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Post by csl on Aug 27, 2016 12:16:56 GMT -5
Learned this from Mark Twain:
“Still, it is better to be alone than unwelcome.”
Complete Diary of Eve
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Post by ted on Aug 27, 2016 16:29:23 GMT -5
Yes, I’ve been blessed with an extraordinary amount of excellent advice by you all, and I’m grateful. This community is a lifeline. Please forgive my thrashing about while I come to terms with whatever my situation is.
I must not be the first here to struggle with whether the advice truly applies to my situation. It all seems right when you’re talking about your (ex-)spouses, but you don’t know my wife. She’s not hostile or mean or cunning. She’s friendly. She seems sincere. She’s attractive. Everyone would tell you she’s nice, generous, caring, and wouldn’t hurt a fly—a better person than me. We have four wonderful kids. I married her, for heavens sake.
It’s hard to imagine her being actively, intentionally manipulative. She seems kind of innocently naive. It feels like she sincerely sees emotions, communication, priorities, and whatnot differently, and she’s pretty confident that I see things wrongly. She always has a good reason why she got mad, or went silent for weeks, or canceled counseling, or whatever.
If you saw us together at birthdays, or recitals, or exchanging the kids, you’d never know something was desperately wrong. In fact, she’s oddly nonchalant and friendly whenever we’re in proximity no matter how earth-shattering the topic being discussed behind the scenes.
And then there was the reset sex last year. She seemed pretty into it; I was the hesitant one. And when I said “Wait, you like this?” she said “Of course, I love sex!”
So we can’t actually be talking here about my wife, the childhood sweetheart with whom I’ve spent fifteen years building a life—can we?
I’m going mad trying to integrate the sexless, verbally abusive, lonely, fifteen years I’ve suffered with the picture of her I described above. She wants me to believe she just made some honest mistakes.
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Post by unmatched on Aug 27, 2016 17:15:42 GMT -5
ted you don't have to start hating her or come to see her as evil. You don't even have to do stop loving her. But as you say she sees emotion and sex and communication differently from you and she believes she is right. So how often has she ever been willing to bend? How often has she been more interested in your feelings, your needs, your desires than in what she thinks? To what extent has your happiness been a priority for her? And do you believe that going forward she will do whatever it takes to make sure that you feel happy, loved, wanted, desired and fulfilled? Because that is what you deserve (and need) from a partner.
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Post by baza on Aug 27, 2016 18:30:23 GMT -5
Whether the refuser is "nice" about it - or "mean" about it doesn't matter.
Whether the refuser is "deliberately" behaving this way - or whether the behaviour is completely "natural" to them doesn't matter either.
Whether the refuser is "consciously" behaving this way - or whether its is "accidental" doesn't matter.
Whether the refuser is using it as a manipulative tool - or is just being themself, it doesn't matter.
Whether the refuser is doing it out of "malice" - or "ignorance", matters not a bit.
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The damage to your psyche, your self esteem, your ego, your mental health, your physical health, your happiness level is THE SAME irrespective of the refusers motivation.
"Nice" refuser or "Nasty" refuser.
It makes no difference.
You are getting striped up just the same.
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It's akin to an illness, say diabetes as an example.
You may have contracted it due to lifestyle and dietary choices you made, or perhaps by heredity causes, or perhaps random bad luck.
But the treatment regime won't alter, whatever the cause may have been.
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Post by warmways on Aug 27, 2016 19:11:33 GMT -5
In a healthy marriage you shouldn't have to spend years trying to figure out why your spouse is refusing. I know everyone says marriage is hard but it shouldn't be this hard. It's possible to change your mindset and see the stark reality for what it is. It can take a while to think a different way but when you begin to see how her actions will never change and that you're worth so much more than this, things will become clearer. When you're still in pursuer mode or waiting to see how she really feels mode, she keeps you unsettled and off balance. It's such a painful and frustrating way to live. I'm sorry you're dealing with this. It really sucks.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Aug 28, 2016 18:28:44 GMT -5
And then there was the reset sex last year. She seemed pretty into it; I was the hesitant one. And when I said “Wait, you like this?” she said “Of course, I love sex!”
OMG - how did you NOT blurt out "with who?"
My ex is a perfectly nice person. His being emotionally stunted didn't happen until years into our deal. It doesn't make him a bad person. I have a bad reaction to him. I need to interact with someone who would like to show me some concern. Not just: his hobbies, the house & property, his three kids, his fishing trips, his purchases, etc. Those "other" items in the world still got "his best" but it was just me that no longer did. He was "good at" and "nice about" nearly everything EXCEPT being a husband. It doesn't make him a bad person. It just makes him my ex-husband. Because all I have any control over is whether I accept his treatment of me. I did not - not any longer. So I had to go. It is not because he is mean. He just is who he is. And I changed from a spouse who "thought it was normal" to one that "didn't mind - THAT much" to one that thought, WTF am I doing with this guy? So I had to go.
Good luck, Ted -- I think the struggle to accept reality is a daily challenge for most of us, whether we tune into that or not. In some way or another, most of walk about with blind spots and think certain things about people - assuming good motivations of them, when in reality, we have no idea what their real motivations are. Good luck discerning whether you think you deserve a shit marriage or a chance at something different. I cast my own vote for me and that's all I can really do.
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Post by JMX on Aug 28, 2016 21:34:29 GMT -5
ted - my husband has put on what I call - the full court press. It has made me stay. The difference? He was so very cold and callous specifically about 8 months ago to about 2 months ago. Wouldn't say a word, would not give me an inch. Silence. It was heart-breaking. We have many more issues than just sexlessness. We have issues that cover financial aspects down to who does what! And Goodness! Tell me you love me every once in awhile! I went to my third lawyer in 2 years. I loved this lawyer. I got all the information I needed, I had my support system in tact. I paid him for two meetings! I tried to discuss an amicable separation, trying to get him on board with a simple divorce. It blew up in my face. He started trying. He is doing well at work and did (for a time) take burdens off of me around the house (I did everything and nothing well). Our yard looked good, our pool got blue. He started in with the chivalry. I say all of this because were it not for any of this, I would not still be here with him. I had and was executing my plan. The kids were even told! IUn-telling them is much harder when you are now "not sure". (Just a side-note for all) Has the pace kept up? Not exactly. The yard is almost back to a mess. The pool is back to green. I still handle the finances and he has not opened one bill to date (even when he was putting on the charm). He does notice when I do things he should be handling now. He seems sorry about it. He steps in and corrects when this happens. That would have never happened before. There are various reasons for his slips which I will not get into here - I will post about it later when I have had more time to think about it... But! Sex is now much more frequent and not bad. He calls me all the time to just talk to me. I know he values my friendship - maybe our marriage? He hugs me. He comes to me and tells me about his day and what he is working out. He says sweet things - the "I love yous", the "you complete me" which is cheesy and funny but it was genuine! I know he does love me. I am only not sure what that love means and, more importantly, I am not sure if that love is enough for me. I am not entirely sure I still love him. I am not sure I want to be with him anymore. I am heavily weighing this. What does this long, boring comment have to do with you? It reads as if you are fighting for something by yourself. She is not buying it. Leave and leave decidedly. Let her come to you, if that's what you want. Everything you do to win her back is annoying her (as it reads). If she feels it the same as you, she will express it - even in her own weird way. Right now, she is not. She even had you removed from the counseling sessions. Umm... That's kind of fucked up? This does not look good Ted. This looks bad. She is not trying and you are begging. In the least! Stop begging. She is not getting anything from your words or poems. She is not feeling it for you or maybe anything. Let it alone and see what happens. Disclaimer: I am no success story. I am a work in progress. He let it alone and I was going to leave. I was actually excited to leave. When he saw that I refused to try anymore and that I was serious, he changed. Kind of. I have no idea what the future holds, but I will no longer beg for his attention or his affection OR any small chore around the house. All of this begging gets you exactly nothing. Stop it already.
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Post by itsjustus on Aug 30, 2016 11:06:39 GMT -5
ted you don't have to start hating her or come to see her as evil. You don't even have to do stop loving her. But as you say she sees emotion and sex and communication differently from you and she believes she is right. So how often has she ever been willing to bend? How often has she been more interested in your feelings, your needs, your desires than in what she thinks? To what extent has your happiness been a priority for her? And do you believe that going forward she will do whatever it takes to make sure that you feel happy, loved, wanted, desired and fulfilled? Because that is what you deserve (and need) from a partner. Wow. I think unmatched has it exactly right, not only for ted but for all people in a committed relationship. You don't have to see your SO as evil, or hate them. You can even love them like crazy! But do they show, actually show, an interest in fulfilling your needs...... like unmatched said, Because it's what we all deserve....and need. Well said unmatched, well said. |
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Post by cagedadventurer on Aug 30, 2016 15:52:05 GMT -5
ted,
your avatar reflects the sadness I have felt for years as I'd drive to work each morning. Usually by noontime, I would "heal" from another rejection and by day end, repeat the same "get along niceties" followed physical avoidance. This has gone on for years. Some evenings as I'd drive an hour home, I listened to some Barry Manilow songs (ah, I admitted this) as some are so appropriate to refusers. But I recall getting so saddened once-almost hopeless, I had to eject the CD and trash it at the next gas stop.
I could never believe that I, a person who wants to take in everything life offers, could get depressed. But lately, I think it is happening! So little matters anymore. Any trip or adventure to see something would be alone or with the kids only but I really want to enjoy life as an adult and with an adult too. She is pleasant, etc. but I'm alone.
What goes through my head so often of late is that of all the days I have left early for work, up early to catch a plane, etc. ONLY ONCE has she gotten up to see me off and that turned out to be because her cat was in the garage and she wanted to make sure it did not get out when I opened the door! I will never expect to hear "I Love You". But if I saw it in real action, by way of actual concern for my well being, my brain would likely hear those words and I'd smile as I headed out.
BTW, I'm working from home today. She has made herself somewhat available so IF I were to press the issue, she'd have sex but I will not ask again, I will not beg. I'm playing avoid-er now - so as to not be that rat which gets intermittent rewards to keep him in line.
All this being responsible stuff, being a good husband and father carries little significance to the one we are devoted to. They just like the free ride.
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Post by ted on Aug 30, 2016 22:02:36 GMT -5
Wow cagedadventurer, I'm so sorry. I know what you're feeling. It’s crazy—I could tell those *exact* same stories (minus the Barry Manilow). That daily cycle of healing, hoping, and hurting is a bitch. I’ve left and returned from countless business trips, but not once has she taken me to or picked me up from the airport. I distinctly remember coming home in the evening from a week or two overseas and rummaging around the house all by myself, having a bowl of cereal, and eventually finding her in bed watching Netflix on her iPad. Gee, I’m eager to see you too. I’d usually get a command to find her and “give me a kiss in case you die” before I saw myself to the door. If only. |
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Post by baza on Aug 31, 2016 0:21:14 GMT -5
Brothers chris, and ted,
where ted says ". . . I would "heal" from another rejection and by day end. . ." I'd like to comment on.
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I believe that every rejection does actually chip a bit of you off. I don't think you actually "heal" from each one and recover fully ready to absorb 'the next rejection'.
I think EVERY one of them stripes you up, little by little, until large chunks of you have gone.
It is an insidious process, it sneaks up on you, and a time comes where a 'new' rejection, painful in and of itself, brings up innumerable 'past' rejections for you to experience all over again.
I believe that there is a real "accumulation" in play in these situations.
You may think that you got over that rejective incident your spouse perpetrated at Joes BBQ back in 2003, but another 'new' rejection is likely to bring back a vivid memory of that incident, and numerous others.
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Post by unmatched on Aug 31, 2016 0:32:15 GMT -5
Brothers chris, and ted, where ted says ". . . I would "heal" from another rejection and by day end. . ." I'd like to comment on. - I believe that every rejection does actually chip a bit of you off. I don't think you actually "heal" from each one and recover fully ready to absorb 'the next rejection'. I think EVERY one of them stripes you up, little by little, until large chunks of you have gone. It is an insidious process, it sneaks up on you, and a time comes where a 'new' rejection, painful in and of itself, brings up innumerable 'past' rejections for you to experience all over again. I believe that there is a real "accumulation" in play in these situations. You may think that you got over that rejective incident your spouse perpetrated at Joes BBQ back in 2003, but another 'new' rejection is likely to bring back a vivid memory of that incident, and numerous others. I would totally second that. I think you end up with layer upon layer upon layer of scar tissue, but you are so used to living with it that you don't even notice it is there any more. Until you get to that point that everyone was talking about yesterday where you can't feel any attraction for your spouse any more because all the nerves are dead. |
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Post by GeekGoddess on Aug 31, 2016 22:15:07 GMT -5
Brothers chris, and ted, where ted says ". . . I would "heal" from another rejection and by day end. . ." I'd like to comment on. - I believe that every rejection does actually chip a bit of you off. I don't think you actually "heal" from each one and recover fully ready to absorb 'the next rejection'. I think EVERY one of them stripes you up, little by little, until large chunks of you have gone. It is an insidious process, it sneaks up on you, and a time comes where a 'new' rejection, painful in and of itself, brings up innumerable 'past' rejections for you to experience all over again. I believe that there is a real "accumulation" in play in these situations. You may think that you got over that rejective incident your spouse perpetrated at Joes BBQ back in 2003, but another 'new' rejection is likely to bring back a vivid memory of that incident, and numerous others. I would totally second that. I think you end up with layer upon layer upon layer of scar tissue, but you are so used to living with it that you don't even notice it is there any more. Until you get to that point that everyone was talking about yesterday where you can't feel any attraction for your spouse any more because all the nerves are dead. I also concur with this. I tolerated & tolerated (not just rejections related to sex, any form of intimacy, and an icky failed make out session but also the various forms of passive/aggressive narcissism and power/control issues) - until one day I could not. I could no longer "un-know" all of the things. They all, years of them, come flooding up at some point and it feels very like the way that PTSD is described. The current slight "in this moment" is not just the current one - it pulls with it YEARS of bad treatment and I would "over-react" according to coldfish refuser - except to me it was not an over-reaction, it was "making up for" all the prior years of not reacting and of stuffing my emotions so that I wouldn't upset HIS apple cart. It got me worried for my own sanity and behavior. Once I moved out of the toxic living environment, the change to not adding on more insults to me self-esteem gave me a CHANCE to recover from it. As long as it continues, I think the longer it will take to recover from. |
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 31, 2016 22:46:18 GMT -5
I would totally second that. I think you end up with layer upon layer upon layer of scar tissue, but you are so used to living with it that you don't even notice it is there any more. Until you get to that point that everyone was talking about yesterday where you can't feel any attraction for your spouse any more because all the nerves are dead. I also concur with this. I tolerated & tolerated (not just rejections related to sex, any form of intimacy, and an icky failed make out session but also the various forms of passive/aggressive narcissism and power/control issues) - until one day I could not. I could no longer "un-know" all of the things. They all, years of them, come flooding up at some point and it feels very like the way that PTSD is described. The current slight "in this moment" is not just the current one - it pulls with it YEARS of bad treatment and I would "over-react" according to coldfish refuser - except to me it was not an over-reaction, it was "making up for" all the prior years of not reacting and of stuffing my emotions so that I wouldn't upset HIS apple cart. It got me worried for my own sanity and behavior. Once I moved out of the toxic living environment, the change to not adding on more insults to me self-esteem gave me a CHANCE to recover from it. As long as it continues, I think the longer it will take to recover from. Boy, do I know that one. When things that should be too small to care about really, really rub you the wrong way. I realize it's a straw on top of a very large pile I've been grinning and bearing. |
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Post by itsjustus on Sept 5, 2016 7:21:56 GMT -5
The damage done by years of rejection, all the years of sex, affection, and intimacy being "off the table" or even taboo, have left scars on me. Some I wasn't even aware of. I'm in a very loving relationship now, and yet even now, three years after my escape, I find that I keep discovering new signs of those SM-PTSD type of issues.
I'm sitting here at a beautiful place, the morning sun rising from the horizon, my love is fast asleep in the bedroom, looking absolutely angelic in her slumber, after a night of sweet love making and I'm feeling on top of the world. She is kind, loving, accepting. She too comes from a SM, she knows what that lack of affection and intamcy feels like. She is patient with me, totally encouraging, and understands. We are wild and free with our emotions, our feeling for each other, and our enjoyment of what our body's have to offer each other.
Yet just last night, while enjoying an incredible session of love making, she "performed" something what was once taboo, a no-no, a non-starter with my ex. It felt so incredible, but my brain kicked in, wondering...."Oh oh. Is she comfortable? Am I leaning on her too hard? Is she getting tired? Is she wondering if I'm ever going to GET THERE??" And I had to stop. I looked at her and apologized. I am so damn glad, in a way, that she too knows where I've been, what I've gone thru....and lovingly re-assured me that it was ok, that time would heal, and that she would be right there with me to help us both get thru those repressed feelings. That we would together...get back to "normal".
I regret those years wasted in a SM, but we will get there. The journey is incredible. I am a lucky, lucky man.
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