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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2016 3:04:30 GMT -5
why do we follow a 2000 year old book (I'm talking about Christians here) which endorses slavery, rape and murder in various places? [note: I'n just talking about the religion I was raised in, if I was raised in a different one I'd talk about it as from what little I know the other 2 of the big 3 are just as appalling].
My mother, when I was a teenager who embarked on reading the bible with the intention of going cover to cover and then asked her about some horrible content I found early on, tried to hand-wave away my horror at what I'd read by saying we just follow the new testament and all that horrifying stuff was thrown out with the old testament (well that has some horrifying content as well mom). The answers at church were no better, mostly my peers laughed at my questions and the Sunday school teacher carried on with the sanitized cherry picked verse of the day. The result was I abandoned religion as even if it was true I wanted no part of a religion or god that was ok with the things in that book.
Just random thoughts that were dislodged from my brain by some recent iliasm attempts to reconcile SM justice with religion (I know my solution of tossing it out doesn't work for everyone, I'm just genuinely puzzled why, maybe the fear of eternal damnation was not drilled into me enough? To be honest that's probably it, my rather lax protestant childhood church emphasised the carrot of motivating us with the warm fuzzy parts (I'm ok, you're ok, just believe and you'll be saved) rsther than the stick of punishment (believe and follow these rules or you burn forever and ever and by the way you are terrible).
Too bad I didn't stick to the official script, my life would be easier socially if youth groups and a church community were an option.
Oh hey, while we're on that topic, a potentially constructive last question: fellow non-believers, where might I find a community similar to a church without having to pretend things I don't believe? Really a big Sunday morning book club/group therapy session would be ideal, I guess I kind of answered my own question, but those are a bit more free-form, there is no committe to make sure sick and bereaved members are looked after for example. I've managed this long and I'm stubborn enough to go my whole life without compromising my principles, but it would be nice to have such a support system without having to either compose it from scratch nor lie about my beliefs. Really I'm jealous of my reformed Jewish friends' community, but I can hardly join in there, being neither of the cultural background nor a genuine believer seeking to convert...
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Post by GeekGoddess on Aug 31, 2016 14:25:29 GMT -5
why do we follow a 2000 year old book (I'm talking about Christians here) which endorses slavery, rape and murder in various places? [note: I'n just talking about the religion I was raised in, if I was raised in a different one I'd talk about it as from what little I know the other 2 of the big 3 are just as appalling]. My mother, when I was a teenager who embarked on reading the bible with the intention of going cover to cover and then asked her about some horrible content I found early on, tried to hand-wave away my horror at what I'd read by saying we just follow the new testament and all that horrifying stuff was thrown out with the old testament (well that has some horrifying content as well mom). The answers at church were no better, mostly my peers laughed at my questions and the Sunday school teacher carried on with the sanitized cherry picked verse of the day. The result was I abandoned religion as even if it was true I wanted no part of a religion or god that was ok with the things in that book. Just random thoughts that were dislodged from my brain by some recent iliasm attempts to reconcile SM justice with religion (I know my solution of tossing it out doesn't work for everyone, I'm just genuinely puzzled why, maybe the fear of eternal damnation was not drilled into me enough? To be honest that's probably it, my rather lax protestant childhood church emphasised the carrot of motivating us with the warm fuzzy parts (I'm ok, you're ok, just believe and you'll be saved) rsther than the stick of punishment (believe and follow these rules or you burn forever and ever and by the way you are terrible). Too bad I didn't stick to the official script, my life would be easier socially if youth groups and a church community were an option. Oh hey, while we're on that topic, a potentially constructive last question: fellow non-believers, where might I find a community similar to a church without having to pretend things I don't believe? Really a big Sunday morning book club/group therapy session would be ideal, I guess I kind of answered my own question, but those are a bit more free-form, there is no committe to make sure sick and bereaved members are looked after for example. I've managed this long and I'm stubborn enough to go my whole life without compromising my principles, but it would be nice to have such a support system without having to either compose it from scratch nor lie about my beliefs. Really I'm jealous of my reformed Jewish friends' community, but I can hardly join in there, being neither of the cultural background nor a genuine believer seeking to convert... Try Unitarian or any Buddhist temples. You may find a mindfulness center. I don't know your city/town size. Wiccan groups. AA or similar (a 12-step like Al-Anon is great for a nondrinker, from what they tell me - I haven't joined that one ... Yet) |
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Post by eternaloptimism on Aug 31, 2016 15:09:55 GMT -5
The commune will be like that @helentishappy  See my new avatar x |
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Post by wewbwb on Aug 31, 2016 15:16:16 GMT -5
It all depends on what you believe in.
But please realize that they all have pros and cons.
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Post by unmatched on Aug 31, 2016 19:13:32 GMT -5
I think any community, even the best ones, will tend to have some kind of underlying belief system. And it is hard to get involved in a community without their beliefs insidiously creeping in and changing the shape of your own. Especially if it is one that is supportive and that will help you grow. But there are a lot of benefits too, and if you are careful (and can be strong in yourself) the benefits will often outweigh the price. I was involved in a couple when I was younger (in my twenties) - one built around a self-development training and the other a meditation community. And I found both incredibly helpful, both changed my beliefs somewhat, and the second in particular I found very hard to leave even when the costs began to outweigh the benefits. But if you are looking for support, you will definitely find options in those directions and if you are careful some of them will be very good.
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Post by obobfla on Aug 31, 2016 20:49:04 GMT -5
I remember being in an AA chat room many years ago on AOL. A guy was on who said he was drunk. Said he couldn't stop. When someone asked why he could stop, he said he was mad at God. About six people typed in the same line - "Get a new God!"
To me, God is the elephant, and we are all blind men grabbing different parts. There is no way of knowing whether God is real or not. I'm beginning to agree with Marx, who said that religion is the opiate for the masses. It's a drug all right. Some people can take it in moderation, but there are too many who abuse it.
As to finding a church, I have AA. I also have my family mental health support group, which has been great for me. There are lots of other groups, volunteer opportunities, and so forth. I would hope there is a Sunday morning greyhound owners' group!
@helentishappy, I can understand wanting the church community. Growing up Catholic, I learned to separate my religion from my spirituality. But the Catholic Church and I got too far apart, and I decided not to go back. I needed to sleep in Sunday mornings anyway. Hope you find something.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 6:03:34 GMT -5
FSM Ramen!  |
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Post by Isabellas39 on Sept 1, 2016 7:15:47 GMT -5
why do we follow a 2000 year old book (I'm talking about Christians here) which endorses slavery, rape and murder in various places? [note: I'n just talking about the religion I was raised in, if I was raised in a different one I'd talk about it as from what little I know the other 2 of the big 3 are just as appalling]. My mother, when I was a teenager who embarked on reading the bible with the intention of going cover to cover and then asked her about some horrible content I found early on, tried to hand-wave away my horror at what I'd read by saying we just follow the new testament and all that horrifying stuff was thrown out with the old testament (well that has some horrifying content as well mom). The answers at church were no better, mostly my peers laughed at my questions and the Sunday school teacher carried on with the sanitized cherry picked verse of the day. The result was I abandoned religion as even if it was true I wanted no part of a religion or god that was ok with the things in that book. Just random thoughts that were dislodged from my brain by some recent iliasm attempts to reconcile SM justice with religion (I know my solution of tossing it out doesn't work for everyone, I'm just genuinely puzzled why, maybe the fear of eternal damnation was not drilled into me enough? To be honest that's probably it, my rather lax protestant childhood church emphasised the carrot of motivating us with the warm fuzzy parts (I'm ok, you're ok, just believe and you'll be saved) rsther than the stick of punishment (believe and follow these rules or you burn forever and ever and by the way you are terrible). Too bad I didn't stick to the official script, my life would be easier socially if youth groups and a church community were an option. Oh hey, while we're on that topic, a potentially constructive last question: fellow non-believers, where might I find a community similar to a church without having to pretend things I don't believe? Really a big Sunday morning book club/group therapy session would be ideal, I guess I kind of answered my own question, but those are a bit more free-form, there is no committe to make sure sick and bereaved members are looked after for example. I've managed this long and I'm stubborn enough to go my whole life without compromising my principles, but it would be nice to have such a support system without having to either compose it from scratch nor lie about my beliefs. Really I'm jealous of my reformed Jewish friends' community, but I can hardly join in there, being neither of the cultural background nor a genuine believer seeking to convert... I don't believe the bible endorses rape,slavery, or murder... When Cain killed Abel he was punished ..The bible will speak of the past as any history book would, and I don't think anyone believes the history books condone all the things mentioned. Christians live in the New Testament ...Jesus preached about loving one another, and treating others the way you would want to be treated.. There are quite a few Christian churches that emphasizes the need for intimacy in marriage in their couples classes... I think people lump Catholics and all others that follow the bible into one whole group..People can read the same book and have very different views. There are grounds for divorce in the bible , and again there are many Christians who are divorced and living their lives without worrying about eternal damnation..Heck, my church has groups for those going through divorce. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 9:27:24 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 10:41:27 GMT -5
The Bible doesn't explicitly say you should commit for example genocide and mass sexual slavery. However there were instances where the God of the Bible commanded these things. Now, if God cannot commit evil, he cannot command evil. Therefore God can only command good things. Therefore in the Bible's estimation genocide and sexual slavery are good things.
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Post by Rhapsodee on Sept 1, 2016 14:35:35 GMT -5
Helen, you rock. Sign me up for the support group.
Read the "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong. The Bible is essentially how mankind perceived God.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 14:52:45 GMT -5
Helen, you rock. Sign me up for the support group. Read the "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong. The Bible is essentially how mankind perceived God. Thanks for the book suggestion, I just read the Amazon description and it sounds really good. As she is apparently a former nun her viewpoint will be especially interesting to read. Also, this blurb intrigues me to find out more: she was instrumental in creating, launching and propagating the Charter for Compassion, a global, multifaith cooperative effort to restore compassionate thinking and action to the center of religious, moral and political life. And apparently she wrote a book called "12 steps for a compassionate life," which sounds like something I could use right now also. I'm excited! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 15:06:11 GMT -5
why do we follow a 2000 year old book (I'm talking about Christians here) which endorses slavery, rape and murder in various places? [note: I'n just talking about the religion I was raised in, if I was raised in a different one I'd talk about it as from what little I know the other 2 of the big 3 are just as appalling]. My mother, when I was a teenager who embarked on reading the bible with the intention of going cover to cover and then asked her about some horrible content I found early on, tried to hand-wave away my horror at what I'd read by saying we just follow the new testament and all that horrifying stuff was thrown out with the old testament (well that has some horrifying content as well mom). The answers at church were no better, mostly my peers laughed at my questions and the Sunday school teacher carried on with the sanitized cherry picked verse of the day. The result was I abandoned religion as even if it was true I wanted no part of a religion or god that was ok with the things in that book. Just random thoughts that were dislodged from my brain by some recent iliasm attempts to reconcile SM justice with religion (I know my solution of tossing it out doesn't work for everyone, I'm just genuinely puzzled why, maybe the fear of eternal damnation was not drilled into me enough? To be honest that's probably it, my rather lax protestant childhood church emphasised the carrot of motivating us with the warm fuzzy parts (I'm ok, you're ok, just believe and you'll be saved) rsther than the stick of punishment (believe and follow these rules or you burn forever and ever and by the way you are terrible). Too bad I didn't stick to the official script, my life would be easier socially if youth groups and a church community were an option. Oh hey, while we're on that topic, a potentially constructive last question: fellow non-believers, where might I find a community similar to a church without having to pretend things I don't believe? Really a big Sunday morning book club/group therapy session would be ideal, I guess I kind of answered my own question, but those are a bit more free-form, there is no committe to make sure sick and bereaved members are looked after for example. I've managed this long and I'm stubborn enough to go my whole life without compromising my principles, but it would be nice to have such a support system without having to either compose it from scratch nor lie about my beliefs. Really I'm jealous of my reformed Jewish friends' community, but I can hardly join in there, being neither of the cultural background nor a genuine believer seeking to convert... I don't believe the bible endorses rape,slavery, or murder... When Cain killed Abel he was punished ..The bible will speak of the past as any history book would, and I don't think anyone believes the history books condone all the things mentioned. Christians live in the New Testament ...Jesus preached about loving one another, and treating others the way you would want to be treated.. There are quite a few Christian churches that emphasizes the need for intimacy in marriage in their couples classes... I think people lump Catholics and all others that follow the bible into one whole group..People can read the same book and have very different views. There are grounds for divorce in the bible , and again there are many Christians who are divorced and living their lives without worrying about eternal damnation..Heck, my church has groups for those going through divorce. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, I'm looking for my people. In real life I don't have a space to go to meet with like-minded people. In fact it doesn't feel safe to say I am a non believer to most people in my real life. I have close friends who are devout believers of various sects and faiths and I leave them with their beliefs and stay in the closet about my own because while their beliefs don't prevent me being their friend, expressing my beliefs would prevent them being mine. Our beliefs can coexist I believe, as long as you don't impose your values on me, I won't impose mine on you. After this thread I'll be back to my usual closet, no worries. |
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Post by Isabellas39 on Sept 1, 2016 15:47:45 GMT -5
I don't believe the bible endorses rape,slavery, or murder... When Cain killed Abel he was punished ..The bible will speak of the past as any history book would, and I don't think anyone believes the history books condone all the things mentioned. Christians live in the New Testament ...Jesus preached about loving one another, and treating others the way you would want to be treated.. There are quite a few Christian churches that emphasizes the need for intimacy in marriage in their couples classes... I think people lump Catholics and all others that follow the bible into one whole group..People can read the same book and have very different views. There are grounds for divorce in the bible , and again there are many Christians who are divorced and living their lives without worrying about eternal damnation..Heck, my church has groups for those going through divorce. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, I'm looking for my people. In real life I don't have a space to go to meet with like-minded people. In fact it doesn't feel safe to say I am a non believer to most people in my real life. I have close friends who are devout believers of various sects and faiths and I leave them with their beliefs and stay in the closet about my own because while their beliefs don't prevent me being their friend, expressing my beliefs would prevent them being mine. Our beliefs can coexist I believe, as long as you don't impose your values on me, I won't impose mine on you. After this thread I'll be back to my usual closet, no worries. Helen, it doesn't bother me at all that we have different views on this topic. I just gave my opinion. We actually are similar when it comes to live and let live ..I agree wholeheartedly, that people can coexist .I do believe that online we get to speak our truths and sometimes we may disagree, but in no way it means we can't be friends . |
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Post by petrushka on Sept 2, 2016 4:22:55 GMT -5
I remember being in an AA chat room many years ago on AOL. A guy was on who said he was drunk. Said he couldn't stop. When someone asked why he could stop, he said he was mad at God. About six people typed in the same line - "Get a new God!" To me, God is the elephant, and we are all blind men grabbing different parts. There is no way of knowing whether God is real or not. I'm beginning to agree with Marx, who said that religion is the opiate for the masses. It's a drug all right. Some people can take it in moderation, but there are too many who abuse it. As to finding a church, I have AA. I also have my family mental health support group, which has been great for me. There are lots of other groups, volunteer opportunities, and so forth. I would hope there is a Sunday morning greyhound owners' group! @helentishappy , I can understand wanting the church community. Growing up Catholic, I learned to separate my religion from my spirituality. But the Catholic Church and I got too far apart, and I decided not to go back. I needed to sleep in Sunday mornings anyway. Hope you find something. Often mis-quoted. Marx said "religion is the opium OF the masses" |
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