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Post by beachguy on Jan 5, 2017 11:00:53 GMT -5
I wrote a similar letter. I gave her the option of an open marriage or divorce. She initially took the Open option. Then repudiated that, claiming she was coerced. So I don't recommend that strategy.
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Post by shamwow on Jan 5, 2017 11:12:24 GMT -5
I wrote a similar letter. I gave her the option of an open marriage or divorce. She initially took the Open option. Then repudiated that, claiming she was coerced. So I don't recommend that strategy. Yeah, knowing her as I do for a couple decades now, I am not even considering an open marriage or even cheating. Why should I have to sneak around so she can maintain public appearances. Sadly, I think my only option is to ride the D train. If we do counseling it will be how to manage the after effects. |
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Post by callisto on Jan 5, 2017 11:30:49 GMT -5
Good Luck Shamwow,
I hope your letter meets out some positive effect..
No matter how sincere, loving and reasonable it is amazing how refuser spouses can still avoid having to act in any way or answer consequentially.
I know this from experience.
Then you just have to screw up your nerve again to try again.
Resolve is what's needed but can be difficult to stick to with emotion and practicalities of life flying around and about.
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Post by DryCreek on Jan 5, 2017 12:20:47 GMT -5
shamwow, upon further reflection, some thoughts... Writing the letter has no doubt been therapeutic. After you've gotten it out of your system, evaluate your intent behind delivering it. You might find that it is better unpublished. If you had hopes of evoking a change in her behavior, and there's merit in trying, then the letter does an excellent job of expressing your position. If she has an open heart, she might be motivated to change. If, however, you are set in your path, then the letter serves only to justify your actions and place blame. Every point you raise invites counter-arguments, and individual points can ultimately be whittled away enough to prove "see, he left for no reason". In this case, I doubt that any "self improvement" will result from your words, only hurt and bitterness, which might drag out the process. The body of your letter will detract from clarity of the bottom-line; the bottom-line will overwhelm everything else you have to say. So... you might be better served by keeping the letter for yourself and focusing on delivering the punch line. (FWIW, I'm also not keen on the idea of distributing the letter. Though refusers need to be held more accountable for their behavior, there is a delicate line to defending your reputation without it backfiring. Ultmately, the details matter only to you two; the rest of the world need only accept the results.)
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Post by shamwow on Jan 5, 2017 12:50:15 GMT -5
shamwow , upon further reflection, some thoughts... Writing the letter has no doubt been therapeutic. After you've gotten it out of your system, evaluate your intent behind delivering it. You might find that it is better unpublished. If you had hopes of evoking a change in her behavior, and there's merit in trying, then the letter does an excellent job of expressing your position. If she has an open heart, she might be motivated to change. If, however, you are set in your path, then the letter serves only to justify your actions and place blame. Every point you raise invites counter-arguments, and individual points can ultimately be whittled away enough to prove "see, he left for no reason". In this case, I doubt that any "self improvement" will result from your words, only hurt and bitterness, which might drag out the process. The body of your letter will detract from clarity of the bottom-line; the bottom-line will overwhelm everything else you have to say. So... you might be better served by keeping the letter for yourself and focusing on delivering the punch line. (FWIW, I'm also not keen on the idea of distributing the letter. Though refusers need to be held more accountable for their behavior, there is a delicate line to defending your reputation without it backfiring. Ultmately, the details matter only to you two; the rest of the world need only accept the results.) DC, Point taken and I shall reflect upon it. I have thought along those lines as well, but not providing reasoning behind it would be an absolute "see, he left me for no reason" without the opportunity to defend myself. Also, if I just "deliver the punch line" she can plausibly say that I dropped it out of nowhere. Perhaps even implying I'm having an affair (I've never been unfaithful, BTW). If she wants to peel away my points, then I'll let her do so. I'm tired of being the punching bag by default. I honestly do not have any hopes in changing the behavior. Frankly, that's because I don't have any desire to do so. Changing the behavior would be the SM portion of the marriage. That part is somewhat action-based, and her behavior could possibly be modified. What I've come to realize is that she doesn't love me, and I no longer love her. That isn't behavior-based, but feeling based. A change in that regard cannot be forced on either of us, and I've come to understand that as bad as the SM portion is, the loveless portion is worse. I'm 44 now, and don't have another 13 years to waste, hoping that any behavioral and emotional changes will "stick". It is rare that they do. At that point, the window to "start over" will be rapidly closing and the odds are we will be two people stuck with each other even as they despise each other. That is not the situation I want to spend in my later years. I missed the first window before we had kids. I won't miss the second one. But again, I will reflect upon your words. None of these decisions should be taken lightly. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 13:38:52 GMT -5
(FWIW, I'm also not keen on the idea of distributing the letter. Though refusers need to be held more accountable for their behavior, there is a delicate line to defending your reputation without it backfiring. Ultmately, the details matter only to you two; the rest of the world need only accept the results.) I'm with DryCreek about not sharing the letter. For three reasons: 1) The marital relationship, no matter how broken, is sacred. There were things shared in confidence that should stay in confidence. After all, she is the mother of your children. You love her for that reason alone, no doubt. Honor the years you had together (and it sounds like some were good) by keeping the gory details of what passed between you private. Do this for your wife but also for any future relationship you might have. Your next wife will want to know that you are a man who can keep confidences and honor the privacy and sanctity of what passes between man and wife. I'm not saying you shouldn't share any details, but certain details are only for you and wife, IMHO, particularly her gyne history! Keep that one to yourself please, for all things sacred. 2) I also think that most of what you say in the letter is not at all suitable for your children. You and your wife get to decide the fate of your marriage. It's between the two of you. Your kids only need to come to terms with the results, as DryCreek said. Even once they are older, all they need to understand is that although the 2 of you no longer love one another, you will both always love them and, more importantly, are both worthy of their love. Any blame you lay on your wife before your children only serves to tarnish her in their eyes. Unless the wrongs are egregious - physical abuse, drugs, severe mental illness, etc., it doesn't serve our children to think one parent is entirely to blame. and 3) Writing the letter to any audience but your wife might change the tone and even alter some of its contents. Again, this relationship is between the two of you. What do you feel about the marriage? About your wife? Say that without any regard for who might read it in the future and what you might want them to think. It's no one else's business what happened between the two of you. FWIW, I know all of us here have our share of sadness, hurt, anger, even bitterness over our marriages. I know I do. But I only lay it bare here and with a few close friends and in therapy. As for what I say to the rest of the world, I've been working on that speech for years. My children and my H's family need to uphold him as a good person. And he IS a good person. Most of our neighbors, friends, and other family will want to see us both in a good light. So, here's my speech (and I'll deliver it without a modicum of sarcasm - because I genuinely feel this way): "Bob (not his real name) is a great guy. He's been a wonderful provider and an awesome dad. Unfortunately, we just couldn't make it work between us. We weren't making each other happy and we weren't setting a good example of what marriage is for our kids. We'll always be friends though." That, IMHO, is all anyone needs to know. None of their damn business why you split up. |
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Post by shamwow on Jan 5, 2017 14:25:50 GMT -5
(FWIW, I'm also not keen on the idea of distributing the letter. Though refusers need to be held more accountable for their behavior, there is a delicate line to defending your reputation without it backfiring. Ultmately, the details matter only to you two; the rest of the world need only accept the results.) I'm with DryCreek about not sharing the letter. For three reasons: 1) The marital relationship, no matter how broken, is sacred. There were things shared in confidence that should stay in confidence. After all, she is the mother of your children. You love her for that reason alone, no doubt. Honor the years you had together (and it sounds like some were good) by keeping the gory details of what passed between you private. Do this for your wife but also for any future relationship you might have. Your next wife will want to know that you are a man who can keep confidences and honor the privacy and sanctity of what passes between man and wife. I'm not saying you shouldn't share any details, but certain details are only for you and wife, IMHO, particularly her gyne history! Keep that one to yourself please, for all things sacred. 2) I also think that most of what you say in the letter is not at all suitable for your children. You and your wife get to decide the fate of your marriage. It's between the two of you. Your kids only need to come to terms with the results, as DryCreek said. Even once they are older, all they need to understand is that although the 2 of you no longer love one another, you will both always love them and, more importantly, are both worthy of their love. Any blame you lay on your wife before your children only serves to tarnish her in their eyes. Unless the wrongs are egregious - physical abuse, drugs, severe mental illness, etc., it doesn't serve our children to think one parent is entirely to blame. and 3) Writing the letter to any audience but your wife might change the tone and even alter some of its contents. Again, this relationship is between the two of you. What do you feel about the marriage? About your wife? Say that without any regard for who might read it in the future and what you might want them to think. It's no one else's business what happened between the two of you. FWIW, I know all of us here have our share of sadness, hurt, anger, even bitterness over our marriages. I know I do. But I only lay it bare here and with a few close friends and in therapy. As for what I say to the rest of the world, I've been working on that speech for years. My children and my H's family need to uphold him as a good person. And he IS a good person. Most of our neighbors, friends, and other family will want to see us both in a good light. So, here's my speech (and I'll deliver it without a modicum of sarcasm - because I genuinely feel this way): "Bob (not his real name) is a great guy. He's been a wonderful provider and an awesome dad. Unfortunately, we just couldn't make it work between us. We weren't making each other happy and we weren't setting a good example of what marriage is for our kids. We'll always be friends though." That, IMHO, is all anyone needs to know. None of their damn business why you split up. Those are all damn good points. Part of the reason I posted my first draft of the letter is to solicit exactly this kind of feedback. Just to make sure I understand what you're saying, though. Your suggestion is that I do present the letter to my wife (I get tongue tied easily and really want to make sure I cover all my points), but it is for her eyes only. If anyone else asks, politely use a paraphrased version of your explanation. Essentially, keep some dignity here (for both of us). Does that sum it up? It also helps that every word of that is the truth. If so, I see what you are getting at. Like you said, my emotions are all over the place here, and having detached advice from others wrestling with the same issues is truly priceless. The decision to leave is mine, but there are many ways it can be done, and each approach will have profound ramifications upon the relationship I have with the mother of my children for the rest of my life. The part I struggle with is "we couldn't work it out" seems to work fine with friends and even distant family. For my children, her parents, and my parents, it seems terribly weak and dismissing. This is especially true since I've already discussed with my father (I really needed to talk with someone at the time). The person I especially want to share more with is my mom. Perhaps I can do so in broad brush strokes without the details. |
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Post by novembercomingfire on Jan 5, 2017 14:27:01 GMT -5
shamwow , upon further reflection, some thoughts... Writing the letter has no doubt been therapeutic. After you've gotten it out of your system, evaluate your intent behind delivering it. You might find that it is better unpublished. If you had hopes of evoking a change in her behavior, and there's merit in trying, then the letter does an excellent job of expressing your position. If she has an open heart, she might be motivated to change. If, however, you are set in your path, then the letter serves only to justify your actions and place blame. Every point you raise invites counter-arguments, and individual points can ultimately be whittled away enough to prove "see, he left for no reason". In this case, I doubt that any "self improvement" will result from your words, only hurt and bitterness, which might drag out the process. The body of your letter will detract from clarity of the bottom-line; the bottom-line will overwhelm everything else you have to say. So... you might be better served by keeping the letter for yourself and focusing on delivering the punch line. (FWIW, I'm also not keen on the idea of distributing the letter. Though refusers need to be held more accountable for their behavior, there is a delicate line to defending your reputation without it backfiring. Ultmately, the details matter only to you two; the rest of the world need only accept the results.) DC, Point taken and I shall reflect upon it. I have thought along those lines as well, but not providing reasoning behind it would be an absolute "see, he left me for no reason" without the opportunity to defend myself. Also, if I just "deliver the punch line" she can plausibly say that I dropped it out of nowhere. Perhaps even implying I'm having an affair (I've never been unfaithful, BTW). If she wants to peel away my points, then I'll let her do so. I'm tired of being the punching bag by default. I honestly do not have any hopes in changing the behavior. Frankly, that's because I don't have any desire to do so. Changing the behavior would be the SM portion of the marriage. That part is somewhat action-based, and her behavior could possibly be modified. What I've come to realize is that she doesn't love me, and I no longer love her. That isn't behavior-based, but feeling based. A change in that regard cannot be forced on either of us, and I've come to understand that as bad as the SM portion is, the loveless portion is worse. I'm 44 now, and don't have another 13 years to waste, hoping that any behavioral and emotional changes will "stick". It is rare that they do. At that point, the window to "start over" will be rapidly closing and the odds are we will be two people stuck with each other even as they despise each other. That is not the situation I want to spend in my later years. I missed the first window before we had kids. I won't miss the second one. But again, I will reflect upon your words. None of these decisions should be taken lightly. I totally see your point about taking the opportunity to defend yourself, but if I were leaving, i know I would never be free until i knew that i never had to defend myself and my actions to her or toward her ever again. |
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Post by shamwow on Jan 5, 2017 14:35:22 GMT -5
Yeah after being kicked in the balls for a decade, it is hard not to defend when you know another round of abuse will most likely be coming in.
From some of the comments so far, it seems that taking the long view is the smart view here. In the end, the final result is the most important thing. And the final result I would most like is for the marriage to end, a good relationship with my kids, and my wife and I remaining on amicable (if not friendly) terms.
Keeping this conversation between the two of us probably gives me the best likelihood of achieving that outcome. But the conversation still needs to take place.
In some ways, this feels just like negotiating a business deal where I have conditioned myself not to take anything personally and everything is up for discussion. It differs, however, in that I've never had custody of my children as part of a business deal. It just creates an emotional cloud over everything.
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Post by csl on Jan 5, 2017 14:59:01 GMT -5
I understand all the points that have been made against giving a wife this letter, but I am trying to understand why the scenario is improved by replacing the letter with divorce papers and saying "Call my lawyer."
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Post by shamwow on Jan 5, 2017 15:11:13 GMT -5
I understand all the points that have been made against giving a wife this letter, but I am trying to understand why the scenario is improved by replacing the letter with divorce papers and saying "Call my lawyer." That would be the other end of the spectrum I guess. Mainly a matter of personality, style, desired outcome, etc... |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 5, 2017 15:19:29 GMT -5
I understand all the points that have been made against giving a wife this letter, but I am trying to understand why the scenario is improved by replacing the letter with divorce papers and saying "Call my lawyer." I would like to answer this from my own case and experience. That's what it takes to remove the pedestal and level the playing field. Short and abrupt, leaving no room for manipulation. It's the beginning to taking your life back and ending the control that I was trained to give for decades. A vast improvement over a letter that will be used , twisted, lied about, manipulated like gasoline on a fire. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 5, 2017 15:46:00 GMT -5
My parents and siblings know everything they were a part of my support system. A handful of my closest friends know everything too but most don't know my ex.
The friends we had together, the neighbors, friends from our children's activities, our children - they do not know the details or about the SM. His parents - I have no idea what he told them.
My kids are too young to know but one day if I see that they are not so happy in their relationship I will share information about SM with them.
Most people we just said - we grew apart. As well, most people really don't care.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 16:12:05 GMT -5
Just to make sure I understand what you're saying, though. Your suggestion is that I do present the letter to my wife (I get tongue tied easily and really want to make sure I cover all my points), but it is for her eyes only. If anyone else asks, politely use a paraphrased version of your explanation. Essentially, keep some dignity here (for both of us). Does that sum it up? It also helps that every word of that is the truth. If so, I see what you are getting at. Like you said, my emotions are all over the place here, and having detached advice from others wrestling with the same issues is truly priceless. The decision to leave is mine, but there are many ways it can be done, and each approach will have profound ramifications upon the relationship I have with the mother of my children for the rest of my life. The part I struggle with is "we couldn't work it out" seems to work fine with friends and even distant family. For my children, her parents, and my parents, it seems terribly weak and dismissing. This is especially true since I've already discussed with my father (I really needed to talk with someone at the time). The person I especially want to share more with is my mom. Perhaps I can do so in broad brush strokes without the details. Yes, I think giving the letter is fine, for her eyes only. Just so it doesn't come out of left field, I'd preface it with a "Honey, I'm at a turning point in this marriage. I can't continue in it. I wanted to be sure I had my thoughts collected, so please read this and then let's talk as soon as you're ready. I want the best for both of us in the end." Just my 2 cents. Be prepared for anything though. My refuser REFUSED my divorce request and I acquiesced to another 2 years. Here I sit and here I wait. My resolve is good and I want/need a peaceable outcome. That's why I've stayed. Just be prepared for any outcome. Have plans A, B, C, and maybe D at the ready. The rest, as far as how you explain this to others, will come in time. But, I definitely believe that whatever we put out into the universe comes back to us. Put love out there and you're sure to get it back, from someone, somewhere. And, at the end of the day, our refusers deserve love too. At the end of the day, we have to forgive them, for they know not what they do. That doesn't mean we have to sit back and keep taking it though. Move on with love. Your kids will thank you for it one day and it'll improve your relationship with them (and your STBX) in the long run. Heck, I'm thinking my refuser and I will even be awesome friends one day! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 16:31:53 GMT -5
I understand all the points that have been made against giving a wife this letter, but I am trying to understand why the scenario is improved by replacing the letter with divorce papers and saying "Call my lawyer." For starters, mediation is miles cheaper than lawyers. Also, there's something aggressive about serving papers. I refuse to do it, unless I am backed into a corner. And I may well be, if refuser doesn't let me go when he's said he would after the 2 years is up. However, he's been warned. The olive branch has been extended. I've given way more chances than I ever should have. If he chooses to fight me the next time I say "it's over, let's mediate our way out of this marriage," he will be very unpleasantly surprised at the claws I am prepared to show. I'd just prefer not to go that route. I sense that shamwow is also looking to end this as amicably as possible as well. I say kudos to that. |
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