that. We had a lovely evening, went to bed and snuggled like we always did except there was no sex first, woke up in the morning and talked about "regular" stuff like what we'd do that day, and it was almost perfect until I made a move to get out of the bed and he pulled me back to hug me, whispering in my ear, "Wasn't I a good boy not asking for sex all night?" He was trying to pull my panties off while he said it. Though it took him a while to admit it to my face, he never really considered our relationship long term material and never respected me because I gave it up too easily. It was very frustrating. Anyway, I tell you all of that to tell you this. Doing nice things has to be about nice things. If every time you do a nice thing, you ask for sex, it will seem like that is all you care about. I'm not saying that is what you do or that is how you got into this position, but from a purely objective standpoint of expectations, doing something nice for your spouse should not include an expectation of reciprocation. Sex and love are not quid pro quo, or shouldn't be anyway. She is asking for more romance on a regular basis, not just one night. And she is asking for you to stop asking. I'm sorry that I'm not familiar with your back story. Have you two had The Talk™ yet? If not, it needs to happen soon. I can't say that things would improve with your sex life because her claims of not feeling enough romance may be a bullshit excuse to not have sex, as sometimes happens with refusers, but it is worth a conversation or two to explore it. Hi thanks for your reply. Yes 'the talk' has happened before and over a period of time the direction we are now heading is more positive than before. The difficulty I certainly at least used to face is dealing with the requirement of romance from someone who didn't ever seem to want intimacy to reach the levels I did. You're absolutely right in terms of doing something nice should be about wanting to do something nice and nothing else. The issue I always used to have is (I'm adjusting my behaviour now) why would you be hopelessly romantic with someone who shuns 99% of all sexual advances you make. It became a vicious circle. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2017 16:43:53 GMT -5
Has anyone else found themselves in the position whereby they have previously expected or perhaps hoped that sex would be permitted as a type of reward? Be it for hard work around the house, arranging a surprise for your spouse or being romantic in some other way. I'm not saying it is necessarily a good thing to expect but also there are occasions where I have expected my wife to at least be interested in sex with me because I've done something that I considered to be nice. Almost an I've scratched your back you scratch mine type of scenario. The reason I ask is because there was a time where wife told me (in response to why our sex life was lacking) "a little romance wouldn't go amiss". The implication being, cook me dinner, take me out, spoil me type of thing. However on another occasion the comment was "just because you have arranged something nice doesn't mean we'll have sex". They are somewhat conflicting messages. Yes, I did this for many many years. In the book, "No More Mr. Nice Guy," it is referred to as a "covert contract." You are doing something in the hope that eventually the other person will reciprocate. Unfortunately, this rarely works out. Please realize, I am not criticizing you, just pointing out that I did the same thing for a long time. I did this because direct discussion never worked. Unfortunately, there are some people who have an entitlement mindset. They just think that everyone owes them something. |
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Post by rejected101 on Feb 1, 2017 1:40:42 GMT -5
Has anyone else found themselves in the position whereby they have previously expected or perhaps hoped that sex would be permitted as a type of reward? Be it for hard work around the house, arranging a surprise for your spouse or being romantic in some other way. I'm not saying it is necessarily a good thing to expect but also there are occasions where I have expected my wife to at least be interested in sex with me because I've done something that I considered to be nice. Almost an I've scratched your back you scratch mine type of scenario. The reason I ask is because there was a time where wife told me (in response to why our sex life was lacking) "a little romance wouldn't go amiss". The implication being, cook me dinner, take me out, spoil me type of thing. However on another occasion the comment was "just because you have arranged something nice doesn't mean we'll have sex". They are somewhat conflicting messages. Yes, I did this for many many years. In the book, "No More Mr. Nice Guy," it is referred to as a "covert contract." You are doing something in the hope that eventually the other person will reciprocate. Unfortunately, this rarely works out. Please realize, I am not criticizing you, just pointing out that I did the same thing for a long time. I did this because direct discussion never worked. Unfortunately, there are some people who have an entitlement mindset. They just think that everyone owes them something. No criticism taken although I would have accepted it. Have I done things in the past for my hoping it would lead to sex? Guilty as charged! Have many other people done this? Most likely. Is it wrong to? Yes but when you desperately want to engage your spouse in that way you turn to silly ideas. |
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Post by rejected101 on Feb 1, 2017 2:59:18 GMT -5
You fuck your spouse because you want to, not because you have to. Agreed. The issue that makes it go from a cracked windscreen to a smashed windscreen though is when someone stops wanting to fuck and also stops wanting to make any change. |
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Post by kiltedpadre on Feb 1, 2017 4:15:07 GMT -5
I never truly believed this, but I'd be lying if I said there hadn't been times where I had wished it were true.
I remember when our problems first got to the point that I started doing reading and generally researching it was a claim that came up quite a bit. Claims that the secret elixir for marital bliss was doing things to be romantic or help relieve stress for your partner. I actually read a book entitled something along the lines of "how to get your wife to have sex more often" which had more than one chapter on the subject. Let's just say it didn't take long to both discover these concepts weren't applicable to my situation, and that there was a good reason that book was only $1 on Amazon.
Help more around the house they claim. Prepare a nice meal was another common statement. Well, I've always done around 90% of the cooking (and done it pretty well I might add). I already do all the laundry, and my share of the remaining housework. Toss in being a mechanic and general fixer, and I'd say I've met those claims.
I find myself curious if the claim works in any marriage; it certainly doesn't work for the situation that brings folks here.
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Post by rejected101 on Feb 1, 2017 7:27:35 GMT -5
I never truly believed this, but I'd be lying if I said there hadn't been times where I had wished it were true. I remember when our problems first got to the point that I started doing reading and generally researching it was a claim that came up quite a bit. Claims that the secret elixir for marital bliss was doing things to be romantic or help relieve stress for your partner. I actually read a book entitled something along the lines of "how to get your wife to have sex more often" which had more than one chapter on the subject. Let's just say it didn't take long to both discover these concepts weren't applicable to my situation, and that there was a good reason that book was only $1 on Amazon. Help more around the house they claim. Prepare a nice meal was another common statement. Well, I've always done around 90% of the cooking (and done it pretty well I might add). I already do all the laundry, and my share of the remaining housework. Toss in being a mechanic and general fixer, and I'd say I've met those claims. I find myself curious if the claim works in any marriage; it certainly doesn't work for the situation that brings folks here. Identical to me! In the search for an answer, I became a romantic slave. It didn't change much at all (except that the house looked fucking spotless). |
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Post by Dan on Feb 1, 2017 8:56:07 GMT -5
I think this is a VERY tricky line to draw. I think "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" IS basically an OK dynamic in a relationship. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with "if you cut the grass, I'll make a nice dinner". Or "because you got all that junk out of the attic and to the dump, I'll give you a backrub." This works outside the marriage, too: maybe I use my snowblower to help the neighbor lady out, she reciprocates the favor with homemade cake or soup. And it is not fundamentally "bad" or "wrong" if she even calls me and asks "hey, I'll make that soup for you if you can clear my driveway later".
The key element -- IMO -- is not "is this transactional"... but "is there TRUST": TRUST that there is respect for the friend/friendship/relationship. I think part of this is "sometimes you do the nice thing with NO prearranged quid pro quo." You have to have the TRUST that the gesture is still appreciated, and in the long run karma will work, and good stuff will come back to you (in the relationship, and in life).
In other words: the occasional (hopefully flirty/playful) "if you do _____, we'll have sex night" is not fundamentally bad, IMO. But if the doubt creeps in "she doesn't really LIKE this... she is just 'using me' to get chores done", THAT is when the model has turned sour. If that sets in as your predominate view of your spouse's view about having sex with you... that's trouble.
Although NOT due to "too much bargaining", I've arrived at this condition: a total lack of TRUST that my wife actually likes sex and finds it important for a marriage. At this point, if she offered to fill my wildest [sexual] dreams, I don't think I'd take her up on it. I've utterly lost the trust that she actually wants that as part of our relationship.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2017 12:21:12 GMT -5
Yes, I did this for many many years. In the book, "No More Mr. Nice Guy," it is referred to as a "covert contract." You are doing something in the hope that eventually the other person will reciprocate. Unfortunately, this rarely works out. Please realize, I am not criticizing you, just pointing out that I did the same thing for a long time. I did this because direct discussion never worked. Unfortunately, there are some people who have an entitlement mindset. They just think that everyone owes them something. No criticism taken although I would have accepted it. Have I done things in the past for my hoping it would lead to sex? Guilty as charged! Have many other people done this? Most likely. Is it wrong to? Yes but when you desperately want to engage your spouse in that way you turn to silly ideas. You are exactly right. But I think it is more out of desperation than silliness. You know you want to be intimately connected with another person, and the urge is so strong that you do things that are not in your best interest in hopes to get the connection you crave. Very sad. |
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Post by pfviento on Feb 1, 2017 21:50:58 GMT -5
I did a few times take on the majority of the household chores and watching our daughter and let her sleep 12 hours a day. It had zero appreciable results.
The last straw for me was when she slept over 16 hours and I was exhausted. I think the fatigue I was feeling coupled with everything else finally set me off.
I got offered a reset after I lost my temper.
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Post by mrslowmaintenance on Feb 4, 2017 0:24:02 GMT -5
I am also guilty of trying this.
(I'm a female but still...)
Had the house detailed, child asleep... Nice new outfit, candles.. favorite dinner prior to etc etc.. all I got that night was him explaining all the things he hates about lingerie. my bad I guess hahaha
I have been trying to talk more openly about thing he really is interested in. This is actually more uncomfortable for me, but also an interesting challenge for him. I have a hard time talking about things like this because not only do I not want to feel like I am doing Something wrong, but I don't like making him feel inadequate as well. Tough spot.
Summary: I have tried as well (whoops), am now attempting to start conversation about actually bedroom interests
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Post by baza on Feb 4, 2017 1:01:20 GMT -5
Trial and error.
Try the "scented candles" approach.
Closely observe the results.
Try the "counter refusing" approach.
Closely observe the results.
Try the "joint counselling" technique.
Closely observe the results.
Try the "taking on duties normally done by your spouse" experiment.
Closely observe the results.
Try the "date night" scenario, the "really talking" approach, the "losing weight (or gaining it)" method.
Closely observe the results.
Try whatever you like.
And closely observe the results.
If you are in a jaded marriage, one of the above will bring you a successful result (so keep repeating it)
If you are in an ILIASM shithole, none of these things will work - in any sustainable way.
If that is the case, then it is incumbent on you to really observe your results, and start making your next choices on the basis of your trial and error experiment.
There is no point in continuing the experiment out any further.
You have your result.
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