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Post by lakeside4003 on Jan 2, 2017 22:16:14 GMT -5
Not sure if this is going to sound unbelievable, or just another example of what too many here understand as extreme avoidance...
I typically start to get ready for bed around 10-10:30, my routine is to always have a good book and read a chapter or 2 before nodding off. Usually up at dawn/first light (especially when I was commuting 1.5 hrs each way to a highly stressful job for the last 20+ years). Kinda normal stuff so far...
I fully get that people like their 'alone time' and my wife likes to spend hers until 1-2am (she usually falls asleep on the couch, then gets up to bed 2-2:30). Of course, this means she would then like to sleep until 9am or after, effectively zeroing-out any chance for intimacy, or just being awake in bed together.
This would seem reasonable to me if it were a few times/week, and even somewhat understandable if it were 4-5 nights/week. However, (and here's the 'believe it or not' part) this behavior happens 360+ nights/year and has been the standard for well over 10 years now. I got so many excuses about this pattern ever since I started complaining about intimacy issues, the lack of frequency of any sex - and the utter lack of initiating anything playfully.
Having brought this up numerous times, with our therapists and directly - she's in denial - saying I'm exaggerating, it's not done on purpose, it's my way to have some control, she's busy with projects, etc., etc., etc...
Has anyone ever heard of this type of avoidance that has clearly created a SM just based on sleeping patterns? Of course, there's much more to our story, but this single aspect is infuriating to me for the simple reality of it - and also due to the extreme avoidance of any introspection as to the impact this alone has had on our marriage and taking some type of ownership about it.
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Post by shamwow on Jan 2, 2017 22:23:15 GMT -5
Similar issues here.
If she goes to bed first she will become instantly asleep within seconds of the lights in the living room going out. If I go to bed first she will stay up and out last me.
If yours valued you she would adjust her sleeping habits.
At least that's my 2 cents worth.
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Post by baza on Jan 2, 2017 23:33:56 GMT -5
Whether your missus is avoidant by accident or on purpose doesn't matter.
Whether she is avoidant by choice or by her core nature doesn't matter.
Whether she is avoidant due to the example of her peer group or whether she thought it up all by herself likewise matters not at all.
Whether she is avoidant due to a real or bogus medical condition doesn't matter either.
Whether she is avoidant due to her genetics or because she is just a shit of a person doesn't matter.
The end fact is that she is avoidant.
It doesn't matter "why" she is avoidant.
Even if you knew for sure "why she is avoidant (and you probably never will) it would not change things one iota.
She would still be avoidant.
And you would still be disenfranchised.
And you will still suffer the same mental anguish.
And you will still be confronted by the same 3 choices facing everyone else here.
"Why" spouses are avoidant doesn't matter. They just are.
Avoidant "whys" are a dime a dozen, and none of them materially alter the fact that you are disenfranchised.
You are disenfranchised.
You stay.
You cheat.
You leave.
There are your options, all perfectly legitimate choices.
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Post by beachguy on Jan 3, 2017 5:27:12 GMT -5
Avoidant refusers use different methods. The end result is the same. Your choices are the same. You might need a new therapist although ZipCode Therapy seems in order here.
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Post by thefullmoon on Jan 3, 2017 8:46:21 GMT -5
Not sure if this is going to sound unbelievable, or just another example of what too many here understand as extreme avoidance... I typically start to get ready for bed around 10-10:30, my routine is to always have a good book and read a chapter or 2 before nodding off. Usually up at dawn/first light (especially when I was commuting 1.5 hrs each way to a highly stressful job for the last 20+ years). Kinda normal stuff so far... I fully get that people like their 'alone time' and my wife likes to spend hers until 1-2am (she usually falls asleep on the couch, then gets up to bed 2-2:30). Of course, this means she would then like to sleep until 9am or after, effectively zeroing-out any chance for intimacy, or just being awake in bed together. This would seem reasonable to me if it were a few times/week, and even somewhat understandable if it were 4-5 nights/week. However, (and here's the 'believe it or not' part) this behavior happens 360+ nights/year and has been the standard for well over 10 years now. I got so many excuses about this pattern ever since I started complaining about intimacy issues, the lack of frequency of any sex - and the utter lack of initiating anything playfully. Having brought this up numerous times, with our therapists and directly - she's in denial - saying I'm exaggerating, it's not done on purpose, it's my way to have some control, she's busy with projects, etc., etc., etc... Has anyone ever heard of this type of avoidance that has clearly created a SM just based on sleeping patterns? Of course, there's much more to our story, but this single aspect is infuriating to me for the simple reality of it - and also due to the extreme avoidance of any introspection as to the impact this alone has had on our marriage and taking some type of ownership about it. Those who want look for the ways, those who don't look for excuses... Before my marriage went sexless(health issues),we had very different sleeping patterns...I am an extreme owl☺... my husband is the opposite... it did not effect our sex life at all... we just had an "early night" or "relaxing afternoon"... couple of times weekly... |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 3, 2017 9:09:12 GMT -5
My hand is raised the highest in the room as a "me too!" The "why" is irrelevant, what is important is your new awareness, of what you went along with at a self destructive, self sacrificing cost to avoid conflict and keep the peace. With your new awareness you will begin to notice how many other areas of your marriage are treated the same way.Areas like, going out to eat, visiting friends, vacations, church, hobbies, friendships, computer time, finances, budgeting, retirement,etc... You may also discover that what you have been programmed to label compromising, or a discussion, has been neither. Whoever brings up the subject, it gets voted on. Seems fair? Only her "no" will always over-ride your answer. Part of the "pedestal" that needs to be done away with. shrink4men.com/2012/04/05/putting-women-on-pedestals-dont-do-it/ |
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 3, 2017 9:18:27 GMT -5
Yes my ex usually didn't come to bed until 4 am and I got out of bed at 5 am.
He would fall asleep on the couch. Sometimes sleep there the whole night too.
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Post by iceman on Jan 3, 2017 11:12:19 GMT -5
Oh yeah! My wife does the same thing. I'm usually in bed around 10 pm. Midnight is an early bedtime for her. Typically, it's 1 or 2 am, sometimes later. I agree with greatcoastal the 'why' doesn't matter. She's purposely avoiding the one time in the day when we have the opportunity for intimacy. She can't be oblivious to this. In the past I repeatedly pointed this out. Still she continues to do it. It's simply not important too her. My wife says she does it because she can't fall asleep. I'm thinking that's perfect! It's good time to have sex. I could certainly stay up longer for sex. We could have sex and then if she wanted she could then go downstairs and do whatever she does until she's sleepy. Sadly, my wife doesn't have those same thoughts. If I happen to wake up when she does come to bed and try to be affectionate she completely ignores me. Just turns on her side facing away from on the edge of the bed. I marvel that she doesn't fall out of bed. No chance in the morning either. She just ignores any advances I make. She's wore me down. I don't even try anymore. Being explicitly rejected over and over has taken its toll.
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Post by novembercomingfire on Jan 3, 2017 13:52:55 GMT -5
I agree that the reasons don't matter, but I stupidly remain astonished by the number and depth of the excuses and behavior patterns just to avoid sex. As i routinely (and rhetorically) ask, who the hell doesn't like or want orgasms?
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 3, 2017 14:03:05 GMT -5
I agree that the reasons don't matter, but I stupidly remain astonished by the number and depth of the excuses and behavior patterns just to avoid sex. As i routinely (and rhetorically) ask, who the hell doesn't like or want orgasms? It sure seems that way to most of us? Who doesn't like or want orgasms? They were supposed to be part of the marriage, but there not free are they? To the giver they are, but not to a taker, a controller. There's too high a cost of fear in having to be vulnerable, and not in total control, along with childhood trauma, self esteem issues, etc.... All things better to be left up to a extraordinarily good therapist with years of work ahead of them. While we move on and share our wonderful selves with someone who will give back in return. Like a marriage is supposed to be. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 3, 2017 14:10:49 GMT -5
I agree that the reasons don't matter, but I stupidly remain astonished by the number and depth of the excuses and behavior patterns just to avoid sex. As i routinely (and rhetorically) ask, who the hell doesn't like or want orgasms? No shit!! |
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Post by beachguy on Jan 3, 2017 14:23:14 GMT -5
Asexual people may have sex drives. They just strongly prefer solo. Just sayin', while you're puzzling this one out. The idea that they might occasionally use you for a dildo or fleshlight just happens to fit the profile...
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Post by beachguy on Jan 3, 2017 14:29:54 GMT -5
Just to reinforce what I just said, this is scraped from the AVEN faq. This isn't some strange idea of mine, this is apparently the "party line"... and if you read it and think about it, it might explain a lot to at least some of us (it explained a LOT to me...):
I masturbate/have sexual fantasies. What do you make of that?
Most asexuals are physically capable of sex. Some masturbate and some do not. Since masturbation produces a pleasurable sensation, many asexuals choose to use it to take pleasure from their bodies. Some asexuals can only arouse themselves manually (by applying friction to sexual organs), while others can turn themselves on with thought or even outside stimulus, such as pornography or erotic literature.
There is an important distinction between sexual and asexual people when it comes to masturbation: while some asexuals don't think about anything specifically sexual during masturbation, if they do think about other people or view pornography, these interpersonal interactions are only fantasy. If an asexual were actually given the opportunity to be sexual with the fantasized person(s), there would be no sexual attraction, or the attraction would be so low as to be completely ignorable.
Some masturbating asexuals do not have a sex drive motivating them; they just do it because it's nice or to relieve stress. Other asexuals masturbate because they have a personal sex drive (libido) that they wish to take care of privately; they may experience arousal as a biological response to outside stimulus and wish to relieve themselves of it without a desire for partnered sex. Still more, some asexuals may be considered autosexual; they are sexually attracted to themselves and as such take sexual pleasure from their own bodies. The common factor is that all asexuals, masturbating or not, have little or no sexual attraction to other people.
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Post by beachguy on Jan 3, 2017 14:45:48 GMT -5
lakeside4003 , your wife has made it very clear to you that she has no interest in having sex with you. You are her walking ATM machine, childcare provider, social escort, or whatever. But she's made it very clear she doesn't love you THAT way. I can assure you it is equally infuriating, no matter what excuse they use. Apparently your therapist refuses to call her on that, probably because your therapist knows that if s/he did, it would be the last session and you would file immediately, and s/he would immediately lose a client. Better for the therapist to let the bullshit play out as long as you and your insurance company are paying the bills. Sorry to be so blunt and cynical, but it is what it is.
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Post by lakeside4003 on Jan 3, 2017 16:37:09 GMT -5
to all - thank you very much for your acknowledgements! we all know that it's a tough thing to deal with - and too often difficult to acknowledge with family and even some close friends, so this forum is wonderful to be able to speak (write) freely and openly about this.
FYI - we had our weekly therapy session today and I strongly presented how ridiculous this has been, frustrating, depressing and absolute poison to any marriage. I presented the idea that the best way to move forward (instead of blaming all sorts of various events over the years) is to thoroughly acknowledge this, 'own it' and work specifically on this issue, otherwise I am gone. I suggested our next step is to separate - which finally seemed to get her attention...
I told her that I will always love her and have tremendous feelings for her, but that the poison has taken it's toll.
Happy New Year to all!
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