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Post by JMX on Apr 16, 2016 20:22:10 GMT -5
This isn't about D/s or who takes the lead in bed. This is about women are supposed to defer to their husband in all things. This woman demeans women more than Larry Flynt. Hustler objectifies women but it doesn't tell them to obey. Obey. But hey a godly man won't withhold sex, so they must be doing something right. Dismantle patriarchy. Phin, I agree it's not about d/s in bed. But as GC said later in the thread, it is about how these roles do or don't affect your relationship. I really think it affected mine. It's not my fault and I won't take too much responsibility for it, but at least for me (and maybe a woman or two in an SM) it's something that I have come to in the "why" chase that got me nowhere. It's a lack of respect, or setting up rules or duties within the relationship. I believe it killed our sex life. I think DC got it right in his response. I think that is all everyone is trying to say. How it spun into d/s in bed or, a knock on the Bible (well, i get this because the article was a little *too*) is beyond me. The central theme - when respect is gone (from both genders as GC could attest) the sex *can* go as well.
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Post by JMX on Apr 16, 2016 20:25:09 GMT -5
Someone has to win an argument. I am not saying it has to be the man or it has to be the woman. But someone has to win for there to be closure.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2016 21:11:50 GMT -5
Someone has to win an argument. I am not saying it has to be the man or it has to be the woman. But someone has to win for there to be closure. Or... you talk it out and come to an agreement which fits both parties' needs. This idea that someone has to lose really bothers me. There is such a thing as making sure everyone has their own interests taken into account and a mutually acceptable agreement reached. We've moved on from absolute monarchy in politics, isn't it a gpod idea not to allow absolute monarchy in our homes.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2016 21:16:39 GMT -5
This isn't about D/s or who takes the lead in bed. This is about women are supposed to defer to their husband in all things. This woman demeans women more than Larry Flynt. Hustler objectifies women but it doesn't tell them to obey. Obey. But hey a godly man won't withhold sex, so they must be doing something right. Dismantle patriarchy. There is nothing sexier than a man who views woman as full human beings who deserve not to be demeaned and who do deserve to be treated like the autonomous adults we are.
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Post by JMX on Apr 16, 2016 21:17:29 GMT -5
Someone has to win an argument. I am not saying it has to be the man or it has to be the woman. But someone has to win for there to be closure. Or... you talk it out and come to an agreement which fits both parties' needs. This idea that someone has to lose really bothers me. There is such a thing as making sure everyone has their own interests taken into account and a mutually acceptable agreement reached. We've moved on from absolute monarchy in politics, isn't it a gpod idea not to allow absolute monarchy in our homes. Sure. Compromise is preferred. But can't you see at least a couple of instances where you just will not come to an agreement or a compromise? I guess I need to think of an example. If so (and I will think of a decent conundrum) who yields? I would think it would depend on the strengths of that person.
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Post by TMD on Apr 16, 2016 21:25:21 GMT -5
I, too, have a hard time with submission. And to be honest, I am not sure when I became controlling. I am not sure if I am the chicken or the egg. If I am being honest, the "big nasty" we had 11 years ago - the incident I suspect was the watershed leading to the downward spiral of my marriage - could have been avoided if I had been a more submissive wife and not entirely my own person. We never had clearly defined roles and we never had discussions about it, so I try really hard not to be too hard on myself about it. In my 20s, I was a feminist - and in all the misguided ways. ... Anyway - I do wish that more people in their 20s explored these roles in pre-marital counseling. I wish the Biblical parts of it were taken out because it takes so long to unpack it and make it make sense, that I cannot even properly explain it. This article explained it better than most. It is not about the sex. It is about respect and the different needs of each party. In my case, it's also about trusting him to be a leader. I no longer can do that, just as I cannot make him figure this out for himself. Wow. First,thanks for to link to your EP story. Second, I identify strongly with your response. I was raised in a Christian household, which I railed against slightly, and later completely rejected. With the exception that I strongly believed that when I committed to marry, I had to stick to it at all costs. ((Silly me.)) And I was aligned with feminism. Also an error because I lost a balanced perspective for my life. instead of marriage counselling all new couples should be evaluated by the Gottmann Institure for their % of success in marriage. That is evidence enough for any future relationship I might commit to.
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Post by JMX on Apr 16, 2016 21:26:16 GMT -5
Here we go: Totally a hypothetical:
We have a disagreement about what classes our daughter will take in high school. She has a propensity for math and science.
Husband is a math/science guy, working in those fields. I am in History/English field. We disagree on which classes she should take as electives.
He wants to load her up with more math and science to further her future or career and I want her to take an arts class to lighten her load (focusing her time and attention to her already heavy load) and let her enjoy her time in high school and be creative.
She has no opinion in this example.
Both husband and wife are equal in their feelings that they are doing best for the child and not budging.
Who wins?
I would say it would depend on the pre-communicated roles. Which one has the ultimate end-all say in that area?
Argument over.
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Post by JMX on Apr 16, 2016 21:29:02 GMT -5
I, too, have a hard time with submission. And to be honest, I am not sure when I became controlling. I am not sure if I am the chicken or the egg. If I am being honest, the "big nasty" we had 11 years ago - the incident I suspect was the watershed leading to the downward spiral of my marriage - could have been avoided if I had been a more submissive wife and not entirely my own person. We never had clearly defined roles and we never had discussions about it, so I try really hard not to be too hard on myself about it. In my 20s, I was a feminist - and in all the misguided ways. ... Anyway - I do wish that more people in their 20s explored these roles in pre-marital counseling. I wish the Biblical parts of it were taken out because it takes so long to unpack it and make it make sense, that I cannot even properly explain it. This article explained it better than most. It is not about the sex. It is about respect and the different needs of each party. In my case, it's also about trusting him to be a leader. I no longer can do that, just as I cannot make him figure this out for himself. Wow. First,thanks for to link to your EP story. Second, I identify strongly with your response. I was raised in a Christian household, which I railed against slightly, and later completely rejected. With the exception that I strongly believed that when I committed to marry, I had to stick to it at all costs. ((Silly me.)) And I was aligned with feminism. Also an error because I lost a balanced perspective for my life. instead of marriage counselling all new couples should be evaluated by the Gottmann Institure for their % of success in marriage. That is evidence enough for any future relationship I might commit to. Absolutely agree - I need to look up Gottman Institute!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2016 21:39:54 GMT -5
Or... you talk it out and come to an agreement which fits both parties' needs. This idea that someone has to lose really bothers me. There is such a thing as making sure everyone has their own interests taken into account and a mutually acceptable agreement reached. We've moved on from absolute monarchy in politics, isn't it a gpod idea not to allow absolute monarchy in our homes. Sure. Compromise is preferred. But can't you see at least a couple of instances where you just will not come to an agreement or a compromise? I guess I need to think of an example. If so (and I will think of a decent conundrum) who yields? I would think it would depend on the strengths of that person. I'm sure there are situations where someone has to give more than the other. Like moving for one person's job yet the other has to leave theirs behind. Or someone skipping an opportunity for a move for a job to stay because of someone else's job. I acknowledge there are situations where compromise isn't so much an option (although it can be if desired, there are commuter marriages, I had one for a time). I feel like you're saying that the party with the great job offer that they have to move and disrupt the other's career gets to unilaterally impose that and feel good about it. I'm saying let the decision be bilateral and acknowledge what the other is sacrificing and that it would be fair to make an agreement that in return for her sacrifice moving to an area where she can't get a job in her field, she gets to go back for more training to improve her career prospects in the new place instead of being expected to suck it up and slave away at the substandard options at first available to her theough no fault of her own. In return, now the one who got to move is sacrificing to deal without her income while she retrains so she can still have a career at the level she wants.
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Post by TMD on Apr 16, 2016 21:41:45 GMT -5
JMX, I follow them on FB.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2016 21:44:00 GMT -5
Here we go: Totally a hypothetical: We have a disagreement about what classes our daughter will take in high school. She has a propensity for math and science. Husband is a math/science guy, working in those fields. I am in History/English field. We disagree on which classes she should take as electives. He wants to load her up with more math and science to further her future or career and I want her to take an arts class to lighten her load (focusing her time and attention to her already heavy load) and let her enjoy her time in high school and be creative. She has no opinion in this example. Both husband and wife are equal in their feelings that they are doing best for the child and not budging. Who wins? I would say it would depend on the pre-communicated roles. Which one has the ultimate end-all say in that area? Argument over. Why does the kid have no opinion? That seems the most important factor here. It's the kid's life, in this case all decision making should rest with the kid after guidance from her parents. I don't think inflexible roles are needed, just critical thinking and communication skills.
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Post by JMX on Apr 16, 2016 21:51:21 GMT -5
Here we go: Totally a hypothetical: We have a disagreement about what classes our daughter will take in high school. She has a propensity for math and science. Husband is a math/science guy, working in those fields. I am in History/English field. We disagree on which classes she should take as electives. He wants to load her up with more math and science to further her future or career and I want her to take an arts class to lighten her load (focusing her time and attention to her already heavy load) and let her enjoy her time in high school and be creative. She has no opinion in this example. Both husband and wife are equal in their feelings that they are doing best for the child and not budging. Who wins? I would say it would depend on the pre-communicated roles. Which one has the ultimate end-all say in that area? Argument over. Why does the kid have no opinion? That seems the most important factor here. It's the kid's life, in this case all decision making should rest with the kid after guidance from her parents. I don't think inflexible roles are needed, just critical thinking and communication skills. This is just a hypothetical - modeled after my own 12 year old who "shrugs" her way through decisions (frustrating). My point is - it's not "inflexible". It's pre-decided. Everyone on this thread is jumping to a conclusion that the woman has no agency. I whole-heatedly disagree! There are things that I handle and things that a hypothetical "he" would handle. We each know more about those areas than the other because we live them and deal with them every day - we're more "studied" in those areas because they are our respective realms. I am not saying I have more right to pick out dishes if "he" happens to be "the one who picks out the furnishings". It would be pre-communicated that he picks the furniture and dishes and handles it. I would give my opinion and he would take it into account and pick the damn dishes and not bother me with the FUCKING dishes. **I know this is minutia. I am trying to demonstrate that the traditional gender roles need not apply. It is about communication - most importantly, BEFORE and then, on-going.
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Post by DryCreek on Apr 16, 2016 21:55:03 GMT -5
Both husband and wife are equal in their feelings that they are doing best for the child and not budging. Who wins? I would say it would depend on the pre-communicated roles. Which one has the ultimate end-all say in that area? Argument over. Which is why, at the end of the day, the decision must fall to one person. And not necessarily the same person for all areas of the relationship. We can be politically correct and call them the "tie breaker", but at the bottom line they own the decision. That person will not always be right. But their decision needs to be supported, and they should not abuse their authority. (i.e., internally, we will argue, but externally our front is united.) I worked for a company once that was running out of cash; we'd missed our window of opportunity to IPO by a scant 2 weeks. The president made the tough call to turn down a buyout offer, believing a better one would come through. Everyone in leadership was stunned. A few weeks later, that decision cost 600 people their jobs when we closed the doors. We could have debated it endlessly as a group; ultimately, the responsibility rested on him regardless, and he made the call.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2016 21:55:27 GMT -5
I, too, have a hard time with submission. And to be honest, I am not sure when I became controlling. I am not sure if I am the chicken or the egg. If I am being honest, the "big nasty" we had 11 years ago - the incident I suspect was the watershed leading to the downward spiral of my marriage - could have been avoided if I had been a more submissive wife and not entirely my own person. We never had clearly defined roles and we never had discussions about it, so I try really hard not to be too hard on myself about it. In my 20s, I was a feminist - and in all the misguided ways. ... Anyway - I do wish that more people in their 20s explored these roles in pre-marital counseling. I wish the Biblical parts of it were taken out because it takes so long to unpack it and make it make sense, that I cannot even properly explain it. This article explained it better than most. It is not about the sex. It is about respect and the different needs of each party. In my case, it's also about trusting him to be a leader. I no longer can do that, just as I cannot make him figure this out for himself. Wow. First,thanks for to link to your EP story. Second, I identify strongly with your response. I was raised in a Christian household, which I railed against slightly, and later completely rejected. With the exception that I strongly believed that when I committed to marry, I had to stick to it at all costs. ((Silly me.)) And I was aligned with feminism. Also an error because I lost a balanced perspective for my life. instead of marriage counselling all new couples should be evaluated by the Gottmann Institure for their % of success in marriage. That is evidence enough for any future relationship I might commit to. Wait, you lost me on being aligned with feminism being an error. How does the belief that women are people and should have the same opportunities and responsibilities as men so we can take care of ourselves and our families become an error?
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Post by JMX on Apr 16, 2016 22:00:11 GMT -5
Both husband and wife are equal in their feelings that they are doing best for the child and not budging. Who wins? I would say it would depend on the pre-communicated roles. Which one has the ultimate end-all say in that area? Argument over. Which is why, at the end of the day, the decision must fall to one person. And not necessarily the same person for all areas of the relationship. We can be politically correct and call them the "tie breaker", but at the bottom line they own the decision. That person will not always be right. But their decision needs to be supported, and they should not abuse their authority. (i.e., internally, we will argue, but externally our front is united.) I worked for a company once that was running out of cash; we'd missed our window of opportunity to IPO by a scant 2 weeks. The president made the tough call to turn down a buyout offer, believing a better one would come through. Everyone in leadership was stunned. A few weeks later, that decision cost 600 people their jobs when we closed the doors. We could have debated it endlessly as a group; ultimately, the responsibility rested on him regardless, and he made the call. Leadership (in any area) is definitely a burden because everyone makes wrong decisions. A little kindness to whoever ends up with final decision in any area - is necessary! I read that from a dear friend once
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