flowerdust
Junior Member
Posts: 61
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by flowerdust on Jan 26, 2017 13:30:25 GMT -5
It is sad to know but comforting to know that what I am feeling is normal and I am not losing it. I am unsure why someone that is supposed to love you for all that you are would treat someone this way. It is not like the refuser is unaware what will happen, or is it they just do not care, or they do it because they want out and have no justifiable reason to (coward) so when it does end (oh poor me my wife/husband cheated on me) But they are not going to tell anyone that they were not putting out.
I just don't understand
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Post by worksforme2 on Jan 26, 2017 14:14:08 GMT -5
It is sad to know but comforting to know that what I am feeling is normal and I am not losing it. I am unsure why someone that is supposed to love you for all that you are would treat someone this way. It is not like the refuser is unaware what will happen, or is it they just do not care, or they do it because they want out and have no justifiable reason to (coward) so when it does end (oh poor me my wife/husband cheated on me) But they are not going to tell anyone that they were not putting out. I just don't understand If you have been here a bit you will have seen the term "why chasing". That's what you are doing now. Trying to figure out or understand "why" your SO is acting as they are. There are too many reasons or rationales to try and address, and with a few exceptions, even if you knew the reasons it's unlikely it would be of help.
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Post by beachguy on Jan 26, 2017 14:19:00 GMT -5
As far as I'm concerned, there is an EXPLICIT expectation of sex in a marriage, in exchange for conforming to our culture's demand for monogamy. It is a contract, and these two items are tightly integrated. In the case of an SM, cheating is not cheating, it is a result of a fundamental breach of contract. When the expectation of sex is unilaterally declared null and void, the other party has every right and every reason to nullify the monogamy side of that contract.
You execute a contract with another party, where in exchange for services, you agree to pay a sum. The other party fails to deliver. But when confronted with their breach, they declare "but you must continue paying!". That is ludicrous. It doesn't fly in any other aspect of our lives.
Now, you may argue that our culture does not see things my way. But if you are in an SM, that might give you pause for ever entering into a contract that would not be enforced that way in any other context. Which is why I think marriage is a foolish venture.
I went 30 years without stepping out. I was a fool. I damaged myself physically and emotionally in a blatant breach of contract.
There are no ethics and no morality in mindlessly conforming to one side of a breached contract. How many years would you pay your monthly cable bill with a blank screen every day?
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Post by beachguy on Jan 26, 2017 14:28:48 GMT -5
It is sad to know but comforting to know that what I am feeling is normal and I am not losing it. I am unsure why someone that is supposed to love you for all that you are would treat someone this way. It is not like the refuser is unaware what will happen, or is it they just do not care, or they do it because they want out and have no justifiable reason to (coward) so when it does end (oh poor me my wife/husband cheated on me) But they are not going to tell anyone that they were not putting out. I just don't understand If you do outsource, and you get caught, and your husband tells you he will tell the world you "cheated", then tell him that if he does so, you will tell the world he was never man enough to fuck you for xx years. It's your job to tell the world why you stepped out of the marriage. Or to negotiate a strict "don't tell" policy. See if your husband wants to be known as a eunuch among all his bar buddies.
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flowerdust
Junior Member
Posts: 61
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by flowerdust on Jan 26, 2017 14:44:48 GMT -5
It is sad to know but comforting to know that what I am feeling is normal and I am not losing it. I am unsure why someone that is supposed to love you for all that you are would treat someone this way. It is not like the refuser is unaware what will happen, or is it they just do not care, or they do it because they want out and have no justifiable reason to (coward) so when it does end (oh poor me my wife/husband cheated on me) But they are not going to tell anyone that they were not putting out. I just don't understand If you do outsource, and you get caught, and your husband tells you he will tell the world you "cheated", then tell him that if he does so, you will tell the world he was never man enough to fuck you for xx years. It's your job to tell the world why you stepped out of the marriage. Or to negotiate a strict "don't tell" policy. See if your husband wants to be known as a eunuch among all his bar buddies. Love it
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 26, 2017 17:51:27 GMT -5
When your spouse refuses to have sex. You have done all you possibly could to fix it. The shrink is off the table . Is Stepping out on a SM really cheating If you live in a SM would that not be considered Roommates 1) Do you tell your partner before you cheat 2) Get a divorce before you cheat 3) Or just go without sex 4) none of the above (WHY) It's the wrong question to resolve your conflict, but I'll get to that. Yes, it will be seen as cheating by your celibate partner. You might have both entered the relationship with the idea that marriage includes an enthusiastic sexual union, but since that time, you have implicitly agreed via your choices to "identify" as married in a celibate relationship, and that you accept those terms without consequence to that status beyond a stern disagreement. As such, you have both demonstrated through your actions that you are partners in the terms of the celibate marriage. If you tell your partner before you take a lover, this will be an open relationship if your partner agrees to it. Your partner has the same choice in choosing to embrace, tolerate, or leave the open relationship that you have in choosing to embrace, tolerate, or leave the celibate relationship. If this is posed as a question to your partner, the partner will always choose to not have an open relationship - and you will either have a celibate relationship (following whatever distraction or delay your partner tries), or your partner will end the relationship. It's also likely that your celibate partner will choose to cheat and explore a sexual relationship with another person, without telling you. If you get a divorce or separate before you take a lover, then you are a single person. This may still hurt your former partner as much as cheating, but you will have clearly communicated your intention in an authentic way. If you divorce or separate, just as with an open relationship, you can negotiate the terms of your separation to have more or less contact, and the form of that contact. Mrs Apocrypha and I are parents and live in one of the most expensive cities in the world, so we negotiated much more contact and cooperation than most divorces I see in other places. The question when weighing either an open relationship or a separation is "what does marriage bring to the table?" What does it mean to you to be married, as opposed to an ex-spouse or co-parent? You can lighten the stress, even without sex, by living a life that is more authentic than the lie you are living right now. We see examples of this all the time, when people choose to sleep apart, or take off the wedding ring, or take separate vacations, or go out and make independent plans without inviting a spouse. The process of decoupling oddly decreases YOUR stress even if the sex isn't present because you are "coming out" in a more authentic way. In my final year of marriage, I likely wept every single day. And while separating hasn't been easy, like amputating a limb - it's absolutely decreased the intensity of that pain.
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Post by richfairy72 on Jan 26, 2017 18:25:24 GMT -5
Wow !!! I did not know I was going to get this many respondences. Thank you everyone for your advice as well as experiences. My favourite would be BBGirl, But reading through all of the post the consensus would be to cheat on a SM is still cheating, it is justifiable yes. I have not cheated on my spouse, Do I want to (NO) Have I thought about it (Awbsafrickenlutey) Do I want to hurt him (NO) Has he hurt me (YES) I miss the intimacy Long and short I know that I will cheat at one point, I have been on sites like AM putting myself out their, think to just find out if I was still disable to other men I needed that ego boost I guess . But I would never cheat with the guys on there, My reasons for cheating are different from (I am just board). I have found out a couple of things about myself along that road. Someone asked me what turns me on ? I used to know that, I thought about it for days (Sad to say I don't remember) How do you forget something like that ? I also realized that I cannot think of my spouse when I am alone (My body gets started then shuts down) Just like whats happens to him the maybe three time a year that we do have sex (only because I have to have the talk with him why I need sex) Just makes me more frustrated in the end mostly because I feel that it is pity or obligation sex. where as before he would see it through now that is not the case. What I do know is that this whole thing is playing havoc on me, just not mentally but physically as well. Why I still love this man I have no clue. Has he broken our contract of our vows yes he has Bottom Line is Yes I am confused, I would love for him to snap out of it ! Throw me down on the bed rip all my cloths off and well I don't need to finish that sentence you know how that ends lol. I know it is not going to happen, as much as I would like it to. I am not trying to justify why I should cheat, like I said I do not want to, but I do have a human need. I can so relate to this. It is confusing. However, I think this forum has helped me to give up chasing an impossible dream. I feel mentally calmer, but still have a way to go before I work out my next step xx
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Post by Chatter Fox on Jan 26, 2017 18:31:16 GMT -5
When your spouse refuses to have sex. You have done all you possibly could to fix it. The shrink is off the table . Is Stepping out on a SM really cheating If you live in a SM would that not be considered Roommates 1) Do you tell your partner before you cheat 2) Get a divorce before you cheat 3) Or just go without sex 4) none of the above (WHY)
Looking for any and all thoughts on these questions
I'm personally not a fan of the "outsourcing" route. Not so much because I think its wrong but for other reasons. I think someone living in a SM for a long time is justified in going outside the marriage. BUT, not everyone sees it that way. Those of us living the situation "get it". Those that haven't been in a state of forced celibacy may or may not "get it". Thing is, affairs happen and they happen more often than we probably all realize but regardless of reason, some people have major problems with those that stray. You get marked, so to speak. You get that scarlet letter. Lots of people take that very seriously and see that as a major red flag. There's that whole "once a cheater" mentality out there. That's something I want to avoid. Truth us, I WANT to outsource, i feel justified in doing so, and i have no judgment towards those that choose that option... but I personally don't want to shoot myself in the foot for any future romantic partners. If I find myself close to outsourcing, I will divorce. That's my personal decision on the matter. Also, if you outsource and get caught, it gives your spouse a lot of ammo. If you have a clean record, I personally think it's best to keep it that way. That way, when you leave, they can't pull out the "affair card" to try to paint it out as your fault the marriage ended. Additionally, an affair that is discovered basically gives them a "get out of sex free" card to play. The last thing I want to do is give my wife more reasons. For me, I plan to be as perfect as possible. If no sex is the result, then so be it, but I will leave. She knows it and I do too.
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Post by baza on Jan 26, 2017 23:32:30 GMT -5
Well Sister flowerdust, if you are hell bent on pursuing this option consciously or . . . cough cough . . "accidently", it would be smart to see a lawyer in your jurisdiction asap, to establish how a divorce would shake out for you. Additionally, it would be smart to put together an exit strategy and knock it in to do-able shape. Shoring up your support network too would be highly advisable.
This option, of introducing a 3rd party into an already dysfunctional situation is inevitably a game changer, and spins things off at some really weird and unpredictable tangents - many of which result in the collapse of the primary relationship.
To some extent, you can mitigate the potential damage this option is likely to cause. At the very least, you can get prepared now, in advance, for a scenario where you cheat, get caught, and find your spouse responds in less that sympathetic fashion. You can prevent yourself from getting blindsided.
Or, with those self same measures suggested above, you might consider acting pro-actively yourself to bring the situation to resolution.
The choice to cheat is a perfectly valid one. Just as valid as staying, just as valid as leaving. But this choice, like all choices, comes with consequences. The gist of this comment is to point out the necessity to manage the potential negative consequences of this choice (of which there are many)
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Post by LITW on Jan 27, 2017 11:32:02 GMT -5
I had another thought last night .... if you will forgive the sports analogy.
There are certain moves you can make while playing a sport that are illegal during a game, requiring some sort of penalty: such as being offsides in football, traveling in basketball, and a pitcher balking in baseball. However, when training for any of those sports, or playing a pickup game, there are no penalties associated with those moves.
If you suit up and show up for "the game" (meaning jumping though all sorts of hoops to get your spouse to be interested in you sexually) and they won't play with you, perhaps finding another teammate to play with, while technically illegal, is not in the given circumstances. (or not a punishable offense)
Saying "I am the only person you can be intimate with," and then refusing to be intimate with you is cruel. At least in my world.
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 27, 2017 12:10:19 GMT -5
I had another thought last night .... if you will forgive the sports analogy. There are certain moves you can make while playing a sport that are illegal during a game, requiring some sort of penalty: such as being offsides in football, traveling in basketball, and a pitcher balking in baseball. However, when training for any of those sports, or playing a pickup game, there are no penalties associated with those moves. If you suit up and show up for "the game" (meaning jumping though all sorts of hoops to get your spouse to be interested in you sexually) and they won't play with you, perhaps finding another teammate to play with, while technically illegal, is not in the given circumstances. (or not a punishable offense) Saying "I am the only person you can be intimate with," and then refusing to be intimate with you is cruel. At least in my world. I enjoy a good analogy with sports and this happened to my son a few years ago when he first got into travel baseball. The head coaches were not giving him a fair amount of time at his position, he's a lefty so first base and pitcher are his best positions. After 6 weeks of putting up with the nonsense we left the team and found a better travel ball program. So four months later my son is facing that team and he's the starting pitcher. My son threw his first no hitter. Poetic justice. He got more playing time, reps and has improved as a player. So yes if the team won't play you then find another team to play with.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 27, 2017 13:25:50 GMT -5
"Cheating"
Let's widen the perspective a bit to identify the common elements of stress.
A closeted gay person "comes out" to align his presentation with his intention, dropping the energy maintained in the lie.
A person in a sexless or otherwise dysfunctional marriage "comes out" to align his intention with the lived reality. He changes the format of the relationship to something that is more authentic - an ex-spouse, co-parent, co-partner in asset management, friend, enemy.
A single person who is in a relationship with a person who is cheating (who is in a sexless marriage, going on 2 years), also feels tension in maintaining the discretion and not presenting to be "seen" as a couple - to relax into and to inhabit the role comfortably. One is always aware of the limits.
Even the decision to sleep in separate beds is also a relief - choosing to abandon the expectation or hope that tonight is the night and any reminder of what isn't happening. It's choosing truth, or closer to truth and even though no sex is being had, it's a better sleep.
I can say that even having lots of sex from a paramour in an open relationship, while still not having sex in the "primary" married relationship, also feels like a lie and doesn't fix the tension.
Layering inauthenticity on top of inauthenticity adds complexity but does not fix the central problem. I'm not talking about inauthenticity as a moral ethical concept, beholden to someone else's judgment. I'm talking about what it feels like to feel aligned in presentation and intention.
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 27, 2017 13:46:50 GMT -5
"Cheating" Let's widen the perspective a bit to identify the common elements of stress. A closeted gay person "comes out" to align his presentation with his intention, dropping the energy maintained in the lie. A person in a sexless or otherwise dysfunctional marriage "comes out" to align his intention with the lived reality. He changes the format of the relationship to something that is more authentic - an ex-spouse, co-parent, co-partner in asset management, friend, enemy. A single person who is in a relationship with a person who is cheating (who is in a sexless marriage, going on 2 years), also feels tension in maintaining the discretion and not presenting to be "seen" as a couple - to relax into and to inhabit the role comfortably. One is always aware of the limits. Even the decision to sleep in separate beds is also a relief - choosing to abandon the expectation or hope that tonight is the night and any reminder of what isn't happening. It's choosing truth, or closer to truth and even though no sex is being had, it's a better sleep. I can say that even having lots of sex from a paramour in an open relationship, while still not having sex in the "primary" married relationship, also feels like a lie and doesn't fix the tension. Layering inauthenticity on top of inauthenticity adds complexity but does not fix the central problem. I'm not talking about inauthenticity as a moral ethical concept, beholden to someone else's judgment. I'm talking about what it feels like to feel aligned in presentation and intention. In regards to the sex with a married person in an open relationship: That's my situation. I'm single. I'm dating/ meeting men, most of the time it's one meeting and done. However I have my FWB in my life. It fills a void, it makes us both feel wanted and desired, the sex is incredible because we are very compatible. If it wasn't for him then perhaps I would be sexless but honestly I don't believe that. Last year he and I had sex 3 times a month. I don't have my kids 12 days of the month and we each have our own private lives so I was extremely satisfied seeing him 3 times a month. It serves a purpose, it fills a void, and we enjoy each other very much which is really what it's about. When I'm with him I'm very happy and the happiness lasts for a few days. There's a high/ happiness I get out of it so I'm in favor of doing whatever makes one happy.
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