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Post by thebaffledking on Nov 23, 2016 3:26:08 GMT -5
One thing I have REALLY struggled with is that i have joined my wife in the 'show' -- everything's good, everything's cool -- I go about my business, and haven't made a fuss since about 3 years ago when I brought it up again and she totally gaslighted me by saying the sexlessness was "mutual" - angrily. NO idea where she got that idea.
So for some reason, now that I am ready to leave, I struggle with the fact that I pretended to 'buy in' to this sham of a marriage by just not rocking the boat anymore, being civil, continuing to do what a husband does (except fuck)........
I don't know why this bothers me. It's not like I was going to bring up my pain and anguish and discontentment every day........so I just went on. And I think she thinks I've settled into being okay with things......while the truth is I have checked so far out of this marriage, I can confirm by TOUCH that Pluto is not a planet.
What a mindfuck this whole thing has been.
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Post by bballgirl on Nov 23, 2016 3:43:08 GMT -5
My ex used to do the opposite. He used to brag to other people sometimes in front of me what a great sex life we have and for years I would just laugh or giggle to not embarrass him.
Two years ago I stopped, I was so fed up! We were at Thanksgiving with his family and he was showing his male cousins a picture of him with 15 medals around his neck from baseball tournaments. They asked what he got all the medals for and he said, "Being so good in bed". I couldn't believe my ears and couldn't hold my tongue so with a tone of disgust in my voice I answered back and very sarcastically said, "I don't think so, maybe for snoring in bed". Everyone laughed and that was the last time he pulled that shit. I even talked to him about it on the way home and told him why would he say that if its not true and he knows the no sex bothers me? He said - it was just a joke.
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Post by baza on Nov 23, 2016 4:38:38 GMT -5
In any ILIASM shithole, the refused spouse is complicit in the dynamic. Their continued presence in the situation is the proof of that complicity. - Sometimes, the complicity goes further. The refused spouse may join in the bullshit, and go along with the refusers act toward other people that everything is great in the deal. Or pull the curtain across their real feelings, hiding their discontent from the spouse. Or both. And the noose tightens. And the refused spouse helps it tighten. - It is a huge retrograde step to be part of a bullshit facade. And it ain't even smart. Because among those people you are bullshitting could be persons of potential support to you, IF they knew what was going on. - It is to be avoided. Whereas it is usually a good policy to tell the truth, that might be a bridge too far for most refused spouses. Another option is to stay silent, neither confirming or denying the refusers bullshit stories. But "joining in" This option has nothing going for it. - Then of course, is when you acknowledge that your deal is a fuck up, there is the necessity of confronting your spouse. And that process is going to reveal that you have been living a lie with her for XX years, as well as now being about to dump her. It is highly likely to result in a rather lively discussion I'd imagine. - "Today" is as good a day as any to quit being part of the act.
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Post by petrushka on Nov 23, 2016 6:19:12 GMT -5
I just *hate* pretending and putting up a front of something that does not exist. It was one of the things that really pissed me off about living with my first wife: the constant 'instructions of what to say and what not to say' in any separate social context so she could pretend to be something she wasn't instead of being who she was (except maybe she was nobody outside of the various pretenses for various peer groups). And I pissed her off by being non-compliant.
I am basically an honest person, and it just riles me and makes my teeth stand on end to pretend at something I do not believe in, at something I am not. You get me undiluted, and raw. I have a very hard time to take people seriously ever after catching them at pretenses ....
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Post by GeekGoddess on Nov 23, 2016 6:37:38 GMT -5
I don't know why that is what's bothering you either TBK, but as Baz suggests - you can give up that part of the pretense (& probably should). There where will multiple layers of crap to get through if you're going to get out - so don't bother icing it like a cake. True compassion through this will hurt. Don't make it harder by lying to yourself & others (her). Start now. Discontent may show. That's fine. You're allowed to feel anything you feel. Your emotions are not wrong. My Ex telling me that my opinions were wrong used to piss me off so badly. It's disrespectful in the most intimate way to believe that I don't know how to live my emotional life.
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Post by JonDoe on Nov 23, 2016 7:12:32 GMT -5
My Ex telling me that my opinions were wrong used to piss me off so badly. It's disrespectful in the most intimate way to believe that I don't know how to live my emotional life. My wife also invalidates my feelings and tells me that my opinions are wrong all the time, and if I voice my discontent she tells me that I'm too sensitive. The other thing that really pisses me off is that she constantly talks over me. A few years ago, my youngest started noticing and following her tactics, which he has perfected and taken to another level. At some point this started bothering me much more than the forced celibacy.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Nov 23, 2016 7:19:33 GMT -5
My Ex telling me that my opinions were wrong used to piss me off so badly. It's disrespectful in the most intimate way to believe that I don't know how to live my emotional life. My wife also invalidates my feelings and tells me that my opinions are wrong all the time, and if I voice my discontent she tells me that I'm too sensitive. The other thing that really pisses me off is that she constantly talks over me. A few years ago, my youngest started noticing and following her tactics, which he has perfected and taken to another level. At some point this started bothering me much more than the forced celibacy. My therapist assures me there is no such thing as "too sensitive" - if I am sensitive about something I may need time to process it, feel it. I may need some respect or comforting or alone time. Or I may need a heartless asshole to back off and stop insulting me - insinuating that having feelings is "too" sensitive. But there's really just people who understand me. Or find me worth putting up with when they don't understand me. And then there are people who berate me when they don't understand me. And I'm trying NOT to hang out with those people anymore. Jon - your feelings are not wrong. Being disregarded as a presence (by being talked over) - THAT is wrong. I'm sorry you have to put up with that. I dealt with it for years until recently. Good luck with it.
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Post by petrushka on Nov 23, 2016 7:54:53 GMT -5
My Ex telling me that my opinions were wrong used to piss me off so badly. It's disrespectful in the most intimate way to believe that I don't know how to live my emotional life. My wife also invalidates my feelings and tells me that my opinions are wrong all the time, and if I voice my discontent she tells me that I'm too sensitive. The other thing that really pisses me off is that she constantly talks over me. A few years ago, my youngest started noticing and following her tactics, which he has perfected and taken to another level. At some point this started bothering me much more than the forced celibacy. No respect, Jon. No respect at all. It would infuriate me -- it DOES infuriate me when faced with that. Questioning the authenticity and legitimacy of your significant other's feelings is just abuse. You may think they are unjustified, but that does not mean that they don't feel what they feel. My wife no longer insists that I am angry when I am not .... but she still thinks it. It doesn't get into her emotional intelligence that when I am loud, I am passionate about something, and when I am angry, I go white and very very quiet. It's hard for me, to curb my passions at times ... ... of course the worst is that I cannot, verbally or non verbally, express my passion for her. She does not do passion. It's scary. All I can do is try to respect the latter. <sigh> Of course, they who don't respect us, demand respect in a loud voice, and that is a medicine I find hard to swallow. Very hard.
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Post by petrushka on Nov 23, 2016 8:11:15 GMT -5
You're allowed to feel anything you feel. Your emotions are not wrong. My Ex telling me that my opinions were wrong used to piss me off so badly. It's disrespectful in the most intimate way to believe that I don't know how to live my emotional life. Question: when you say 'opinions' here, I assume you mean 'stated feelings' or 'emotional experiences'? I mean, I find my opinions are often wrong .. and it never seems to bother me if someone tells me why there is a better way. Currently going through this every few days while we are developing building plans ... GiGo applies to my opinions. And sometimes I (we) just come to false conclusions even with the right facts. That does not faze me. So long as you have the better facts, the better argument, the better model I will readily concede, and feel free to call what I said erroneously 'bullshit'. I don't experience that as disrespecting me, but as dissing an idea. ... but if someone says my feelings are wrong, my emotions are different from what I state (! w.t.f. !) or that I'm lying about it, then the excrement hits the air reticulation device. As you said 'it's disrespectful in the most intimate way'. Genuine feelings are genuine feelings. Yes, yes. Accuse me of lying when I let you see my innermost self, and you'd better put on your asbestos underpants .... (or be prepared for me to walk out of the room). ;-)
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Post by eternaloptimism on Nov 23, 2016 10:02:14 GMT -5
You're allowed to feel anything you feel. Your emotions are not wrong. My Ex telling me that my opinions were wrong used to piss me off so badly. It's disrespectful in the most intimate way to believe that I don't know how to live my emotional life. Question: when you say 'opinions' here, I assume you mean 'stated feelings' or 'emotional experiences'? I mean, I find my opinions are often wrong .. and it never seems to bother me if someone tells me why there is a better way. Currently going through this every few days while we are developing building plans ... GiGo applies to my opinions. And sometimes I (we) just come to false conclusions even with the right facts. That does not faze me. So long as you have the better facts, the better argument, the better model I will readily concede, and feel free to call what I said erroneously 'bullshit'. I don't experience that as disrespecting me, but as dissing an idea. ... but if someone says my feelings are wrong, my emotions are different from what I state (! w.t.f. !) or that I'm lying about it, then the excrement hits the air reticulation device. As you said 'it's disrespectful in the most intimate way'. Genuine feelings are genuine feelings. Yes, yes. Accuse me of lying when I let you see my innermost self, and you'd better put on your asbestos underpants .... (or be prepared for me to walk out of the room). ;-) Petrushka I totally get this. I can't have a conversation about ANYTHING other than the mundane necessities because he does not get passion. At all. If I get animated about something... which I often do... he thinks I'm attacking him. And he won't even let me explain that I'm not attacking him. I am the least attacky person you could meet. But I am passionate about humanity. Even when I'm agreeing with him he thinks I'm attacking him. He can't cope with anything more than yes, no, and what do you want for tea. You give up talking about important stuff after a while.
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 23, 2016 10:53:22 GMT -5
One thing I have REALLY struggled with is that i have joined my wife in the 'show' -- everything's good, everything's cool -- I go about my business, and haven't made a fuss since about 3 years ago when I brought it up again and she totally gaslighted me by saying the sexlessness was "mutual" - angrily. NO idea where she got that idea. So for some reason, now that I am ready to leave, I struggle with the fact that I pretended to 'buy in' to this sham of a marriage by just not rocking the boat anymore, being civil, continuing to do what a husband does (except fuck)........ I can relate to being part of the show. It took decades to realize part of it goes back to growing up with a mother who was bi-polar. You learned the more you said the worse it gets, so you stare at the wall, wait till they are done and avoid. I discovered later in life that I rarely got a word in when having conversations. Mid way in my marriage I tried to change that, my skills at interrupting when someone takes a breath or ends a sentence, are horrible!! Here's an example. This morning after our men's bible study I am standing out in the parking lot talking with Chuck, one of the men I met last week. We are discussing a distant friend that we both know. I am in the middle of a sentences about how I reach out to this person to help him, when Ed walks by. Chuck who I am speaking to turns his head and says" hey ED, what year is that Corvette?". After there conversation I said, "back to what I was saying," and briefly ended my conversation. Was he not interested in what I was saying? Did he even realize that he interrupted me? Does he have a clue that he was rude, arrogant, selfish, and disrespectful? Now the question is, what am I going to do about it? Well when I see him next week I am going to pull him aside and one on one, remind him of what he did, tell him of his rude behavior, and that I will not tolerate being disrespected that way. And if I never speak to him anymore, now he knows why, and that he needs to work on that. And if he keeps it up during our group meeting I will interrupt him in the middle of his sentence and ask someone what year their truck is, and see how he appreciates being interrupted . I just met the guy, so there's very little to loose, and he has much to gain if he wants too. Or would others say, "it happens all the time, no big deal, let it go, your too sensitive!"
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Post by wom360 on Nov 23, 2016 11:07:05 GMT -5
If you haven't said anything why wouldn't she think it was mutual? Honestly that dynamic is what lead to my marriage becoming sexual again. I felt I was being rejected. She thought I didn't want it because I stopped initiating and didn't really complain. Except a few comments here and there.
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Post by timeisfleeting on Nov 23, 2016 11:39:19 GMT -5
One thing I have REALLY struggled with is that i have joined my wife in the 'show' -- everything's good, everything's cool -- I go about my business, and haven't made a fuss since about 3 years ago when I brought it up again and she totally gaslighted me by saying the sexlessness was "mutual" - angrily. NO idea where she got that idea. So for some reason, now that I am ready to leave, I struggle with the fact that I pretended to 'buy in' to this sham of a marriage by just not rocking the boat anymore, being civil, continuing to do what a husband does (except fuck)........ I don't know why this bothers me. It's not like I was going to bring up my pain and anguish and discontentment every day........so I just went on. And I think she thinks I've settled into being okay with things......while the truth is I have checked so far out of this marriage, I can confirm by TOUCH that Pluto is not a planet. What a mindfuck this whole thing has been. Baffled King (a reference to Leonard Cohen, rest his soul?): Everybody lies -- to themselves and to others -- like answering "Good!" when someone asks you "How are you doing?" You know that they don't really want a report on your physical and psychological state. They are just playing their part in a social convention, pretending to be interested in your well being, and you are expected to play your part. But most of the time, most of us think of ourselves as good, honest people. This can cause some problems... Let me suggest 3 concepts that might help you think about this: cognitive dissonance, counter factual, and commitment. One of the things that we humans do is explain our behavior. The explanation that is the easiest is usually "because I wanted to." But you are a good strong honest person. So now you have a problem -- there is dissonance (like a bad chord) between two ideas in your head: 1) I just acted as if everything is OK and it sure as hell isn't and 2) I'm a good strong honest person. So at a non-conscious level you try to resolve the dissonance. You can't deny what you just did and you don't want to believe that you are basically a dishonest person. So, the easiest way out is to just think, maybe everything really isn't as bad as I thought it was. If that were true, then everything would make sense and I would basically be a good strong person acting as I believe that I should. All of those nasty subtle manipulations that really caused you to act as if everything were OK are just to subtle to feel like good explanations. Now looking back we think "if I had only spoken up earlier and more forcefully, we wouldn't be in this SM crap now." That may be true or it may not be true. But whatever we didn't do, we didn't do. There is no way to know what would have happened had we acted differently -- counter to the facts. What happened has happened. But if you go down the counter-factual road you can get caught in endless "could have, should have, would have" cycles none of which by definition are reality. So now we're stuck. Blaming ourselves for not having spoken up sooner or more forcefully, thinking that maybe it really wasn't that bad, and having put years of our lives and tons of effort into a failing marriage. We can't just let that all be for naught. But maybe, just maybe it wasn't. So, we try harder, put up with more crap sinking more physical and psychological energy into a losing battle because we can't bear the thought that all the pain, all the struggle was for nothing. This is a commitment effect -- doing something not because it makes sense now but because we put so much into it before (like Vietnam). These are powerful psychological forces and they are not easily overcome. People die because of them. There is only one way out. We need to admit to ourselves that sometimes we lie and aren't as honest and strong as we like to think. We need to live in the real world and refuse to live in a counter factual world, no matter how attractive it is. And we need to give up counting past efforts as costs and decide based on where we are today. And still it is a struggle.
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Post by eternaloptimism on Nov 23, 2016 14:05:34 GMT -5
Why oh why do humans have to be so bloody complex.
It's exhausting!
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Post by csl on Nov 23, 2016 16:16:37 GMT -5
Two years ago I stopped, I was so fed up! We were at Thanksgiving with his family and he was showing his male cousins a picture of him with 15 medals around his neck from baseball tournaments. They asked what he got all the medals for and he said, "Being so good in bed". I couldn't believe my ears and couldn't hold my tongue so with a tone of disgust in my voice I answered back and very sarcastically said, "I don't think so, maybe for snoring in bed". Ooohhh! So close, yet so far. "From who? You certainly didn't get them from me! You been sleeping around on me?"
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