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Post by petrushka on Sept 2, 2016 4:40:29 GMT -5
I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, I'm looking for my people. In real life I don't have a space to go to meet with like-minded people. In fact it doesn't feel safe to say I am a non believer to most people in my real life. I have close friends who are devout believers of various sects and faiths and I leave them with their beliefs and stay in the closet about my own because while their beliefs don't prevent me being their friend, expressing my beliefs would prevent them being mine. Our beliefs can coexist I believe, as long as you don't impose your values on me, I won't impose mine on you. After this thread I'll be back to my usual closet, no worries. I can empathize, Helen: it is good to have a space to go and meet with like minded people. It is not good that you don't feel safe to say that you are a non-believer, and that's one thing that I personally resent with most fervent believers in whatever faith, whatever religion: they want everybody to think like them. The do not tolerate other-ness. Fortunately they are not all like that, my personal history has a lot of people in it who were clerics who were entirely open minded, who were searchers for truth in their faith without resenting anyone for not sharing in that faith. Who would discuss their faith with me, and the basis of their morality. But these people, I am sorry to say, are rare. They are the highly educated elite, by and large (but not only). Those who use religion as their opium, to re-quote Bob and Marx, they do not like to have things questioned. It's threatening their world. (I on the other hand, have to question *everything*). In the end, I think you have to try and find your peers wherever they are. I had a group of peers when I was teaching at university. I had a group of peers when I was teaching language, and again I had a group of peers when I moved, years later, in to a valley full of hippies and alternative lifestylers. None of these communities persisted. That seems to be the way of life. My last haven started to dissolve 20 years ago - and I have attempted to find companionship in various online activities, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. Now having moved to a new town not quite two weeks ago, the whole thing starts all over again, from nothing. So it goes. Like you, I thirst for the companionship of people with whom I can talk openly, and who are able and prepared to listen, or even just comfortable in silence. Who, at times, will ask the right questions. ;-) |
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Post by petrushka on Sept 2, 2016 4:54:35 GMT -5
Helen, you rock. Sign me up for the support group. Read the "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong. The Bible is essentially how mankind perceived God. Spinoza (1632-1677) recognized: "god did not create man in his image, man created god in his image" hence began modernist theology. When I see what comes out of many evangelical mouths, I think the news has not yet spread to many places on the globe. In the theology that I was taught, That Book is a historical theological document that narrates and documents the evolution of the faith through the centuries; it is not the fount of all wisdom, nor is it the container of absolute truth. Reading up on Spinoza on Wikipedia and following all the links and cross-references is a fascinating journey if you're interested in the topic at all. My personal take is: you don't have to do that - if you simply are a non believer and content to be a non believer - why should you have to travel that way. For me , traveling that road was part of growing up (irrespective of the fact that I've considered myself an agnostic since I was 8 years old). |
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Post by baza on Sept 2, 2016 5:03:43 GMT -5
Partially quoting you here Sister Helen - " a potentially constructive last question: fellow non-believers, where might I find a community similar to a church without having to pretend things I don't believe? "
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I'll put this out there for consideration.
If you've got a personal belief system, a code of ethics, (call it what you will) - do you actually NEED a community, a group, (call it what you will) ??
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Post by petrushka on Sept 2, 2016 8:13:46 GMT -5
Partially quoting you here Sister Helen - " a potentially constructive last question: fellow non-believers, where might I find a community similar to a church without having to pretend things I don't believe? " - - I'll put this out there for consideration. If you've got a personal belief system, a code of ethics, (call it what you will) - do you actually NEED a community, a group, (call it what you will) ?? A "reality check", if you want to call it that, is never wasted. And bouncing our ideas of other people who understand always helps to sharpen the mind and bring out the best ideas -- at least that's how it works for me. |
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Post by Rhapsodee on Sept 2, 2016 11:56:16 GMT -5
Helen, you rock. Sign me up for the support group. Read the "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong. The Bible is essentially how mankind perceived God. Spinoza (1632-1677) recognized: "god did not create man in his image, man created god in his image" hence began modernist theology. When I see what comes out of many evangelical mouths, I think the news has not yet spread to many places on the globe. In the theology that I was taught, That Book is a historical theological document that narrates and documents the evolution of the faith through the centuries; it is not the fount of all wisdom, nor is it the container of absolute truth. Reading up on Spinoza on Wikipedia and following all the links and cross-references is a fascinating journey if you're interested in the topic at all. My personal take is: you don't have to do that - if you simply are a non believer and content to be a non believer - why should you have to travel that way. For me , traveling that road was part of growing up (irrespective of the fact that I've considered myself an agnostic since I was 8 years old). Spinoza was an amazing man. I had read about him years ago. It was good to go back and re-read his bio. I too was about 8 when I realized that what I was being taught by the church was wrong. I felt sorry for the poor tortured person that was hanging on the cross, but he wasn't God. I could not worship him. Cult: a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object. If a person's religion completes them, I'm happy for them. I just wish they could respect my difference as I do theirs. I wish they could see me as someone that strives to be a good person. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2016 20:26:48 GMT -5
Partially quoting you here Sister Helen - " a potentially constructive last question: fellow non-believers, where might I find a community similar to a church without having to pretend things I don't believe? " - - I'll put this out there for consideration. If you've got a personal belief system, a code of ethics, (call it what you will) - do you actually NEED a community, a group, (call it what you will) ?? I for one would like a community. This spring, I realized just how much I need other people, while I was between jobs. As far as belief systems go...I think what I don't like about them is that they are systems. People think they can force life and people and the universe to fit into a neat little set of rules, like a geometry proof. But life and people and the universe aren't that neat and orderly. Feelings can be like a tidal wave or a hurricane and destroy everything in their path. Or, they can be like a gentle bay tide going in and out. But no set of rules, no set of principles, no religion, can ever fit people and their feelings into a neat little predictable system. There's always going to be something that doesn't quite fit. And an occasional tidal wave. I wanted to believe in some kind of God, but without having to accept preposterous stories, and without having to obey stupid rules that make no logical sense to me. I finally solved that problem by coming to believe that the world's religions are probably mostly wrong about God. God is supposed to be better (smarter, more moral, etc.) than humans - right? So, if something is so stupid or so bad that I wouldn't do it - then God wouldn't do it either. And any "holy" book that says he would, is full of b.s. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Sept 2, 2016 20:57:50 GMT -5
when it comes to my belief in God, there is only one God. Can I or any human fully understand it? never. That is the glory, and magnificence of God. For every new scientific, spiritual, emotional, fact that humans discover, it can lead to ten more questions. I try to not second guess or outsmart God.
Call me a cherry picker ,perhaps because I still have much to learn, there are so many undeniable truths, wealth's of information, knowledge about life's tribulation, short-comings, and grandeur that I learn personally from reading the bible myself,sharing and learning with and from others. That's more of what I yearn for. Not ceremonial religion. (marriage can get that way to,...ceremonial)
I grew up Roman Catholic, years of being an Alter boy, training others. i could do an entire mass myself from memorization! I remember coming home when I was 19 yrs old, after living alone for a while and going to church with my parents. this time i listened, intently, with a skeptical attitude. once home I asked my parents," what did Father M. say today? what scripture did he read? what did it say? did the two have anything to do with each other?" I informed them all about ,how his message had nothing to do with what he read.
My parents had been asking me if I wanted to get confirmed . I politely told them," I wanted to learn more about other religions." They were very open to that. A very important part of adulthood took place then. looking back with a greater understanding of how God works in your life, I thank the Holy Spirit for guiding me. I was still allowed the freedom to choose.
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 2, 2016 23:21:49 GMT -5
As far as belief systems go...I think what I don't like about them is that they are systems. The problem I have is that "religious organizations" (major denominations or not) are all compromised. [Said with grand sweeping gestures.] That is, they are all tainted by the need to maintain and expand membership, and by the need for money to support their existence. Even if they manage to avoid all the moral temptations of money and power, they inevitably compromise their beliefs to cater to social and political opinions or to increase their money and power (which might be in the form of very well-intentioned programs, not just grandeur). Perhaps this is because today's society is fundamentally based on financial leverage and immediate action/results/gratification. Saving, then doing, is not a modern concept. So, everything depends on regular cashflow. Haven't saved enough money yet for that outreach program? No problem, it'll wait. But don't have enough cashflow to cover the mortgage on the building? You'd better believe that influences this week's sermon. Even well-intentioned, they easily become compromised. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Sept 3, 2016 5:42:34 GMT -5
As far as belief systems go...I think what I don't like about them is that they are systems. The problem I have is that "religious organizations" (major denominations or not) are all compromised. [Said with grand sweeping gestures.] That is, they are all tainted by the need to maintain and expand membership, and by the need for money to support their existence. Even if they manage to avoid all the moral temptations of money and power, they inevitably compromise their beliefs to cater to social and political opinions or to increase their money and power (which might be in the form of very well-intentioned programs, not just grandeur). Perhaps this is because today's society is fundamentally based on financial leverage and immediate action/results/gratification. Saving, then doing, is not a modern concept. So, everything depends on regular cashflow. Haven't saved enough money yet for that outreach program? No problem, it'll wait. But don't have enough cashflow to cover the mortgage on the building? You'd better believe that influences this week's sermon. Even well-intentioned, they easily become compromised. Very well said DryCreek (as always)! Running a church is a business. Reaching the masses is a business. Many a church leader gets caught up, and stumbles in the business of "religion." I strongly prefer a church that leads by example, of going out daily and reaching out to others, instead of having them come to you. that's where I like the emphasis on,what can I do daily for myself ,and others with the knowledge of Gods word that I learned myself. Also breaking off into smaller groups' [like this one on SM,now even smaller about religion] can be helpful. It gives you a much greater freedom to open up, receive, or reject things as you come to understand them better. |
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 3, 2016 13:02:40 GMT -5
Agreed, greatcoastal. And not to imply I'm against religion; quite the contrary. I'm just very bothered by the distractions they let leak in. As you say, the best form is probably small groups, meeting in homes, for example. Which, frankly, puts the onus on individuals to actually study and be knowledgeable on their own. I think a lot of people who show up on Sunday are looking to get their "holiness tank" conveniently topped off from the pulpit. I'll admit that while I used to be more capable of the former, that hasn't been the case for a long time. And yes, I think a smaller group format lends itself to a lot more interactive discussion, not a top-down interpretation that tends to get warped. I think, too, that people forget that outreach is a lot more than knocking on doors like some religions are known for. It's about social programs that just do good for people and lead by example. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2016 3:24:33 GMT -5
@helentishappy I second the suggestions of Unitarian Universalist or Buddhist groups, and would add the Bahai and Religious Society of Friends/Quakers (should you wish to stay in a more traditional Christian ideology). But, a knitting circle, book club, bridge club, bicycle or running club, or any group based on one of your hobbies/interests can fill your need for meaningful interactions, without the religious component. You can experience the wonder of being of/part of the Earth and/humankind by doing a series of day-long/short-term volunteer projects (like Habitat for Humanity or a Beach Cleanup Day) again, without the religious component. Rhapsodee suggested Karen Armstrong's book, which is terrific. I liked Fr. Jim Martin's book "The Abbey," a novel (fiction) about three very different people working through questions of Faith and their lives. I follow Fr. Jim on social media, but first saw him on "The Colbert Report," as a frequent guest. Since, I identify as a Progressive Catholic (in the vein of Joe Biden, the Kennedys, Tim Kaine or Martin O'Malley) his explanations and insights rang familiar, yet updated for our current world, to me (Fr. Jim entered priesthood after leaving a successful corporate career at GE). Support groups are good places to start, because you'll be surrounded by folks who have/are experiencing some of the same things you are. They can serve as a launching point for self-discovery. Adult camps (just like summer camps for kids) are another thought, as are Outward Bound-type programs. They take you out of your everyday environment, place you in nature, and challenge your mind and body, differently, than corporate team-building/retreats. |
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Post by LITW on Sept 7, 2016 15:53:02 GMT -5
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Post by wewbwb on Sept 7, 2016 16:11:37 GMT -5
So this is a case of "you can believe anything you want as long as you agree with me." Nice. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2016 17:01:23 GMT -5
I know how you feel LITW. I don't typically share my beliefs because I don't fit into anyone's "definition" of what they think I should believe. I also dislike the judging from all sides. Whoa. When did you change your avatar to your adorable face wewbwb? |
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Post by wewbwb on Sept 7, 2016 17:09:18 GMT -5
When I got bored.  |
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