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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 11, 2016 8:49:23 GMT -5
I don't wish to be arguementative Brother tbk, but on what basis do you figure that "the kids need to know" the contents of your recollection of a particular conversation you had with your missus 8 years ago ? I just can't see how this advances your exit agenda in any way, or advances your relationship with your kids longer term. There are things about my parents situation that were shielded from me when I was a teenager. My sister is 4 years older than me. A big difference when your a teenager. She knew/knows about things that I am still finding out from her as I discuss my divorce with her. The information helps to change , form, and adjust to my up-bringing. Mom was bi-polar, it helps me realize why dad acted the way he did. They have both passed away. Yet to this day, I can only imagine how dad would have wanted things to be very different in our lives. The person he was in my childhood, verses the person during my teenage years ,when mom's bi-polar reached it's peak. I remember a day when dad was driving me home to my apartment, I was 22 yrs old. He told me how proud he was of me, my job, my friends, the person I had become. Of course I still glow in that to this very day. However... there were thoughts of, sure took you long enough to ever say that, would have been helpful to have heard that before, and a little more often. The more I hear about how he dealt with mother and there situation, the more I understand, how secluded he was, and why. He learned to play it safe, and not communicate. I look back at photos of my relationship with my wife and kids, when they were young. Compared to now, during the teenage years. We don't take pictures any more, we don't do anything together anymore, we don't communicate at all. i am still here. I reached out, went above and beyond, and continually get rejected by a manipulative controller. It's going to be so,so, much better, easier, to tell my growing teens things about who I am, and how I want things done, and how pleased I am with them without the presence of my STBX. They need to know, and they are going to benefit from learning more about me, and themselves. Half of my kids are adopted from a foreign country, and had a horrendous, torturous background. Not something they talk about a whole lot. When they do talk about it, it's when I share some of my own problems with our own family. They need to know, that dad is no saint, (my STBX rarely ever admits that she was wrong, or made a mistake, she changes the subject or shifts the blame) that I deal with problems just like theirs, and I screw up! Learn from mistakes, and communicate openly. Everyone gets to be a sucker once.
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 11, 2016 9:02:31 GMT -5
greatcoastal - if I put aside this story altogether, because I do have some issues with it - sorry! - I would have to say the difference here is that you are not talking about their mother. I really don't give a fuck what you think about that! It wasn't directed at you. Besides I'm just a SHITTY COMMUNICATOR.
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Post by thebaffledking on Dec 11, 2016 9:02:50 GMT -5
The kids are grown now, but she had a particular penchant for going off on me in front of the kids (and does to this day) while in the car. That was a common M.O. with her. I think she wanted, in some twisted way, to bring me down BELOW her in the family dynamic. And of course no sex for 8 years now........which she shouted, last time I brought it up 3 years ago, "THAT'S MUTUAL, SO DON'T YOU DARE HANG THAT ON ME!" And that's when I knew it was hopeless.........just needed to start disentangling from years of trauma bonding, codependence on her mood swings, maybe PTSD, maybe Stockholm, who knows. And this, folks, is emotional abuse at its finest..........and physical, too, if you count forced abstinence as physical abuse (it is). God Bless Us, Every One. A lot in your story that I can relate to. My stbx is an emotional abuser too. Criticized me constantly in front of my daughter and even using her to support his point of view. And constantly saying 'we' (he and my daughter) in stead of 'I' when he gave his opinion about me. He also said not that long ago, that our sexlessness was mutual. Especially after he touched my shoulder last year, after not having touched me at all for more than 10 years. I didn't appreciate that, I froze. And felt insulted. Have you read this? :http://iliasm.org/thread/787/emotional-blackmail Take a look here too: outofthefog.website/I am out now and the fog is beginning to clear. As long as you are in that situation it is hard to think yourself free. But with small steps at the time and perseverance it is definitely possible to get out. Thank you, Tamara, I'll check those out!
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Post by thebaffledking on Dec 11, 2016 9:05:18 GMT -5
I don't wish to be arguementative Brother tbk, but on what basis do you figure that "the kids need to know" the contents of your recollection of a particular conversation you had with your missus 8 years ago ? I just can't see how this advances your exit agenda in any way, or advances your relationship with your kids longer term. There are things about my parents situation that were shielded from me when I was a teenager. My sister is 4 years older than me. A big difference when your a teenager. She knew/knows about things that I am still finding out from her as I discuss my divorce with her. The information helps to change , form, and adjust to my up-bringing. Mom was bi-polar, it helps me realize why dad acted the way he did. They have both passed away. Yet to this day, I can only imagine how dad would have wanted things to be very different in our lives. The person he was in my childhood, verses the person during my teenage years ,when mom's bi-polar reached it's peak. I remember a day when dad was driving me home to my apartment, I was 22 yrs old. He told me how proud he was of me, my job, my friends, the person I had become. Of course I still glow in that to this very day. However... there were thoughts of, sure took you long enough to ever say that, would have been helpful to have heard that before, and a little more often. The more I hear about how he dealt with mother and there situation, the more I understand, how secluded he was, and why. He learned to play it safe, and not communicate. I look back at photos of my relationship with my wife and kids, when they were young. Compared to now, during the teenage years. We don't take pictures any more, we don't do anything together anymore, we don't communicate at all. i am still here. I reached out, went above and beyond, and continually get rejected by a manipulative controller. It's going to be so,so, much better, easier, to tell my growing teens things about who I am, and how I want things done, and how pleased I am with them without the presence of my STBX. They need to know, and they are going to benefit from learning more about me, and themselves. Half of my kids are adopted from a foreign country, and had a horrendous, torturous background. Not something they talk about a whole lot. When they do talk about it, it's when I share some of my own problems with our own family. They need to know, that dad is no saint, (my STBX rarely ever admits that she was wrong, or made a mistake, she changes the subject or shifts the blame) that I deal with problems just like theirs, and I screw up! Learn from mistakes, and communicate openly. Everyone gets to be a sucker once. Could have written this myself, gc. Perfect. That's what I'm talking about, right there. Thank you.
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Post by JMX on Dec 11, 2016 9:14:47 GMT -5
greatcoastal - if I put aside this story altogether, because I do have some issues with it - sorry! - I would have to say the difference here is that you are not talking about their mother. I really don't give a fuck what you think about that! It wasn't directed at you. Besides I'm just a SHITTY COMMUNICATOR. Still pissed about that? I thought we moved past that and were friendly again. This was not an attack. My point being - you relayed a story about someone other than your wife, their mother. It's not the same thing. This is a forum. Everyone comments on everyone's comments and stories.
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 11, 2016 9:40:44 GMT -5
I really don't give a fuck what you think about that! It wasn't directed at you. Besides I'm just a SHITTY COMMUNICATOR. Still pissed about that? I thought we moved past that and were friendly again. This was not an attack. My point being - you relayed a story about someone other than your wife, their mother. It's not the same thing. This is a forum. Everyone comments on everyone's comments and stories. You remind me of the lady at my Divorce Recovery, who had only her opinion. She wouldn't let me speak, she kept interrupting me, I said right to her face, "your not going to let me speak are you?". I stood up and walked out, and said, "we are done here." Ironically we had a speaker who taught us to do just that, moments before! What i didn't say was , bitch, now I know why you are here, your a controller, no wonder your divorced, good for him! (she was removed from there group) I believe my story is a fine example of communicating with teenagers, and family, about past mistakes. This is also something I rarely mention to anyone. I don't appreciate being degraded like that when all I am trying to do is help someone else, in turn it helps me. Pissed? NO. Forgive but don't forget. Trust yet verify. My way of standing up and walking out on you. when you don't think my deep sharing has any importance. It has a ton of importance and relevancy to the topic at hand. Your the one who needs to realize that. Now I am going to go about my day and deal with my divorce situation. It's very tempting to go stand by some moving trains today. ( i am not even going to correct my spelling, for some of the dweebs who go bolistic over it)
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Post by thebaffledking on Dec 11, 2016 9:49:39 GMT -5
Guys.......I respect you both so much, and appreciate the input you both have given, very much. This thread, however, isn't the place......
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Post by JMX on Dec 11, 2016 9:51:11 GMT -5
greatcoastal - 1.) I really do hope you stay away from trains today. I am sorry your divorce has been the mess that it is. I have commented supportively as such in the past. 2.) I cannot interrupt you on this forum as I don't know what you are saying until you finish posting. 3.). I know you are done with being manipulated and controlled and are taking your life back - do not lump me in the same category. I am neither- I simply disagree with you and a couple of others re: children and what you tell them. 3.) because we all have differing opinions, what is wrong with saying you disagree? It's a discussion (remember... with no interruptions!) Good luck today.
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Post by unmatched on Dec 11, 2016 22:33:03 GMT -5
One thing that I have read a number of times when looking at divorce and kids, and has always stayed with me, is that kids will tend to see their parents as aspects of themselves, so anything negative you say about the other parent they will tend to internalise and they will often either use it to put themselves down or they will fight against it (and distance themselves from you as a result). So personally I would be very circumspect about saying anything negative at all.
I am sure your kids are as smart as you. They already know what the dynamics in your family are. But as long as you are not being fully yourself and you keep allowing your wife to do what she does, they are never going to be able to fully respect you. And going back to the first thing I said, particularly in your son's case that probably means he is in some way internalising that perceived 'weakness' and fighting the fear of that in himself. Which is going to lead him to being angry and upset with you. Once you have some space and he can see you standing up as a good person in your own right on your own two feet, you might find that will do a huge amount for his own self-image too.
(That might be bollocks, obviously, so ignore if it doesn't fit...)
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Post by novembercomingfire on Dec 12, 2016 8:55:49 GMT -5
One thing that I have read a number of times when looking at divorce and kids, and has always stayed with me, is that kids will tend to see their parents as aspects of themselves, so anything negative you say about the other parent they will tend to internalise and they will often either use it to put themselves down or they will fight against it (and distance themselves from you as a result). So personally I would be very circumspect about saying anything negative at all. I am sure your kids are as smart as you. They already know what the dynamics in your family are. But as long as you are not being fully yourself and you keep allowing your wife to do what she does, they are never going to be able to fully respect you. And going back to the first thing I said, particularly in your son's case that probably means he is in some way internalising that perceived 'weakness' and fighting the fear of that in himself. Which is going to lead him to being angry and upset with you. Once you have some space and he can see you standing up as a good person in your own right on your own two feet, you might find that will do a huge amount for his own self-image too. (That might be bollocks, obviously, so ignore if it doesn't fit...) This is really good, from my perspective. I have neither the need nor the desire for my children to see my side of the story as i make the slow transition out of hell. They will form their own opinions, and my editorializing, regardless of accuracy, will add nothing. She is their mother, and they need her. She has conditioned them to view me as a paycheck for the most part anyway, and how or why would I or could I change that now. However, it isn't my right to ruin their relationship with her, and I pray that they will have a good relationship with her long after I am gone. The problem that I have is that by my actions, regardless of intent or motivation, i have provided my son with exactly what I never wanted him to see as an example of masculinity and partner dynamics. This awareness is hard to live with.
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Post by unmatched on Dec 13, 2016 19:05:48 GMT -5
One thing that I have read a number of times when looking at divorce and kids, and has always stayed with me, is that kids will tend to see their parents as aspects of themselves, so anything negative you say about the other parent they will tend to internalise and they will often either use it to put themselves down or they will fight against it (and distance themselves from you as a result). So personally I would be very circumspect about saying anything negative at all. I am sure your kids are as smart as you. They already know what the dynamics in your family are. But as long as you are not being fully yourself and you keep allowing your wife to do what she does, they are never going to be able to fully respect you. And going back to the first thing I said, particularly in your son's case that probably means he is in some way internalising that perceived 'weakness' and fighting the fear of that in himself. Which is going to lead him to being angry and upset with you. Once you have some space and he can see you standing up as a good person in your own right on your own two feet, you might find that will do a huge amount for his own self-image too. (That might be bollocks, obviously, so ignore if it doesn't fit...) This is really good, from my perspective. I have neither the need nor the desire for my children to see my side of the story as i make the slow transition out of hell. They will form their own opinions, and my editorializing, regardless of accuracy, will add nothing. She is their mother, and they need her. She has conditioned them to view me as a paycheck for the most part anyway, and how or why would I or could I change that now. However, it isn't my right to ruin their relationship with her, and I pray that they will have a good relationship with her long after I am gone. The problem that I have is that by my actions, regardless of intent or motivation, i have provided my son with exactly what I never wanted him to see as an example of masculinity and partner dynamics. This awareness is hard to live with. But if, over the next 5 years or so, he sees you turn your life around and go from being a resentful doormat to a much freer, happier kind of man, and he sees you standing up as an individual person in your own right with your own interests, desires and needs, your own integrity, your own loves and connections ... then he will learn a huge amount about what is important in life and how to go after it. And he will learn that nobody is stuck where they are, that we are all making choices all the time. And I promise you he will come to love you for it.
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Post by baza on Dec 13, 2016 19:26:14 GMT -5
I'd just like to endorse Brother unmatched comment above. And whereas I wouldn't "promise" that your kids will "come to love you for it", I most certainly believe from my own experience, that this is a very very very likely outcome. - My kids (both adults now) were both pretty pissed off when I left (in Oct 2009) and that took a while to thaw (probably close on 12 months for the younger) but the relationships started to heal, and, grow. I'd suggest better than before. Then, another upheaval came up, my ex missus' sudden death in 2015. This really applied extreme pressure to the relationships with the kids. It not only survived, it thrived. And whereas this was a tragic event in and of itself, many many good and positive things have emerged, that might otherwise have taken years to reach fruition - or perhaps might never have reached fruition.
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